Jetstar Pilot Council Snubs AIPA
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Longjohn,Keg and others.You can bleat as much as you like but this variation has won through.I personally don't like it and nor do most of the people who voted it up.As others have mentioned previously in this thread Jetstar pilots are not the only ones who have felt they had to accept substandard pay and conditions due to various reasons.Nat Jet did it,Qantas longhaul did it and now Jetstar have done it.Apart from a few we will stand by you from various posters on this forum and a couple of words of support and contempt on qrewroom we have not had anybody come forward with any concrete offer of real support or plan in the event that we voted this variation down.
The president of AIPA sent us all emails exhorting us to vote no, but did not offer any plan or real support to us as a group.Mr Woods I wouldn't think of approaching us again untill you seriously have all Qantas group pilots welfare at heart and actually display as much.Untill then I doubt we will be very interested.Qantas group pilots are all of them and not just the ones you feel threataned by.So any approach to Jetstar pilots should coincide with approaches to Eastern, Sunstate etc,etc,etc.
Open your eyes AIPA and imagine what could be done if your leader proves strong enough to unite all these pilots.
The president of AIPA sent us all emails exhorting us to vote no, but did not offer any plan or real support to us as a group.Mr Woods I wouldn't think of approaching us again untill you seriously have all Qantas group pilots welfare at heart and actually display as much.Untill then I doubt we will be very interested.Qantas group pilots are all of them and not just the ones you feel threataned by.So any approach to Jetstar pilots should coincide with approaches to Eastern, Sunstate etc,etc,etc.
Open your eyes AIPA and imagine what could be done if your leader proves strong enough to unite all these pilots.
Originally Posted by Big Jan
Open your eyes AIPA and imagine what could be done if your leader proves strong enough to unite all these pilots.
Even Jesus took a few years to perform his first miracle !!
J.P.
I'll try again, more slowly this time. I thought I had quite succinctly recognised most of your points, even ascribing some merit to your thoughts.
So;
- I would love to know how to vote against 'nepotism or contract pilots or management job sweeteners' when it can't be proven and AIPA can't force a vote on the company.
- voting 'yes to pay increases below the inflation rate' is never palatable but more believable when your pilot group is demonstably at the 'top of the heap' depending on your perspective. What intrigues me is how a possible pay cut while near the bottom of the remuneration tree (among jet jobs in Oz) can be so tarted up as such a good deal.
- AIPA members (mostly not the ones who imposed it) showed maturity and, at not inconsiderable cost, voted out the domestic 'B scales for their fellow members', so what's your point again?
- Mistakes... AIPA has made so many but why would anyone not wish to learn from that. J* negotiated with the same adversarial consultants as have faced AIPA. Super-resourced, charging around $5000 per day I'm told, and tasked with skillfully convincing pilots that anything other than the offer on the table is unrealistic/unattainable/withdrawable. But a component of whatever they cleverly withhold from well-intentioned-ameteur pilot-negotiators goes into some desk-wallah's bonus! Yes, in my book AIPA have been naive too, but your committee had the benefit of all that and still actively endorsed a typically AIPA outcome for much less money than an established benchmark! Bit of a shame really.
- if 'signing off on an EBA effectively endorses the company’s position' then what has just happened? "Pot to Kettle, over"
- 'we will all be Airbus Captains within 3 years of start-up'. Perhaps, but I'm not sure who's sounding more arrogant now... If that's what you live for you're welcome to it on the conditions you've won. Perhaps that's what the J* majority wanted; so low that it's not worth many others cutting in?
There's a lot of water to go under the bridge before I jump off it. I've probably chosen words poorly because I'm really not anti anyone who can do the job. I'm disappointed but not angry at anyone who's been faced with an intimidating choice. I'm annoyed that IR has come to this though.
I just hope that market forces, common sense and finally some spine will allow all QF pilots, including J*, to progress in reasonable time to a reasonable command on reasonable pay and conditions.
Tell 'im 'e's dreamin'...
I'll try again, more slowly this time. I thought I had quite succinctly recognised most of your points, even ascribing some merit to your thoughts.
So;
- I would love to know how to vote against 'nepotism or contract pilots or management job sweeteners' when it can't be proven and AIPA can't force a vote on the company.
- voting 'yes to pay increases below the inflation rate' is never palatable but more believable when your pilot group is demonstably at the 'top of the heap' depending on your perspective. What intrigues me is how a possible pay cut while near the bottom of the remuneration tree (among jet jobs in Oz) can be so tarted up as such a good deal.
- AIPA members (mostly not the ones who imposed it) showed maturity and, at not inconsiderable cost, voted out the domestic 'B scales for their fellow members', so what's your point again?
- Mistakes... AIPA has made so many but why would anyone not wish to learn from that. J* negotiated with the same adversarial consultants as have faced AIPA. Super-resourced, charging around $5000 per day I'm told, and tasked with skillfully convincing pilots that anything other than the offer on the table is unrealistic/unattainable/withdrawable. But a component of whatever they cleverly withhold from well-intentioned-ameteur pilot-negotiators goes into some desk-wallah's bonus! Yes, in my book AIPA have been naive too, but your committee had the benefit of all that and still actively endorsed a typically AIPA outcome for much less money than an established benchmark! Bit of a shame really.
- if 'signing off on an EBA effectively endorses the company’s position' then what has just happened? "Pot to Kettle, over"
- 'we will all be Airbus Captains within 3 years of start-up'. Perhaps, but I'm not sure who's sounding more arrogant now... If that's what you live for you're welcome to it on the conditions you've won. Perhaps that's what the J* majority wanted; so low that it's not worth many others cutting in?
There's a lot of water to go under the bridge before I jump off it. I've probably chosen words poorly because I'm really not anti anyone who can do the job. I'm disappointed but not angry at anyone who's been faced with an intimidating choice. I'm annoyed that IR has come to this though.
I just hope that market forces, common sense and finally some spine will allow all QF pilots, including J*, to progress in reasonable time to a reasonable command on reasonable pay and conditions.
Tell 'im 'e's dreamin'...
Well said longjonn !!
Somebody will be getting a nice bonus out of all this. And Geoff Dixon & co would have to be looking at J* pilots crewing the 380 now.
Shouldn't be hard to set up. A380 crewing company, CCQ J* A330 pilots onto type for " Virgin Blue conditions of service".
Shouldn't be hard to set up. A380 crewing company, CCQ J* A330 pilots onto type for " Virgin Blue conditions of service".
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Jetsbest…
‘I would love to know how to vote against 'nepotism or contract pilots or management job sweeteners' when it can't be proven.’ All are proven. nepotism: cross check the names on your pilot list, contract pilots: Impulse operations 1991-1994, management job sweeteners: cross check past AIPA committee names against past and current management names.
‘AIPA members (mostly not the ones who imposed it) showed maturity and, at not inconsiderable cost, voted out the domestic 'B scales for their fellow members', so what's your point again?’. I seem to recall AIPA pilots voted yes to B scales for S/Os and new hires only a few months ago.
There is no evidence that AIPA pilots have ever made any initiative to eradicate B scales from the Qantas pilot group. They have only sought to isolate themselves above it, much to their ineptitude. It is plain as day the AIPA pilots only give a stuff about themselves and their future (now bleak) prospects. If they are given the opportunity, it will be very, very interesting to see how many AIPA pilots jump at the chance of a quick Airbus promotion on Jetstar conditions. I expect many. Hypocrites.
‘I would love to know how to vote against 'nepotism or contract pilots or management job sweeteners' when it can't be proven.’ All are proven. nepotism: cross check the names on your pilot list, contract pilots: Impulse operations 1991-1994, management job sweeteners: cross check past AIPA committee names against past and current management names.
‘AIPA members (mostly not the ones who imposed it) showed maturity and, at not inconsiderable cost, voted out the domestic 'B scales for their fellow members', so what's your point again?’. I seem to recall AIPA pilots voted yes to B scales for S/Os and new hires only a few months ago.
There is no evidence that AIPA pilots have ever made any initiative to eradicate B scales from the Qantas pilot group. They have only sought to isolate themselves above it, much to their ineptitude. It is plain as day the AIPA pilots only give a stuff about themselves and their future (now bleak) prospects. If they are given the opportunity, it will be very, very interesting to see how many AIPA pilots jump at the chance of a quick Airbus promotion on Jetstar conditions. I expect many. Hypocrites.
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What is really sad is the fact that the true JQ boys and girls will never get to fly the A330 or 787.
AJ and MW (with JG's hand up his back) will bring in experienced pilots to fly the 330. When the 787 turns up. the senior JQ pilots will still be inexperienced international pilots. "Gosh, our experienced 330 mate will have to fly the 787". Bad luck, but thanks for voting the EBA up.
You think I'm wrong?
Rick, you will be long remembered. AJ and Oldmeadow wont even know your name when the day of reckoning comes.
AJ and MW (with JG's hand up his back) will bring in experienced pilots to fly the 330. When the 787 turns up. the senior JQ pilots will still be inexperienced international pilots. "Gosh, our experienced 330 mate will have to fly the 787". Bad luck, but thanks for voting the EBA up.
You think I'm wrong?
Rick, you will be long remembered. AJ and Oldmeadow wont even know your name when the day of reckoning comes.
Holy sh*t!
Just saw the (ballpark) numbers on the Jetstar EBA vote and it's not like it just scraped home! Good work guys
And I thought us mainline drivers were d1ckheads for voting in EBA7. At least that was "only" a 58% majority.
Just saw the (ballpark) numbers on the Jetstar EBA vote and it's not like it just scraped home! Good work guys
And I thought us mainline drivers were d1ckheads for voting in EBA7. At least that was "only" a 58% majority.
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Time for AIPA's new COM to show Australian Professional Pilot's what they are capable of......
This deal stinks of underhanded, manipulating and threating behaviour from QF and JETSTAR Management....From what I can gather many pilots at JETSTAR were left with little choice due to the 'possibilities' of a NO vote...
This is a continuation of the inevitable 'TRANSMISSION OF BUSINESS' from QF Mainline to JETSTAR.....
When will people wake up to what is happening.....This must be addressed by the AIPA and the Industrial Relations Commission - at least whilst it still exists...
And for those not in the cut-throat Aviation game....watch this space... If QF Management get away with this - other companies and Industries will follow...a very very sad state of affairs for many in the Australian workforce...
This deal stinks of underhanded, manipulating and threating behaviour from QF and JETSTAR Management....From what I can gather many pilots at JETSTAR were left with little choice due to the 'possibilities' of a NO vote...
This is a continuation of the inevitable 'TRANSMISSION OF BUSINESS' from QF Mainline to JETSTAR.....
When will people wake up to what is happening.....This must be addressed by the AIPA and the Industrial Relations Commission - at least whilst it still exists...
And for those not in the cut-throat Aviation game....watch this space... If QF Management get away with this - other companies and Industries will follow...a very very sad state of affairs for many in the Australian workforce...
J.P. again..
Nepotism. You believe it, I believe it, but it's always legally defensible because they can recruit who they want when they want, especially to 'management'. NO association, not even the JPC could stop that! It's just not our trainset. For example, outrage at back-dated seniority for a recent block of cadets sent to the two-year 'industry experience program' merely resulted in a re-wording of the deal; QF hired them (ie seniority number) then 'allowed' them immediate leave-without-pay for two years. It's their trainset. But that couldn't happen in J* could it?
S/Os in Singapore. You believe it, I believe it, but saying it does not make it so. I've met several current S/Os who want to go. I've even met a couple who are annoyed that, not being on the -400, will therefore not be offered a basing. Both the company and AIPA's lead negotiator at the time all swore 'it's a good deal!' Sound familiar? The flip side of course that even J* pilots offered QF jobs (yes it does happen) now have to weigh up the chance of being initially based in SIN, and I know pilots from various backgrounds who've said they will decline a job if that occurs. Who knows, maybe even QF will have trouble recruiting soon.
Bleak prospects. Not at all! I'm waiting for our Chief Pilot to give us some reason for the optimism he says we should all have after the contrived way QF has played this issue. QF had, in AIPA, the most compliant, rational, non-militant and appeasing professional association imaginable to work with, until it found a way to increase bonuses to a few by circumventing that oft-touted good working relationship. The continued QF posturing has only hardened and disenfranchised many, hence the electoral success of a 'new broom' at AIPA. QF continue to make the job of AIPA committee people hard by threat and re-interpretatoin of past agreements, but at least the realisation has dawned on many pilots that you get only what you negotiate and no-one is in managment to respect and look after you. I feel sure that this truth will also be evident to J* pilots in time. But on an optimistic note, I'm confident that QF will go on growing and providing a product of quality and value to our customers through the efforts of its professional workers, generating world-class profits (and bonuses for some), while negotiating efficiencies where they can be found to benefit both the employees and the company.
As for 'If they are given the opportunity, it will be very, very interesting to see how many AIPA pilots jump at the chance of a quick Airbus promotion on Jetstar conditions. I expect many. Hypocrites.' There you go exaggerating again. Such a decision is for each individaul to make because all are obviously in different circumstances. The 'official line' never reflects the view of everyone always. The J* contract has created a new playing field down the hill from a very good ground but, having lobbied against it's construction, each AIPA pilot will make their own judgement about whether they should try to join the new game now that the field is just about completed... or is it? And will J* pilots lead by example, welcoming any pilot choosing to do so, or merely mirror the worst verbal excesses of a few QF yobs? (Among 2400 people there's bound to be a few yobs, and I observe that J* is no different)
I can tell we're not going to reach agreement but thanks for the input. I hope in a few years that you will be closer to my current work conditions than I am to yours. That is what AIPA is trying to address. But whoever turns out to be correct, let's agree not to do the 'I told you so'.
S/Os in Singapore. You believe it, I believe it, but saying it does not make it so. I've met several current S/Os who want to go. I've even met a couple who are annoyed that, not being on the -400, will therefore not be offered a basing. Both the company and AIPA's lead negotiator at the time all swore 'it's a good deal!' Sound familiar? The flip side of course that even J* pilots offered QF jobs (yes it does happen) now have to weigh up the chance of being initially based in SIN, and I know pilots from various backgrounds who've said they will decline a job if that occurs. Who knows, maybe even QF will have trouble recruiting soon.
Bleak prospects. Not at all! I'm waiting for our Chief Pilot to give us some reason for the optimism he says we should all have after the contrived way QF has played this issue. QF had, in AIPA, the most compliant, rational, non-militant and appeasing professional association imaginable to work with, until it found a way to increase bonuses to a few by circumventing that oft-touted good working relationship. The continued QF posturing has only hardened and disenfranchised many, hence the electoral success of a 'new broom' at AIPA. QF continue to make the job of AIPA committee people hard by threat and re-interpretatoin of past agreements, but at least the realisation has dawned on many pilots that you get only what you negotiate and no-one is in managment to respect and look after you. I feel sure that this truth will also be evident to J* pilots in time. But on an optimistic note, I'm confident that QF will go on growing and providing a product of quality and value to our customers through the efforts of its professional workers, generating world-class profits (and bonuses for some), while negotiating efficiencies where they can be found to benefit both the employees and the company.
As for 'If they are given the opportunity, it will be very, very interesting to see how many AIPA pilots jump at the chance of a quick Airbus promotion on Jetstar conditions. I expect many. Hypocrites.' There you go exaggerating again. Such a decision is for each individaul to make because all are obviously in different circumstances. The 'official line' never reflects the view of everyone always. The J* contract has created a new playing field down the hill from a very good ground but, having lobbied against it's construction, each AIPA pilot will make their own judgement about whether they should try to join the new game now that the field is just about completed... or is it? And will J* pilots lead by example, welcoming any pilot choosing to do so, or merely mirror the worst verbal excesses of a few QF yobs? (Among 2400 people there's bound to be a few yobs, and I observe that J* is no different)
I can tell we're not going to reach agreement but thanks for the input. I hope in a few years that you will be closer to my current work conditions than I am to yours. That is what AIPA is trying to address. But whoever turns out to be correct, let's agree not to do the 'I told you so'.
A good example (an awe full one really) was the National Jet crews agreeing to a pay cut and paying for the B717 rating as well in order to get the gig.
The difference being the Jetstar group HAVE jobs and there is no need to be bringing every body down to their level. LOW as LOW can be, financially and morally
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Get your facts straight. No 717 pilot was going to fly the Qantaslink contract for less than what they where on, that was at the time $125 000 and where already endorsed.
Why Airlink pilots agreed to less money then above is beyond me.
Why Airlink pilots agreed to less money then above is beyond me.
The fact that you guys were PERPARED to take others jobs is what drove it. pretty much as you are doing now.
NJS pilots were aware that there were no endorsement costs for Jetstar pilots. That was a huge saving for them in the tender process.
To RETAIN our jobs we had no choice.
If I say what i really think I will get banned so just imagine what I think and you will be close I am sure.
NJS pilots were aware that there were no endorsement costs for Jetstar pilots. That was a huge saving for them in the tender process.
To RETAIN our jobs we had no choice.
If I say what i really think I will get banned so just imagine what I think and you will be close I am sure.
Get your facts straight.
The point is, not ONE JQ pilot will be out of a job as a result of the current exercise, whereas 100 NJS pilots would have been, no questions asked. Just ask the 727 drivers over at AAe about having their aircraft replaced.
The two situations are completely different and you do yourself no favours by sledging the NJS troops.
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"Nepotism.... For example, outrage at back-dated seniority for a recent block of cadets sent to the two-year 'industry experience program' merely resulted in a re-wording of the deal; QF hired them (ie seniority number) then 'allowed' them immediate leave-without-pay for two years. "
Seniority nos weren't back-dated. They were issued shortly after graduation. The complaints have been over the fact that there hasn't been any formal statement from QF that cadets were employees (although de facto in reality) and therefore should or shouldnt they be entitled to seniority. These matters were discussed at length previously on this site.
Seniority nos weren't back-dated. They were issued shortly after graduation. The complaints have been over the fact that there hasn't been any formal statement from QF that cadets were employees (although de facto in reality) and therefore should or shouldnt they be entitled to seniority. These matters were discussed at length previously on this site.
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At last the lights are coming on, but it is all over, the fat lady has left the building!!
The seniority discussion is amusing. JQ flaunts seniority all the time. They do not apply by pass! All the management pilots at JQ are so junior that they could not hold a command in their own right.
How will they introduce International flying with the 330. Simple, employ 40 instant captains or extend the 2 year short term instant captains who are currently employed. After all they are very experienced. Theory? No. A mate of mine at EK has already been given the nod. It is not about money he and his family want to live in Melbourne.
The current 717 captains and the wonderful F/O's who will be getting their 320 commands in the next 12 months, will never ever get near the 330.
Something else, CASA will allow 320 / 330 dual endorsements. If QF pilots are not careful, CM at GD's direction will dual endorse 330 / 380 pilots. What QF wont do it? Give the 380 to JQ. Al's boys will fly the 320 / 380 under an AWA. The pay rate is set. The JQ pilots voted for a wide body pay rate. Check the definitions!
And what happens next? Well, the JQ 320 boys and girls will not have any international experience. Damn. They wont be able to fly the 787.
Those lucky AN junior pilots who are flying the 320. By passing the seniority system again.
By the way, who is running Flying now. Saw Mark Niceguy in the terminal, he isn't. F/O Gissing was at all the JPC company meetings not Mark He is AJ right hand man now. Could it be he has his hand up MW's back until he completes his command training?
The seniority discussion is amusing. JQ flaunts seniority all the time. They do not apply by pass! All the management pilots at JQ are so junior that they could not hold a command in their own right.
How will they introduce International flying with the 330. Simple, employ 40 instant captains or extend the 2 year short term instant captains who are currently employed. After all they are very experienced. Theory? No. A mate of mine at EK has already been given the nod. It is not about money he and his family want to live in Melbourne.
The current 717 captains and the wonderful F/O's who will be getting their 320 commands in the next 12 months, will never ever get near the 330.
Something else, CASA will allow 320 / 330 dual endorsements. If QF pilots are not careful, CM at GD's direction will dual endorse 330 / 380 pilots. What QF wont do it? Give the 380 to JQ. Al's boys will fly the 320 / 380 under an AWA. The pay rate is set. The JQ pilots voted for a wide body pay rate. Check the definitions!
And what happens next? Well, the JQ 320 boys and girls will not have any international experience. Damn. They wont be able to fly the 787.
Those lucky AN junior pilots who are flying the 320. By passing the seniority system again.
By the way, who is running Flying now. Saw Mark Niceguy in the terminal, he isn't. F/O Gissing was at all the JPC company meetings not Mark He is AJ right hand man now. Could it be he has his hand up MW's back until he completes his command training?
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Today is the saddest day in Australian Aviation history, we are now no longer considered the professionals that we are, our conditions are gone for ever and they are never coming back. The word has already gone out in Asia guys, so don't complain about your conditions in a couple of years because our northern partners will not hear of it, you read between the lines!
God speed and good luck to the lot of you!
God speed and good luck to the lot of you!