Race to the Bottom PART II
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DutchRoll: G'day mate, long time no see.. as you can see some people never change 
The Professor: Wow, finally a well put together post by someone who knows something about Economics -- is this pprune or have a clicked onto some other site?!
The Professor: Wow, finally a well put together post by someone who knows something about Economics -- is this pprune or have a clicked onto some other site?!
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ATTN: Jetstar people
Where do i start here?
How about we all congratulate those 26 pilots who were flying 1900's with Impulse, were rejected by QF, DJ, CX, Dragon, Emirates and couldn't even get a job with AirNZ for the state of the Aus industry at the moment.
Sure Im not making friends with such a provocative post, but I really dont care because I dont frequent these forums often.
These guys were earning peanuts flying their 1900 only because nobody else in the world would give them a job until J* was born. These genius's then put their hands up to fly jets (the "Mr Discount Pilot Airline Guy" theme song comes to mind here) for stuff all $$ because to them it was a pay rise, and they had finally bluffed there way into a jet job.
I understand everybody has their own personal circumstances that they need to consider when accepting a job, but for those 26 morons who were flying with Impulse and started this mess I have absolutely no respect.
And why should I? Thanks to you guys and some of your mates the next 30 odd years of my life are probably going to be fought trying to avoid the crap conditions that you have accepted. Probably not possible though the way things are going.
Do you know that the whole world is laughing at you? Do you sit up there in cruise and talk amongst yourselves about how smart you are for getting all of mainlines flying? Will you complain in 5 years time that you dont get paid enough after accepting these sub par conditions?
If I knew 10 years ago what I knew now I would never have got into the game. Thats the truth.
The only reason I tolerated alot of crap in GA for so long was because of the chance to one day escape into a decent paying job, with decent conditions that allowed a comfortable lifestyle. I would never do the things i did to fly for J* and struggle through life living in the burbs until Im old and crusty.
To anyone starting out in the industry now, or in the early stages of GA - get out now. It isnt easy to say that, but that is my advice to you. What have you got to look forward to? 5 - 8 years living in some isolated dump of a community flying some clapped out 206 / PA31 around the desert to then pay mega $$ (which you dont have) for your own rating to then earn peanuts and fly your ass off? No thanks! And thats the truth guys and girls.
Walk away from the game before it destroys you. You have 26 ex Impulse scabs to thank for that.
Im as passionate about this topic as alot of older guys are about what happened in '89. Its absolutely disgusting. How would you feel (ex Impulse guys) if a group of idiots from somewhere come along in 5 years time and offer themselves for half of what you are earning? How would you feel as you watch your flying, pay and conditions whittle away? Would you respect these guys?
Its much like in GA when some ****** with a shiny new CPL walks in to your boss and offers to wash planes in exchange for flying. Jeez, doesnt this guy realise that the GA boss makes money when his planes fly and will pay guys to fly them?
Despite the fact that I have had a considerable swipe at a small bunch of J* people I am genuinely interested to hear about your morale out there on the line. Whats it like? Sure its great to fly a jet, and the prospect of a quick command sounds good too, but what happens after that? Remember after that your still gonna have 25 odd years left in the game with no prospects to earn much more money. And your still going to be flying your ass off!
I think the excitement would wear off fairly quickly.
J* guys and girls: I think you are worth more, most people in this industry think you are worth more, management CAN afford to pay more. Stand together as one. Infact stand along side all airline pilots in this country, and for the guys that are yet to land an airline gig and demand more money when it comes time to negotiate.
Look at other airlines around the world. Cant you see how badly your peers (yes thats you 26 scabs again) have sold you out here? Dont think for a second that crewing the 787 for A320 +20% (or whatever) is a good deal, because when the gloss wears off (and we all know that it will lets not kid ourselves) you will wish that you were earning what other drivers of your calibre around the world are earning. You deserve nothing less, so dont let some crusty old has-been tell you that 320 + some nominal % is a good opportunity. Do your research and find out what other guys girls are earning for the same job.
This is a very frustrating topic for me and many many of my peers, along with a whole bunch of airline wannabe's that are listening to what is happening to their future career prospects.
Stop selling yourselves short. Join AIPA. After all you are part of the QF group aren't you?
How about we all congratulate those 26 pilots who were flying 1900's with Impulse, were rejected by QF, DJ, CX, Dragon, Emirates and couldn't even get a job with AirNZ for the state of the Aus industry at the moment.
Sure Im not making friends with such a provocative post, but I really dont care because I dont frequent these forums often.
These guys were earning peanuts flying their 1900 only because nobody else in the world would give them a job until J* was born. These genius's then put their hands up to fly jets (the "Mr Discount Pilot Airline Guy" theme song comes to mind here) for stuff all $$ because to them it was a pay rise, and they had finally bluffed there way into a jet job.
I understand everybody has their own personal circumstances that they need to consider when accepting a job, but for those 26 morons who were flying with Impulse and started this mess I have absolutely no respect.
And why should I? Thanks to you guys and some of your mates the next 30 odd years of my life are probably going to be fought trying to avoid the crap conditions that you have accepted. Probably not possible though the way things are going.
Do you know that the whole world is laughing at you? Do you sit up there in cruise and talk amongst yourselves about how smart you are for getting all of mainlines flying? Will you complain in 5 years time that you dont get paid enough after accepting these sub par conditions?
If I knew 10 years ago what I knew now I would never have got into the game. Thats the truth.
The only reason I tolerated alot of crap in GA for so long was because of the chance to one day escape into a decent paying job, with decent conditions that allowed a comfortable lifestyle. I would never do the things i did to fly for J* and struggle through life living in the burbs until Im old and crusty.
To anyone starting out in the industry now, or in the early stages of GA - get out now. It isnt easy to say that, but that is my advice to you. What have you got to look forward to? 5 - 8 years living in some isolated dump of a community flying some clapped out 206 / PA31 around the desert to then pay mega $$ (which you dont have) for your own rating to then earn peanuts and fly your ass off? No thanks! And thats the truth guys and girls.
Walk away from the game before it destroys you. You have 26 ex Impulse scabs to thank for that.
Im as passionate about this topic as alot of older guys are about what happened in '89. Its absolutely disgusting. How would you feel (ex Impulse guys) if a group of idiots from somewhere come along in 5 years time and offer themselves for half of what you are earning? How would you feel as you watch your flying, pay and conditions whittle away? Would you respect these guys?
Its much like in GA when some ****** with a shiny new CPL walks in to your boss and offers to wash planes in exchange for flying. Jeez, doesnt this guy realise that the GA boss makes money when his planes fly and will pay guys to fly them?
Despite the fact that I have had a considerable swipe at a small bunch of J* people I am genuinely interested to hear about your morale out there on the line. Whats it like? Sure its great to fly a jet, and the prospect of a quick command sounds good too, but what happens after that? Remember after that your still gonna have 25 odd years left in the game with no prospects to earn much more money. And your still going to be flying your ass off!
I think the excitement would wear off fairly quickly.
J* guys and girls: I think you are worth more, most people in this industry think you are worth more, management CAN afford to pay more. Stand together as one. Infact stand along side all airline pilots in this country, and for the guys that are yet to land an airline gig and demand more money when it comes time to negotiate.
Look at other airlines around the world. Cant you see how badly your peers (yes thats you 26 scabs again) have sold you out here? Dont think for a second that crewing the 787 for A320 +20% (or whatever) is a good deal, because when the gloss wears off (and we all know that it will lets not kid ourselves) you will wish that you were earning what other drivers of your calibre around the world are earning. You deserve nothing less, so dont let some crusty old has-been tell you that 320 + some nominal % is a good opportunity. Do your research and find out what other guys girls are earning for the same job.
This is a very frustrating topic for me and many many of my peers, along with a whole bunch of airline wannabe's that are listening to what is happening to their future career prospects.
Stop selling yourselves short. Join AIPA. After all you are part of the QF group aren't you?
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The only reason I tolerated alot of crap in GA for so long was because of the chance to one day escape into a decent paying job, with decent conditions that allowed a comfortable lifestyle
Fundamentally, until pilots unite in a cohesive collective, it's a free for all.
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Many of Australia's airline pilots did serious damage to GA, and the wannabies still are doing it. They did not care much about the future of the industry they were in. Do you think they will change if they get an airline job??????
Deluded airline wannabies are undercutting the realist GA pilots, and are largely responsible for the lack of money in GA.
Deluded airline wannabies are undercutting the realist GA pilots, and are largely responsible for the lack of money in GA.
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What planet do you people come from? AngryDriver - leave the industry now and become a brickies labourer - you sound like you fit the bill! Just advertise what company you left so some of the younger guys can take your job.
Employer to 18 year old "Mate, I'll offer you a job flying 182's for $15,000 a year"
18 year old : "Well, I've spent $40,000 because I want a job flying , you are offering me one - but I think those conditions will damage the industry".
please....
Not bad money really when you assess the academic requirements for the job. Let's see , what exactly are the requirements to become a GA pilot.. umm.. I know - I managed to get $40,000 together. Resume complete!
Employer to 18 year old "Mate, I'll offer you a job flying 182's for $15,000 a year"
18 year old : "Well, I've spent $40,000 because I want a job flying , you are offering me one - but I think those conditions will damage the industry".
please....
Not bad money really when you assess the academic requirements for the job. Let's see , what exactly are the requirements to become a GA pilot.. umm.. I know - I managed to get $40,000 together. Resume complete!
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huh?
Col. Kurtz,
I was referring to spending time in GA in general. Lets face it - it sucks. Flying old, barely airworthy planes, living in some place that you really dont want to be, working hard and earning next to nothing for it. No I never offered my services for less than the going rate.
"Fundamentally, until pilots unite in a cohesive collective, it's a free for all."
Exactly my point!
Join AIPA. One pilot union, better job prospects for all.
What have you got to lose? Or rather what have you got to lose by not joining?
And Pass-a-frozo if I knew where the industry was headed when I was starting out I would never have handed over 40K to get my CPL in the first place - because its just not worth it anymore.
I was referring to spending time in GA in general. Lets face it - it sucks. Flying old, barely airworthy planes, living in some place that you really dont want to be, working hard and earning next to nothing for it. No I never offered my services for less than the going rate.
"Fundamentally, until pilots unite in a cohesive collective, it's a free for all."
Exactly my point!
Join AIPA. One pilot union, better job prospects for all.
What have you got to lose? Or rather what have you got to lose by not joining?
And Pass-a-frozo if I knew where the industry was headed when I was starting out I would never have handed over 40K to get my CPL in the first place - because its just not worth it anymore.
Professor,
The free market economy theory is a joke. Every market needs controls.
Lets look at an example. The WTO in their infinite wisdom have decided that controls and quotas on the asian textile industry are "uncompetitive". So instead of a global clothing giant getting their stuff made by paying a Cambodian $1 US per week, they can now get in made in some other pi$$ poor country paying $.90 per week. The cambodian can now no longer feed her kids nor pay for a roof over her head. And do you think your $70 T-shirt is any cheaper in the stores here? And this is globalisation at its best!
Example 2. Look at Enron. The de-regulated energy market gurus. Hold California to ransom, despite their being ample supply, the "free" market was distorted and mainipulated by greed from those intent on fleecing a gazzillion. Blackouts everywhere. Yep, free market at its best.
Economic theory is one thing, reality is another. Economics fails to deal with the simplest of human frailties - greed. The free market economy will ultimately only lead to one thing, the tighter control of capital and its consequential separation of wealth. The rich get richer and bu$$er the rest.
Aviation is no different. Controls avoid exploitation. The world is not flat, economics is just a theory.
No, I am not a communist, but believe there is no such thing as a free market. Sensible controls are needed to maintain balance in an uneven global market. Else we are all at the mercy of the lowest denominator. Strangely, I prefer our living standards to those of many other nations - our standards must be protected.
The free market economy theory is a joke. Every market needs controls.
Lets look at an example. The WTO in their infinite wisdom have decided that controls and quotas on the asian textile industry are "uncompetitive". So instead of a global clothing giant getting their stuff made by paying a Cambodian $1 US per week, they can now get in made in some other pi$$ poor country paying $.90 per week. The cambodian can now no longer feed her kids nor pay for a roof over her head. And do you think your $70 T-shirt is any cheaper in the stores here? And this is globalisation at its best!
Example 2. Look at Enron. The de-regulated energy market gurus. Hold California to ransom, despite their being ample supply, the "free" market was distorted and mainipulated by greed from those intent on fleecing a gazzillion. Blackouts everywhere. Yep, free market at its best.
Economic theory is one thing, reality is another. Economics fails to deal with the simplest of human frailties - greed. The free market economy will ultimately only lead to one thing, the tighter control of capital and its consequential separation of wealth. The rich get richer and bu$$er the rest.
Aviation is no different. Controls avoid exploitation. The world is not flat, economics is just a theory.
No, I am not a communist, but believe there is no such thing as a free market. Sensible controls are needed to maintain balance in an uneven global market. Else we are all at the mercy of the lowest denominator. Strangely, I prefer our living standards to those of many other nations - our standards must be protected.
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OK. I'll bite.
Veryangrydriver,
Wow. What a passionate post. Shame it merely highlighted just how much of a bourbon-swilling inbred you are.
First of all, to which 26 Impulse pilots do you allude? Come on, you seem to know EVERYTHING about how the company operates - give us names! Do you mean the original employees of Oxley? Or some of those who flew J41s for a while? ACC staff? Ex-Ansett pilots who now form an important part of the A320 operation? Ex-89ers (from both sides of the battle)? Or do you instead refer to the 26-ish formerly redundant B1900 pilots who, in line with their termination agreement simply returned to their previous seniority # at the commencement of JQ? There are more than 250 pilots at Jetstar now. Be specific!
Secondly, it might have slipped by your incredibly precise radar that many Jetstar pilots ARE already members of AIPA. But more than a year after access was allowed none of the CoM or their staff have bothered to get in touch with any of us about either our entitlements or, more interestingly, our premiums. That's right, NO CONTACT AT ALL! Makes you feel welcome, that does.
Further, what right does a sociopath such as yourself have to comment on the workings of the Australian airline industry from the sunny shores of the UAE? If indeed you work for EK, has it completely missed you that you work for the company which, perhaps more than any, has pushed the management of Qantas towards a business model which is increasingly focussed on Jetstar?
Finally, let me be perfectly succinct about one issue. It is reactive and judgemental twerps such as your good self who have, more than anyone, been responsible for the wedge that has been driven between "Qantas Pilots" (listen to the angels sing) and everyone else. Seriously, have a read of what you argue. Essentialy, it follows this line:
"You Impulse pilots are all scabs and no-one likes you, but you'd better join OUR union and show SOLIDARITY. Or else.".
Mate, with friends like that, who needs enemies.
Calm down, take a Valium and maybe next time you'll think twice before you single yourself out as the world's most accomplished idiot.
Masalama.
Wow. What a passionate post. Shame it merely highlighted just how much of a bourbon-swilling inbred you are.
First of all, to which 26 Impulse pilots do you allude? Come on, you seem to know EVERYTHING about how the company operates - give us names! Do you mean the original employees of Oxley? Or some of those who flew J41s for a while? ACC staff? Ex-Ansett pilots who now form an important part of the A320 operation? Ex-89ers (from both sides of the battle)? Or do you instead refer to the 26-ish formerly redundant B1900 pilots who, in line with their termination agreement simply returned to their previous seniority # at the commencement of JQ? There are more than 250 pilots at Jetstar now. Be specific!
Secondly, it might have slipped by your incredibly precise radar that many Jetstar pilots ARE already members of AIPA. But more than a year after access was allowed none of the CoM or their staff have bothered to get in touch with any of us about either our entitlements or, more interestingly, our premiums. That's right, NO CONTACT AT ALL! Makes you feel welcome, that does.
Further, what right does a sociopath such as yourself have to comment on the workings of the Australian airline industry from the sunny shores of the UAE? If indeed you work for EK, has it completely missed you that you work for the company which, perhaps more than any, has pushed the management of Qantas towards a business model which is increasingly focussed on Jetstar?
Finally, let me be perfectly succinct about one issue. It is reactive and judgemental twerps such as your good self who have, more than anyone, been responsible for the wedge that has been driven between "Qantas Pilots" (listen to the angels sing) and everyone else. Seriously, have a read of what you argue. Essentialy, it follows this line:
"You Impulse pilots are all scabs and no-one likes you, but you'd better join OUR union and show SOLIDARITY. Or else.".
Mate, with friends like that, who needs enemies.
Calm down, take a Valium and maybe next time you'll think twice before you single yourself out as the world's most accomplished idiot.
Masalama.
Last edited by The Hooker Bear; 17th Dec 2005 at 13:23.
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They (trade unions) protect the incompetent (seniorority) and ensure that inefficiency is built into the system.
The airlines' C & T systems aren't dictated to by unions.
...absurdly outdated testing process at QF
Different airlines employ different systems to sort the chaff from the wheat.
I love reading P-A-F's posts
Here's a guy who has NEVER had any involvement with unions, has NEVER had to work in a competitive, commercial environment, and whose rank is almost guaranteed to continue moving up the longer he stays in the Public Service.
And HE's giving "advice" to true COMMERCIAL operators who must advance THEMSELVES by their own hard work and ingenuity (as opposed to just "sitting there" and waiting to be spoon fed), and turn a PROFIT for their employer.
Keep us entertained, P-A-F
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Thank you for your comments, The The. Unfortunately you have not accurately read my post. At no stage did I advocate a market free of ALL BARRIERS. Like many people, you resort to arguing from a position of absolute.
I believe some barriers should exist to protect employees from the ravages of the market place. The market will generally not reward those who are too old or suffering from physical disability for example. But one would have to admit that the conditions of service enjoyed by the employees of QF spike in comparison to most (if not all) other airlines in the same region, let alone Cambodian textile workers.
Your quota example is correct, the removal of the Multi-Fiber Agreement will have a large impact on the textile workers of Cambodia, but surely the (totally corrupt) Cambodian Government should be held accountable for such a move – the WTO does not enforce membership. Such an example has little relevance when debating the barriers that shelter employees of incumbent airlines though.
Do you think that the controls in place that ensure a QF SO, who, for all intents and purposes doesn’t actually fly, earns as much or more than a competitor’s captain are sensible?
I believe some barriers should exist to protect employees from the ravages of the market place. The market will generally not reward those who are too old or suffering from physical disability for example. But one would have to admit that the conditions of service enjoyed by the employees of QF spike in comparison to most (if not all) other airlines in the same region, let alone Cambodian textile workers.
Your quota example is correct, the removal of the Multi-Fiber Agreement will have a large impact on the textile workers of Cambodia, but surely the (totally corrupt) Cambodian Government should be held accountable for such a move – the WTO does not enforce membership. Such an example has little relevance when debating the barriers that shelter employees of incumbent airlines though.
Do you think that the controls in place that ensure a QF SO, who, for all intents and purposes doesn’t actually fly, earns as much or more than a competitor’s captain are sensible?
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Hi'er:
I was employed in the private sector before joining Defence.
I'm not giving advice to "commercial" operators. I'm telling you our skills are not worth the money you think they are. The previous couple of "anti-globalisation" and "pro-union" posts serve only to prove my point that becoming a pilot requires no hard to acquire qualifications, such as academic achievements.
Unfortunately for you, you know I'm right - that is why your only defence is to call me a "public servant". If you must know, military Officers are not considered part of the APS. However you can call me what you like - if it makes you feel better whilst watching your pay packet decline.
You don't want to "turn a PROFIT" for your employer. You're always talking about management sticking it to you, and you want to stick it right back. Your sole goal is to fill your greedy little hands with cash - don't try hide behind ideology now... and what's your method to achieve that? Get everyone ELSE to turn down there pay offers.
The The: The (is there an echo in here?
market economy is what has put you in your comfortable house. I think North Korea allow you to immigrate if you ask nicely. Economic theory as you put it works - pick up a text book on economics and take a look at "Market failures" and the measures to address them. As Professor said, your arguing absolutes that are not relevant.
OH, and HI'er: At least you've stopped saying defence is not a "real job" .
I was employed in the private sector before joining Defence.
I'm not giving advice to "commercial" operators. I'm telling you our skills are not worth the money you think they are. The previous couple of "anti-globalisation" and "pro-union" posts serve only to prove my point that becoming a pilot requires no hard to acquire qualifications, such as academic achievements.
Unfortunately for you, you know I'm right - that is why your only defence is to call me a "public servant". If you must know, military Officers are not considered part of the APS. However you can call me what you like - if it makes you feel better whilst watching your pay packet decline.
You don't want to "turn a PROFIT" for your employer. You're always talking about management sticking it to you, and you want to stick it right back. Your sole goal is to fill your greedy little hands with cash - don't try hide behind ideology now... and what's your method to achieve that? Get everyone ELSE to turn down there pay offers.
The The: The (is there an echo in here?
market economy is what has put you in your comfortable house. I think North Korea allow you to immigrate if you ask nicely. Economic theory as you put it works - pick up a text book on economics and take a look at "Market failures" and the measures to address them. As Professor said, your arguing absolutes that are not relevant.OH, and HI'er: At least you've stopped saying defence is not a "real job" .
Last edited by Pass-A-Frozo; 17th Dec 2005 at 10:44.
Pass, you certainly are an angry young man. Thank you for the suggested reading but it's been a very long time since I've had the inclination to pick up my old university texts. These days I prefer reading a bit of history or some of the classics. Perhaps you can enlighten me with your new found knowledge on addressing market failures. What subject are you up to now; Economics 102?
Perhaps you might have a bit more understanding if your job was being outsourced to Durkadurkastan! I'm sure they'd make fine military officers at a pittance the cost.
Sorry Prof, but comments like "true market competition" led me to form such a view. And what should we do with those S/O's who find themselves earning more than the new age LCC captain? Cut their salary in half immediately, will we all feel so much better then?
Everyone knows the days of being well paid (whatever that means) for pilots is just about over. It is a race to the bottom, instigated by management, perpetuated by pilots. I'd rather fly a jet than stack shelves for the same amount (about as useful as my economics degree is; Pass). We need a little something to save our bacon, the "free" market surely aint gonna do it.
Perhaps you might have a bit more understanding if your job was being outsourced to Durkadurkastan! I'm sure they'd make fine military officers at a pittance the cost.
Sorry Prof, but comments like "true market competition" led me to form such a view. And what should we do with those S/O's who find themselves earning more than the new age LCC captain? Cut their salary in half immediately, will we all feel so much better then?
Everyone knows the days of being well paid (whatever that means) for pilots is just about over. It is a race to the bottom, instigated by management, perpetuated by pilots. I'd rather fly a jet than stack shelves for the same amount (about as useful as my economics degree is; Pass). We need a little something to save our bacon, the "free" market surely aint gonna do it.
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The The,
“Everyone knows the days of being well paid (whatever that means) for pilots is just about over”.
It is. Really. Do you have an actual date will this will become official.
Perhaps what you meant to say was this:
“Everyone knows that the days of being paid high salaries will eventually come to an end as Dixon and co outsmart our greedy pilot union who has had its head up its bum worrying about the 744 only and force us to work according to industry standard”.
“Everyone knows the days of being well paid (whatever that means) for pilots is just about over”.
It is. Really. Do you have an actual date will this will become official.
Perhaps what you meant to say was this:
“Everyone knows that the days of being paid high salaries will eventually come to an end as Dixon and co outsmart our greedy pilot union who has had its head up its bum worrying about the 744 only and force us to work according to industry standard”.
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"one would have to admit that the conditions of service enjoyed by the employees of QF spike in comparison to most (if not all) other airlines in the same region"
That may be true when you compare to airlines that use cheap third world labour.These airlines are also the worlds most profitable.
I suppose some would argue that they are the most profitable simply due to their good management not the fact that they pay their workers some of the lowest wages in the world.
The average QF worker may very well get paid a lot more than those in the region but not compared with other workers of similiar skill/responsibilities/experience within Australia.
The average QF worker just starting out will struggle to provide the basic necessities to raise a family (especially in Sydney where a high proportion of the jobs are).
The gloss will wear off for the people who are doing the undercutting as they realise someone else will do it for even less than them as they struggle to pay for their two bedroom house on the outskirts of Sydney. Already the government is bringing in tradesmen from China/Korea/Vietnam/Phillipines. What makes any of you LCC pilots think they won't do it to you in the future?
Their IR tactic is to bring new starters in on less money than the current employees. The current employees get screwed on their conditions but they never take money off them because it would be too destabilising.
OK I probably won't get to play with the shiny new 787 ( that will probably require me to sign a new agreement if I want to get trained on that) - but at least I will be able to provide adequately for my family without undercutting someone else.
The people that keep quoting economic text books/market theory/capitalism can keep it to themselves. Market theory gets G.D six million a year and growing in double digits while the average workers conditions are reduced to 5 minmum guaranteed entitlements.Capitalism gets us FAI,One Tel,Enron,Christopher Skase etc.
Capitalism may be the best system for managing an economy we have but IT IS DEEPLY FLAWED!!!!!!!!!
Everything in moderation.
That may be true when you compare to airlines that use cheap third world labour.These airlines are also the worlds most profitable.
I suppose some would argue that they are the most profitable simply due to their good management not the fact that they pay their workers some of the lowest wages in the world.
The average QF worker may very well get paid a lot more than those in the region but not compared with other workers of similiar skill/responsibilities/experience within Australia.
The average QF worker just starting out will struggle to provide the basic necessities to raise a family (especially in Sydney where a high proportion of the jobs are).
The gloss will wear off for the people who are doing the undercutting as they realise someone else will do it for even less than them as they struggle to pay for their two bedroom house on the outskirts of Sydney. Already the government is bringing in tradesmen from China/Korea/Vietnam/Phillipines. What makes any of you LCC pilots think they won't do it to you in the future?
Their IR tactic is to bring new starters in on less money than the current employees. The current employees get screwed on their conditions but they never take money off them because it would be too destabilising.
OK I probably won't get to play with the shiny new 787 ( that will probably require me to sign a new agreement if I want to get trained on that) - but at least I will be able to provide adequately for my family without undercutting someone else.
The people that keep quoting economic text books/market theory/capitalism can keep it to themselves. Market theory gets G.D six million a year and growing in double digits while the average workers conditions are reduced to 5 minmum guaranteed entitlements.Capitalism gets us FAI,One Tel,Enron,Christopher Skase etc.
Capitalism may be the best system for managing an economy we have but IT IS DEEPLY FLAWED!!!!!!!!!
Everything in moderation.
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Perhaps you might have a bit more understanding if your job was being outsourced to Durkadurkastan! I'm sure they'd make fine military officers at a pittance the cost.
Now there's a thought.
Are the higher paid Defence Forces of western powers superior to their lesser paid foreign equivalents?
The past 50 years would suggest quite the opposite, in fact.
The Korean War of the 1950's saw the Yanks get their asses kicked, with no victory to either side.
Twenty years on, and Americans and Australians were taught a lesson in geurilla warfare by the North Vietnamese, aka the Vietcong, ending in defeat for the Western forces.
Fast forward to now, and it's evident that in spite of the billions of dollars being spent on the pro-American forces and their weaponry, the unpaid insurgent forces are highlighting exactly how INeffective these professionals are.
Perhaps Pass a Frozo might care to indicate what value he feels he contributes to Australia, in light of the foregoing?
Now there's a thought.
Are the higher paid Defence Forces of western powers superior to their lesser paid foreign equivalents?
The past 50 years would suggest quite the opposite, in fact.
The Korean War of the 1950's saw the Yanks get their asses kicked, with no victory to either side.
Twenty years on, and Americans and Australians were taught a lesson in geurilla warfare by the North Vietnamese, aka the Vietcong, ending in defeat for the Western forces.
Fast forward to now, and it's evident that in spite of the billions of dollars being spent on the pro-American forces and their weaponry, the unpaid insurgent forces are highlighting exactly how INeffective these professionals are.
Perhaps Pass a Frozo might care to indicate what value he feels he contributes to Australia, in light of the foregoing?
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Yes, agreed, Dutchie .
This forum is ONLY for "men and women in uniform" who want to sledge Australian professional pilots!
It's just not fair to turn the tables like that, is it
(btw, I can't see any of what Ronnie has written is factually incorrect).
.This forum is ONLY for "men and women in uniform" who want to sledge Australian professional pilots!
It's just not fair to turn the tables like that, is it
(btw, I can't see any of what Ronnie has written is factually incorrect).
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Ronnie and HI'er: Outsource it if you want. I really don't mind at all! I'd be worried a bit for Australia though. Maybe you can make some protest signs up and wave them around on ANZAC day to gather support for your idea??
It's not up to me to decide if I'm contributing to Australia, it's up to members of the Australian public. Clearly you don't think the ADF does contribute to Australia - well that's fine I don't mind in the slightest - it's a democracy! The Australian Greens are anti-defence and will no doubt have a candidate in your area. Maybe you can get a second opinion on the worth of the ADF from the Bali burns victims.
Feel free to start a new thread to discuss western military doctrine - however I suspect your knowledge in the field is about as comprehensive as your knowledge and education in economics.
Pilot pay will continue to drop for the reasons I've outlined. If you don't like the pay - change to another job and stop abusing people who are happy with it!
It's not up to me to decide if I'm contributing to Australia, it's up to members of the Australian public. Clearly you don't think the ADF does contribute to Australia - well that's fine I don't mind in the slightest - it's a democracy! The Australian Greens are anti-defence and will no doubt have a candidate in your area. Maybe you can get a second opinion on the worth of the ADF from the Bali burns victims.
Feel free to start a new thread to discuss western military doctrine - however I suspect your knowledge in the field is about as comprehensive as your knowledge and education in economics.
Pilot pay will continue to drop for the reasons I've outlined. If you don't like the pay - change to another job and stop abusing people who are happy with it!