Race to the Bottom PART II
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Race to the Bottom PART II
Will Jetstar pilots set a new record low in the race to the bottom?
It would appear that Jetstar pilots are closing on a settlement which, if agreed by management will reap the lowest paid widebody International pay rates in the Western World. In fact, I dare say many third world countries would offer more.
WHY? I have no idea.
For job security?...
For advancement?...
Perhaps to shove it up Qantas pilots? (and catch DJ in the net too)....
Only 5 years ago when you joined an airline flying jets there were certain expectations you had in your career..
An income in the top 2-5% of Salaried workers
Job security.
Roster stability.
Bidding rights.
More than 8-9 days off per month.
Company provided training.
Seniority.
a decent award
and...............
RESPECT.
Now it appears that has all been thrown on the altar in favour of god only knows what.
Why don't / can't Australian pilots look beyond the next 12 months?
If (when) Jetstar management capitulate (sic.) to the ludicrous claims of the IPG, the result will:
- Be the lowest rate of widebody pay in the Asia Pacific region (yes, even lower than Garuda)
- Create pressure on not only QF but VIRGIN BLUE INTERNATIONAL pilots as well.
- Have little real effect on Jetstar Captains pay.
So, questions for the Impulse pilots:
Given that you are prepared to further denegrate the position of Airline Pilots in Australia;
- Are you aware of the consequences of your actions?
- Are you really that desperate?
- Have you thought of the future?
- Have you asked Trevor, Alan and co. if they are being paid the lowest executive renumeration in the Western world for Airline Executives?
- Do you like putting money in Alan, Geoff and Trevors pockets?
- Are you proud of your auspicious positions?
Our forebears were able to live fruitfully and comfortably as airline pilots, they could buy houses in nice suburbs, purchase nice cars, send their children to good schools. They had decent rosters, company provided training and enjoyed respect in the community, from management and other pilots at large. They retired into a comfortable lifestyle befitting a professional who worked hard for a career.
Future LCC (and some current) airline pilots in Australia can look forward to living in the burbs at best, or renting with all the other wannabee's, driving a falcon or second hand pretender and sending their kids to the local high. They will have company dictated rosters (fun at 55 when you miss Christmas yet again), respect from the local garbo, disrespect from management, contempt from their peers and need to work to 65 just to retire into a crappy 3 bedroom fibro somewhere in bogansville.
But, Geoff will be long dead whilst his children live off your generosity, the shareholders will still see a crap share price and Alan, probably CEO of QF will be laughing himself stupid with every sip of Vintage Krug (it's a very expensive Champagne) at your expense.
Alternatively, like Southern Australia and Jetconnect pilots you will have outlived your usefulness and be relegated to the scrapheap whilst a new breed of hungry young pilots bids to relearn the lessons of the past at your expense. Who knows, maybe DJ Skywest or NJS pilots will find themselves in the same position as Ansett a few years ago and will bid for your work out of necessity.......
Have a real hard think about it boys and girls, if your Union agrees to the terms on offer you will be held in the highest level of contempt by not only QF pilots, but more importantly by your LCC peers whose futures you will also have blackened.
Indeed, the race to the bottom has found a new low.
It would appear that Jetstar pilots are closing on a settlement which, if agreed by management will reap the lowest paid widebody International pay rates in the Western World. In fact, I dare say many third world countries would offer more.
WHY? I have no idea.
For job security?...
For advancement?...
Perhaps to shove it up Qantas pilots? (and catch DJ in the net too)....
Only 5 years ago when you joined an airline flying jets there were certain expectations you had in your career..
An income in the top 2-5% of Salaried workers
Job security.
Roster stability.
Bidding rights.
More than 8-9 days off per month.
Company provided training.
Seniority.
a decent award
and...............
RESPECT.
Now it appears that has all been thrown on the altar in favour of god only knows what.
Why don't / can't Australian pilots look beyond the next 12 months?
If (when) Jetstar management capitulate (sic.) to the ludicrous claims of the IPG, the result will:
- Be the lowest rate of widebody pay in the Asia Pacific region (yes, even lower than Garuda)
- Create pressure on not only QF but VIRGIN BLUE INTERNATIONAL pilots as well.
- Have little real effect on Jetstar Captains pay.
So, questions for the Impulse pilots:
Given that you are prepared to further denegrate the position of Airline Pilots in Australia;
- Are you aware of the consequences of your actions?
- Are you really that desperate?
- Have you thought of the future?
- Have you asked Trevor, Alan and co. if they are being paid the lowest executive renumeration in the Western world for Airline Executives?
- Do you like putting money in Alan, Geoff and Trevors pockets?
- Are you proud of your auspicious positions?
Our forebears were able to live fruitfully and comfortably as airline pilots, they could buy houses in nice suburbs, purchase nice cars, send their children to good schools. They had decent rosters, company provided training and enjoyed respect in the community, from management and other pilots at large. They retired into a comfortable lifestyle befitting a professional who worked hard for a career.
Future LCC (and some current) airline pilots in Australia can look forward to living in the burbs at best, or renting with all the other wannabee's, driving a falcon or second hand pretender and sending their kids to the local high. They will have company dictated rosters (fun at 55 when you miss Christmas yet again), respect from the local garbo, disrespect from management, contempt from their peers and need to work to 65 just to retire into a crappy 3 bedroom fibro somewhere in bogansville.
But, Geoff will be long dead whilst his children live off your generosity, the shareholders will still see a crap share price and Alan, probably CEO of QF will be laughing himself stupid with every sip of Vintage Krug (it's a very expensive Champagne) at your expense.
Alternatively, like Southern Australia and Jetconnect pilots you will have outlived your usefulness and be relegated to the scrapheap whilst a new breed of hungry young pilots bids to relearn the lessons of the past at your expense. Who knows, maybe DJ Skywest or NJS pilots will find themselves in the same position as Ansett a few years ago and will bid for your work out of necessity.......
Have a real hard think about it boys and girls, if your Union agrees to the terms on offer you will be held in the highest level of contempt by not only QF pilots, but more importantly by your LCC peers whose futures you will also have blackened.
Indeed, the race to the bottom has found a new low.
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I agree longjohn....
May I add...
Being an airline pilot is not just about the high salaries and prestige cars, or the private schools in the flashy suburbs etc. Not all pilots live to that extraordinary level. Hopefully many have learned the lessons of a lot of former Ansett pilots, save your money and be wary with your spending habits. There is no need to live such an extravagant lifestyle. You may just get caught out, no job, no savings. Remember Ansett.
The pay we need to demand needs to reflect the fact that the airline industry is a boom or bust industry, and really all pilots should be demanding a decent wage to cover costs for a moderate comfortable lifestyle, with the ability to put a chunk away for 'the day after.'
The race to the bottom will perpetuate the cycle of working poor, as seen in more and more western countries, the US probably being the biggest perpetrator of all. This is where the importance of a solid single (unionised) workforce can really be advantageous; Such as the combining of experience, fresh ideas, and one single, powerful voice.
As much as naive pilots want to help themselves to fast commands in the hope of securing their careers. There is the risk that they will sell themselves (and their coworkers) short.
We start out young, willing to work for peanuts because it is just one person we need to take care of. Before we know it we have a spouse and 2.1 kids to feed and clothe, yet we sold ourselves short years ago. Think about the future. Sustainable income commensurate with experience and position in the company, and an opportunity to save in case that dreaded day comes...hopefully it never will. It is a sad day when an airline goes under.
I applaud the Jetstar guys and gals sticking together and not accepting the initial round of conditions at Jetstar Int. I hope they stick to their guns and have the courage to hold out for what they need.
WP
Being an airline pilot is not just about the high salaries and prestige cars, or the private schools in the flashy suburbs etc. Not all pilots live to that extraordinary level. Hopefully many have learned the lessons of a lot of former Ansett pilots, save your money and be wary with your spending habits. There is no need to live such an extravagant lifestyle. You may just get caught out, no job, no savings. Remember Ansett.
The pay we need to demand needs to reflect the fact that the airline industry is a boom or bust industry, and really all pilots should be demanding a decent wage to cover costs for a moderate comfortable lifestyle, with the ability to put a chunk away for 'the day after.'
The race to the bottom will perpetuate the cycle of working poor, as seen in more and more western countries, the US probably being the biggest perpetrator of all. This is where the importance of a solid single (unionised) workforce can really be advantageous; Such as the combining of experience, fresh ideas, and one single, powerful voice.
As much as naive pilots want to help themselves to fast commands in the hope of securing their careers. There is the risk that they will sell themselves (and their coworkers) short.
We start out young, willing to work for peanuts because it is just one person we need to take care of. Before we know it we have a spouse and 2.1 kids to feed and clothe, yet we sold ourselves short years ago. Think about the future. Sustainable income commensurate with experience and position in the company, and an opportunity to save in case that dreaded day comes...hopefully it never will. It is a sad day when an airline goes under.
I applaud the Jetstar guys and gals sticking together and not accepting the initial round of conditions at Jetstar Int. I hope they stick to their guns and have the courage to hold out for what they need.
WP
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If you have any doubts and know any folk in either J*s, ask them how hard they work and what they can offer for the next round of negotiations. If you are 'flat out' now, what is there to give next time?
Remember, J*Asia has QF JFO/SO's, with 500hrs total, working full months for basic pay...not incentive/fly pay.
Word is that they also have 'freebie' F/Os on the way from Europe whose pay is subsidised by the A320 training school that has provided their endorsement.
It is your life/lofe style; take ownership and enjoy the rewards.
Good luck.
Remember, J*Asia has QF JFO/SO's, with 500hrs total, working full months for basic pay...not incentive/fly pay.
Word is that they also have 'freebie' F/Os on the way from Europe whose pay is subsidised by the A320 training school that has provided their endorsement.
It is your life/lofe style; take ownership and enjoy the rewards.
Good luck.
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If I may beg your indulgence in an analogy.
I often think of certain pilots being akin to a female tragedy.
Our pretty young maiden becomes so besotted with her Handsome and strapping suitor that she opens her virginity to him in the name of love and the hope of a future. Unfortunately she wakes in the morning to discover that he is long gone, however she is not allowed to forget their carnal activities as friends and strangers alike learn of her indiscretion, passing disdainful looks in the street.
Heartbroken and empty she seeks the company of others in a vain attempt to achieve happiness. However, blow by blow she is used and abused.
Before too long our erstwhile maiden is yet again approached by her strapping suitor. Naively she allows him once more have his way, however this time what little respect for her he had has vanished and he seeks to satisfy himself in the most wicked and depraved manner, it is no longer for pleasure but the challenge of how desperate he can make her appear. Again he abandons her in the morning, slinking off to brag to all and sundry of his prowess.
Soon she becomes the prey of all the SLOP's (Short Little Overweight Pricks), desperate to find happiness and respect, even they sense her weakness.
Eventually, brokenhearten and empty she finds herself alone. Viewed as a whore she is reduced to prostitution simply to fill her belly. Her old friends have long since broken their ties with her, fearful that somehow her reputation is contageous, her new friends to her bemusement seem resigned to their plight in an almost encouraging manner.
Watching an attractive woman cross the street with her husband and two children, laughing and smiling as they go, she wonders where she went wrong?
Apologies to our female bretheren, however it is far easier for me to write this from a male persective, no doubt the sexes are interchangeable, either way the message is clear.
I often think of certain pilots being akin to a female tragedy.
Our pretty young maiden becomes so besotted with her Handsome and strapping suitor that she opens her virginity to him in the name of love and the hope of a future. Unfortunately she wakes in the morning to discover that he is long gone, however she is not allowed to forget their carnal activities as friends and strangers alike learn of her indiscretion, passing disdainful looks in the street.
Heartbroken and empty she seeks the company of others in a vain attempt to achieve happiness. However, blow by blow she is used and abused.
Before too long our erstwhile maiden is yet again approached by her strapping suitor. Naively she allows him once more have his way, however this time what little respect for her he had has vanished and he seeks to satisfy himself in the most wicked and depraved manner, it is no longer for pleasure but the challenge of how desperate he can make her appear. Again he abandons her in the morning, slinking off to brag to all and sundry of his prowess.
Soon she becomes the prey of all the SLOP's (Short Little Overweight Pricks), desperate to find happiness and respect, even they sense her weakness.
Eventually, brokenhearten and empty she finds herself alone. Viewed as a whore she is reduced to prostitution simply to fill her belly. Her old friends have long since broken their ties with her, fearful that somehow her reputation is contageous, her new friends to her bemusement seem resigned to their plight in an almost encouraging manner.
Watching an attractive woman cross the street with her husband and two children, laughing and smiling as they go, she wonders where she went wrong?
Apologies to our female bretheren, however it is far easier for me to write this from a male persective, no doubt the sexes are interchangeable, either way the message is clear.
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Not going to make myself any friends here for this post, but for once I agree with P-A-F.
Somehow, airline pilots historically have circumvented the theory of supply and demand. Now that the airlines have decided they will bluff the pilots by invoking that theory, those who have gained so much from the status quo are naturally bitching. I don't blame them; it's only a matter of time before my occupation goes the same way. I think it's called the new world order.
It's not a nice thought to come to grips with, but as long as there are young pilots out there who are busting their guts to fly a jet, the low cost airlines have you all by the balls (sorry ladies, you too). Old hands may be outraged at what's happened to the status of their job, but perhaps they should look deep into their souls and ask what they would have been prepared to do (honestly) to get a jet job.
It's a tough world out there now, ladies and gentlemen, and the "principles" of old, if they ever existed, are no longer relevant. Don't blame the kids; why wouldn't they take $60K a year to fly a jet after being phaarked around in GA for nothing?
Longjohn, your post is admirable in its idealism, but in the end, meaningless. You will get a lot of nods from your fellow travellers, but the ones undercutting you will ignore you completely.
Somehow, airline pilots historically have circumvented the theory of supply and demand. Now that the airlines have decided they will bluff the pilots by invoking that theory, those who have gained so much from the status quo are naturally bitching. I don't blame them; it's only a matter of time before my occupation goes the same way. I think it's called the new world order.
It's not a nice thought to come to grips with, but as long as there are young pilots out there who are busting their guts to fly a jet, the low cost airlines have you all by the balls (sorry ladies, you too). Old hands may be outraged at what's happened to the status of their job, but perhaps they should look deep into their souls and ask what they would have been prepared to do (honestly) to get a jet job.
It's a tough world out there now, ladies and gentlemen, and the "principles" of old, if they ever existed, are no longer relevant. Don't blame the kids; why wouldn't they take $60K a year to fly a jet after being phaarked around in GA for nothing?
Longjohn, your post is admirable in its idealism, but in the end, meaningless. You will get a lot of nods from your fellow travellers, but the ones undercutting you will ignore you completely.
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Not going to make myself any friends here for this post, but for once I agree with P-A-F.
It wasn't that hard to agree with me was it 
Yup, these moves will lead to military pilots slowly losing there "Qualification and Skill" annual pay bonus - but such is life. Where is that Masters enrolment form??
Grandpa Aerotart
So what would you deem fair pay for;
1/. Flying a 717 domestically and,
2/. Flying a widebody twin on international ops longjohn?
I am also curious on what yyou base the 'lowest paid pilots in the world' statement?
1/. Flying a 717 domestically and,
2/. Flying a widebody twin on international ops longjohn?
I am also curious on what yyou base the 'lowest paid pilots in the world' statement?
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Longjohn,
I think you must be talking about Jetstar Asia,
though we just knocked back the crap on offer and rightly so.
if so plese differentiate in you posts, we put a line in the sand and yet continue to listen to this crap.
I think you must be talking about Jetstar Asia,
though we just knocked back the crap on offer and rightly so.
if so plese differentiate in you posts, we put a line in the sand and yet continue to listen to this crap.
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Would any of you in the know care to share exactly what was offered (and apparently knocked back)?
In regard to lowest paid - if you know any Canadians, ask what they get paid to fly long haul. I am a couple of years out of date now with my info, but back in 2003 it was less than $100K Canadian for A330 Capt with Air Transat, C3000 etc. Don't tell GoD!
In regard to lowest paid - if you know any Canadians, ask what they get paid to fly long haul. I am a couple of years out of date now with my info, but back in 2003 it was less than $100K Canadian for A330 Capt with Air Transat, C3000 etc. Don't tell GoD!
Air Transat are still going but were in some very very hot water after they ran a A330 out of fuel and did a glide approach over the Atlantic. That cost them 1/4 million dollars in fines for shonky maintenance amongst other things.
Canada 3000 went broke.
Both of these Carriers were Charter companies not airlines. For a fairer comparison look at the likes of Air Canada, Jazz, Alaskan, and Westjet.
To find out how much less Australian Pilots are paid less compared to our North American friends check out:
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/c.../view/150/103/
Why Canada 3000 went broke:
http://www.cbc.ca/story/news/?/news/...nalysis_011109
Canada 3000 went broke.
Both of these Carriers were Charter companies not airlines. For a fairer comparison look at the likes of Air Canada, Jazz, Alaskan, and Westjet.
To find out how much less Australian Pilots are paid less compared to our North American friends check out:
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/c.../view/150/103/
Why Canada 3000 went broke:
http://www.cbc.ca/story/news/?/news/...nalysis_011109
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Ask yourself this question. Is there any reason for airline managers to improve pilots pay and conditions. Answer...... none. Why?
1 Pilots unions powerless...AFAP, or in companies back pocket Qantas union.
2 Vast oversupply of inexperienced pilots.
3 Managments complete lack of care about the "qualitity" of the pilots they employ.
4 Great leaps in technology that "protect" the pilot from hurting anyone. Flying a Jet has been dumbed down, want proof, read the Boeing manuals, minimal information given.
5 Hatred of pilots by managment, in their eyes we should be paid the same as bus drivers ( thanks Bob).
6 Complete lack of respect for pilots. Virgin ground staff and cabin crew are trained not to respect us. "The aeroplne can land itself".
All this means there is no pressure for airlines to improve anything. With the new industrial relations laws things will only get worse.
The only hope I see for the future is the pool of available pilots drying up as the 17 year olds see how worthless an airline job is nowdays and spend thier money on a career elsewhere. At the other end of the market a great increase in Australian pilots going overseas for better jobs may put pressure on airlines here to retain their pilots. There is a small trickle of Virgin pilots leaving but alas not enough to make management worry.
Its a pretty bleak outlook. I reckon I can last another 5 years then I'm gone!
1 Pilots unions powerless...AFAP, or in companies back pocket Qantas union.
2 Vast oversupply of inexperienced pilots.
3 Managments complete lack of care about the "qualitity" of the pilots they employ.
4 Great leaps in technology that "protect" the pilot from hurting anyone. Flying a Jet has been dumbed down, want proof, read the Boeing manuals, minimal information given.
5 Hatred of pilots by managment, in their eyes we should be paid the same as bus drivers ( thanks Bob).
6 Complete lack of respect for pilots. Virgin ground staff and cabin crew are trained not to respect us. "The aeroplne can land itself".
All this means there is no pressure for airlines to improve anything. With the new industrial relations laws things will only get worse.
The only hope I see for the future is the pool of available pilots drying up as the 17 year olds see how worthless an airline job is nowdays and spend thier money on a career elsewhere. At the other end of the market a great increase in Australian pilots going overseas for better jobs may put pressure on airlines here to retain their pilots. There is a small trickle of Virgin pilots leaving but alas not enough to make management worry.
Its a pretty bleak outlook. I reckon I can last another 5 years then I'm gone!
And where are you going to go CCY?
If it's not to leave aviation altogether, don't you think Australian pilots have taught management abroad a thing or two?
Disappoints me the novelty of flying your shiny red jet about, has worn off so quickly.
If it's not to leave aviation altogether, don't you think Australian pilots have taught management abroad a thing or two?
Disappoints me the novelty of flying your shiny red jet about, has worn off so quickly.
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Longjohn, I suggest you check your numbers again.
A quick check of my cargo buddies revealed that an Evergreen skipper would be lucky to gross 95k USD with all the trimmings – that’s about 120k AUD. Living in NYC is more expensive than SYD by far. Polar and World are similar give or take. Kalitta is the pits. Last time I checked, America was in the western world.
An MD11 cargo skipper buddy of mine with an Oz wife has looked at moving to Australia and found the rates at Jetstar to fly an A320 to be competitive with his current salary.
For every Fedex/UPS driver there are 10 drivers on the bones of their butt.
A quick check of my cargo buddies revealed that an Evergreen skipper would be lucky to gross 95k USD with all the trimmings – that’s about 120k AUD. Living in NYC is more expensive than SYD by far. Polar and World are similar give or take. Kalitta is the pits. Last time I checked, America was in the western world.
An MD11 cargo skipper buddy of mine with an Oz wife has looked at moving to Australia and found the rates at Jetstar to fly an A320 to be competitive with his current salary.
For every Fedex/UPS driver there are 10 drivers on the bones of their butt.
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The sad reality is that until we have a hull loss, nothing will change.
CASA have sat on thier collective hands doing NOTHING about the appalling lack of training that goes on these days.
Pay for your own endorsements yield the absolutely lowest common denominator. They are rushed and not remotely thorough.
Some guys flying jets these days actually think they know what they are doing. If only they knew!!! Minimum experience, minimum training and minimum control of standards is a recipe for a monumental disaster. When all these new a/c starting wearing out, watch for the resultant incident/accident rate increase. Sorry to be negative but reality hurts sometimes. Lets wait and see the results.
Management will have blood on their hands and they will be solely responsible for the outcome.
CASA have sat on thier collective hands doing NOTHING about the appalling lack of training that goes on these days.
Pay for your own endorsements yield the absolutely lowest common denominator. They are rushed and not remotely thorough.
Some guys flying jets these days actually think they know what they are doing. If only they knew!!! Minimum experience, minimum training and minimum control of standards is a recipe for a monumental disaster. When all these new a/c starting wearing out, watch for the resultant incident/accident rate increase. Sorry to be negative but reality hurts sometimes. Lets wait and see the results.
Management will have blood on their hands and they will be solely responsible for the outcome.
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The question is, have wages and conditions for pilots in Australia gone as low as they can?
How many other pilots now working in G.A., or overseas are willing to drop $10k, $20k, $30k below the existing salaries, to fly a shiney new jet for an airline in sunny Australia?
As P-A_F stated, "It's how a democratic non-socialist country works!"
The job may have become "easier", with the development of automation of many systems, and it IS true, aircraft can "land themselves". And as long as everything is correctly programmed, and checked, and nothing goes wrong goes wrong goes wrong, most flight will be uneventful.
However, WHEN (not IF) something(s) does stuff up, guess who wears the FULL responsibility of it?
Because when it does, THAT is when you will realise why pilots are paid more than the 'bus and train drivers with whom management seem to feel our work knowledge and responsibility are on a par.
"Aviation is not in itself inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than even the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect." (Author unknown, circa 1924)
How many other pilots now working in G.A., or overseas are willing to drop $10k, $20k, $30k below the existing salaries, to fly a shiney new jet for an airline in sunny Australia?
As P-A_F stated, "It's how a democratic non-socialist country works!"
The job may have become "easier", with the development of automation of many systems, and it IS true, aircraft can "land themselves". And as long as everything is correctly programmed, and checked, and nothing goes wrong goes wrong goes wrong, most flight will be uneventful.
However, WHEN (not IF) something(s) does stuff up, guess who wears the FULL responsibility of it?
Because when it does, THAT is when you will realise why pilots are paid more than the 'bus and train drivers with whom management seem to feel our work knowledge and responsibility are on a par.
"Aviation is not in itself inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than even the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect." (Author unknown, circa 1924)