Race to the Bottom PART II
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A mate of mine at Jetblue reckons on making about 55 -58 000 as an A320 FO in US dollars. After tax and with the cost of living in the north east of the US I would say aussie LCC drivers are in a good spot.
At the outset I will state that I am not with Jetstar, or QF, or VB for that matter, but I am reasonably familiar with the deals that pilots in each carrier are on. Nor do I take any comfort or delight in hearing that the salaries and conditions of professional pilots are again under attack from rapacious management.
I also ask this question; is there an online forum where the employees of premium restaurants sling off that those "problem children" who accept the slave-like terms and conditions working at McDonalds?
I suspect that a lot of the comments here come from QF pilots, but maybe I am wrong.........
I take great exception to people posting derogatory comments regarding National Jet, Impulse, Southern or any other pilots who have suddenly found themselves in reduced circumstances. If you are 27 years old and an F/O at QF (for example), and are suddenly presented with a deal that you find unpalatable, sure, you can vote with your feet.
If however you are in your 50's, have been with National Jet or Impulse for 10+ years, have established yourself in a particular community for family reasons and suddenly are presented with a deal that you find unpalatable, YOUR OPTIONS ARE QUITE DIFFERENT. I am not aware of Emirates or Cathay hiring pilots in their 50's (not recently anyhow), so that "i'll just go overseas and earn the big bucks" option is not always an option.
ABSOLUTELY NOBODY wants to take a pay cut, buy a rating or accept a deal that in any way reduces your standard of living. In the case of the older pilot with a situation like that described above, it is simply a choice between choosing to retain something or alternatively lose everything. It is not the lure of the "shiny jets", but the fear of insolvency that leads people in such circumstances to accept less-than-ideal deals.
Unemployment is no major hardship when you are in your 20's; go to the beach every day, party every night, and when you run outa cash call up your former employer from GA and see if you can "help him out".
If you have been out of GA for over 10 years, your former employer most likely is no longer around, you can't even remember how to start a Chieftain, and the Bank Manager is on the phone almost daily.
What sort of choice is this?
None at all.
So before you start lumping all pilots into the category of "heroes", "thieves" or whatever for even daring to consider accepting a less-than-a-QF-B744-Captain's deal, just stop and consider the environment.
And pray that you never get old, get married or get confronted with such a choice. Because sometimes the only choice you have is no choice at all.
I also ask this question; is there an online forum where the employees of premium restaurants sling off that those "problem children" who accept the slave-like terms and conditions working at McDonalds?
I suspect that a lot of the comments here come from QF pilots, but maybe I am wrong.........
I take great exception to people posting derogatory comments regarding National Jet, Impulse, Southern or any other pilots who have suddenly found themselves in reduced circumstances. If you are 27 years old and an F/O at QF (for example), and are suddenly presented with a deal that you find unpalatable, sure, you can vote with your feet.
If however you are in your 50's, have been with National Jet or Impulse for 10+ years, have established yourself in a particular community for family reasons and suddenly are presented with a deal that you find unpalatable, YOUR OPTIONS ARE QUITE DIFFERENT. I am not aware of Emirates or Cathay hiring pilots in their 50's (not recently anyhow), so that "i'll just go overseas and earn the big bucks" option is not always an option.
ABSOLUTELY NOBODY wants to take a pay cut, buy a rating or accept a deal that in any way reduces your standard of living. In the case of the older pilot with a situation like that described above, it is simply a choice between choosing to retain something or alternatively lose everything. It is not the lure of the "shiny jets", but the fear of insolvency that leads people in such circumstances to accept less-than-ideal deals.
Unemployment is no major hardship when you are in your 20's; go to the beach every day, party every night, and when you run outa cash call up your former employer from GA and see if you can "help him out".
If you have been out of GA for over 10 years, your former employer most likely is no longer around, you can't even remember how to start a Chieftain, and the Bank Manager is on the phone almost daily.
What sort of choice is this?
None at all.
So before you start lumping all pilots into the category of "heroes", "thieves" or whatever for even daring to consider accepting a less-than-a-QF-B744-Captain's deal, just stop and consider the environment.
And pray that you never get old, get married or get confronted with such a choice. Because sometimes the only choice you have is no choice at all.
Last edited by chimbu warrior; 14th Dec 2005 at 16:14.
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At the moment a perfect opportunity for aipa and unity, can they see it or is the sleeping giant asleep again, but hang on their main thing is Jetstar wont expand past 23 aircraft(ouch)
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LongJohn,
You are a prime example of the educated, baseless opinions that exists out there in general society. I have never read so much utter vomit in my life. I have no idea how you have the brains to even manage to log on to get access to get onto the internet.
Chimbu Warriors Post says everything that needs to be said perfectly.
Forget what pilots earmed 15 or 20 years ago. Forget about the respect aspect of the job. Police used to be respected too once upon a time. Stop writing that rot about some woman who had it all and ended up a hooker or whatever that was meant to mean. Clearly , you have read too many romance novels in your shallow life. Stop complaining about the reductions in pay and conditions that occur within various companies, remove your hand from your pecker for a minute and just sit quietly until your brain catches up.
Who do you think you are representing with that garbage, perfect world talk anyway?
It's pretty simple. If you don't like the conditions and you can afford to quit. Do it! If life's circumstances prevent that then you take the best thing you can as Chimbu warrior said. It's not always fair but sometimes people need to do things they don't want to do. It's called survival, it's called looking after your family, it's called staying emplyed and that's what is happening in the real world today.
You obviously do not have the brains to understand that.
Tut tut Mr Gin Jockey. You can go stand in the corner until you cool off..
Woomera (Eastern States)
You are a prime example of the educated, baseless opinions that exists out there in general society. I have never read so much utter vomit in my life. I have no idea how you have the brains to even manage to log on to get access to get onto the internet.
Chimbu Warriors Post says everything that needs to be said perfectly.
Forget what pilots earmed 15 or 20 years ago. Forget about the respect aspect of the job. Police used to be respected too once upon a time. Stop writing that rot about some woman who had it all and ended up a hooker or whatever that was meant to mean. Clearly , you have read too many romance novels in your shallow life. Stop complaining about the reductions in pay and conditions that occur within various companies, remove your hand from your pecker for a minute and just sit quietly until your brain catches up.
Who do you think you are representing with that garbage, perfect world talk anyway?
It's pretty simple. If you don't like the conditions and you can afford to quit. Do it! If life's circumstances prevent that then you take the best thing you can as Chimbu warrior said. It's not always fair but sometimes people need to do things they don't want to do. It's called survival, it's called looking after your family, it's called staying emplyed and that's what is happening in the real world today.
You obviously do not have the brains to understand that.
Tut tut Mr Gin Jockey. You can go stand in the corner until you cool off..
Woomera (Eastern States)
Last edited by Woomera; 15th Dec 2005 at 03:30.
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And leading the furious race to the bottom of the pay scale is.........
ginjockey!
Mate, at least longjohn can see how wrong this race to be the lowest paid is. YOU seem to somehow justify it, and then castigate him for his efforts!
I suggest you go back to being a barfly, fool.
ginjockey!
Mate, at least longjohn can see how wrong this race to be the lowest paid is. YOU seem to somehow justify it, and then castigate him for his efforts!
I suggest you go back to being a barfly, fool.
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Full Employment
I don't understand.
Why in an economy that boasts 5% unemployment are wages declining.?
I always believed that when the labour market was tight was the best time to negotiate better wages terms and conditions.
Did I miss something?
Please no globalisation rhetoric.
There has to be another reason
Why in an economy that boasts 5% unemployment are wages declining.?
I always believed that when the labour market was tight was the best time to negotiate better wages terms and conditions.
Did I miss something?
Please no globalisation rhetoric.
There has to be another reason
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The only hope I see for the future is the pool of available pilots drying up as the 17 year olds see how worthless an airline job is nowdays and spend thier money on a career elsewhere
I don't understand.
Why in an economy that boasts 5% unemployment are wages declining.?
I always believed that when the labour market was tight was the best time to negotiate better wages terms and conditions.
Did I miss something?
Why in an economy that boasts 5% unemployment are wages declining.?
I always believed that when the labour market was tight was the best time to negotiate better wages terms and conditions.
Did I miss something?
Also, to suggest that pilot skill is somehow related to pilot salary is plain rude. You are suggesting modern day pilots earning less than those in the 70's are less skilled - simply because they earn less. Get your hand off it old man!
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The last bit wasn't to you DEFCON4, it was to a previous poster who posted to the younger "modern day pilot", pointing to lower skills with lower pay.
What did I read into your question - I took it at face value!
What did I read into your question - I took it at face value!
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It will continue to lower until people wanting jobs = jobs wanting people.
The numbers of (qualified) pilots applying to airlines have ALWAYS outnumbered the number of available positions.
The ACCEPTABLE number - following a series of interviews, and tests - whittled the number considerably (generally around 70 - 85%, I understand).
As airlines lowered their standards (the floodgates were thrown WIDE open in 1989), conditions* were downgraded.
You are suggesting modern day pilots earning less than those in the 70's are less skilled - simply because they earn less.
*Conditions refer to more than just $$'s. They were the carrot that lured the suckers in.
The stick was liberally applied ever since, wrt unified national pilot representation.
(Perhaps one day, P-A-F will find himself a job in the REAL world, where he isn't treated like a spoonfed kindergarten kid...ie. a public servant)
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I'm curious HI'er.
You say that the "skill" and "quality" of pilots has declined over the years, yet you expect the airline to pay them the same salary package as the former "better skilled" employees?? How does that work.
You are arguing against yourself.
Perhaps if you can get "The Greens" into government you plan just might work!
So I guess you stand on the side of ANZAC day marches and scream "Get a real job" ??
You say that the "skill" and "quality" of pilots has declined over the years, yet you expect the airline to pay them the same salary package as the former "better skilled" employees?? How does that work.
You are arguing against yourself.
Perhaps if you can get "The Greens" into government you plan just might work!
Perhaps one day, P-A-F will find himself a job in the REAL world, where he isn't treated like a spoonfed kindergarten kid...ie. a public servant
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You say that the "skill" and "quality" of pilots has declined over the years, yet you expect the airline to pay them the same salary package as the former "better skilled" employees?? How does that work.
The areas of "expertise" have shifted over the past 20 years, however the basic requirements of being able to fly and manage the aircraft, its systems, and crew, have stayed the same.
Your knowledge and understanding of the responsibilities of a pilot is quite apparently superficial at best, P-A-F, not surprisingly.
"So I guess you stand on the side of ANZAC day marches and scream "Get a real job" ??"
WTF veterans marching once a year, has to do with this topic, is beyond me. Is this the "sheltered workshop" imduced thinking you've developed after years of "working" as a p.s.?
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"So I guess you stand on the side of ANZAC day marches and scream "Get a real job" ??"
WTF veterans marching once a year, has to do with this topic, is beyond me. Is this the "sheltered workshop" imduced thinking you've developed after years of "working" as a p.s.?
WTF veterans marching once a year, has to do with this topic, is beyond me. Is this the "sheltered workshop" imduced thinking you've developed after years of "working" as a p.s.?
Well the "sheltered workshop" I work in, the same institution you say is not the "real world" and therefore not a "real job" is Defence. You've made it quite clear, you don't think being enlisted or an officer in the Australian Defence Force is a real job! It is a simple logic conclusion therefore that you see defence people and think "Get a real job". Either you think this or you don't. Which is it?
Your knowledge and understanding of the responsibilities of a pilot is quite apparently superficial at best
Last edited by Pass-A-Frozo; 16th Dec 2005 at 19:47.
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Heh heh. Geez PAF....winding things up again? How's things?
As you well know, I went from one sheltered workshop (RAAF) into another sheltered workshop (QF). We seem to spend our lives just moving from one bumbling bureaucracy to another. One is run by the Government. The other isn't (anymore, as you rightly point out - but trust me, the legacy is there!).
On 'negotiating': Under the current Government, the scales have tipped sharply in favour of the employer. Current legislation pretty much allows your employer to whittle down wages/conditions over time with impunity until they hit the lowest applicable safety net (because there comes a point where you have no more conditions to sacrifice in order to have your pay keep up with inflation). Negotiating is, I think, quite a bit more complex as a result, particularly if your employer has a plentiful source of employees.
On 'supply & demand': You're quite right. And I hope HI'ers 6 year old doesn't take up economics. It's an employers market in the major airlines in Australia. Look at the number of qualified applicants for QF mainline versus the number they actually employ, and the time successful applicants sometimes have to spend on the 'hold' file waiting for a position! Dixon and Joyce know full well at the moment that they'll get more than enough applicants for Jetstar at Jetstar rates - so long as they continue to pay more than GA and regional, which isn't much of a challenge. Conversely, where there's a shortage, like in some trades at the moment, workers are demanding - and receiving - exhorbitant rates compared to the 'norm' (crikey, I practically have to pay a bribe to get an electrician round to my place).
As you well know, I went from one sheltered workshop (RAAF) into another sheltered workshop (QF). We seem to spend our lives just moving from one bumbling bureaucracy to another. One is run by the Government. The other isn't (anymore, as you rightly point out - but trust me, the legacy is there!).
On 'negotiating': Under the current Government, the scales have tipped sharply in favour of the employer. Current legislation pretty much allows your employer to whittle down wages/conditions over time with impunity until they hit the lowest applicable safety net (because there comes a point where you have no more conditions to sacrifice in order to have your pay keep up with inflation). Negotiating is, I think, quite a bit more complex as a result, particularly if your employer has a plentiful source of employees.
On 'supply & demand': You're quite right. And I hope HI'ers 6 year old doesn't take up economics. It's an employers market in the major airlines in Australia. Look at the number of qualified applicants for QF mainline versus the number they actually employ, and the time successful applicants sometimes have to spend on the 'hold' file waiting for a position! Dixon and Joyce know full well at the moment that they'll get more than enough applicants for Jetstar at Jetstar rates - so long as they continue to pay more than GA and regional, which isn't much of a challenge. Conversely, where there's a shortage, like in some trades at the moment, workers are demanding - and receiving - exhorbitant rates compared to the 'norm' (crikey, I practically have to pay a bribe to get an electrician round to my place).
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Look at the number of qualified applicants for QF mainline versus the number they actually employ, and the time successful applicants sometimes have to spend on the 'hold' file waiting for a position!
They'd much rather work at Burger King or Mackers, than leave their comfort zone.
just don't expect to be paid more than the market decides.
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Unemployment
DEFCON4
Although I understand what you're saying, different governments obtain their statistics differently. It is my understanding ours puts down a 'casual on only 3 hours a week' as employed in these figures!
GP
Why in an economy that boasts 5% unemployment are wages declining.?
GP
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True market competition has always been thwarted by the placement of artificial barriers. QF is protected on the pacific market by barriers put in place by the government. This is a barrier that suits Dixon for the time being although it is definitely finite. QF has indeed been protected from the free market for most of its history and such protection has been a key contributor to its longevity.
Trade unions also place artificial barriers on the competitiveness of the labor market. They protect the incompetent (seniorority) and ensure that inefficiency is built into the system. One only needs to take a look at the industrial garbage that was dispensed with when TESNA re-launched the A320 fleet from the remains of Ansett.. Magically, overnight, things could be accomplished with ease and efficiency that previously would have resulted in the downing of tools – a mindset still entrenched in the employees of QF. Often these barriers are not clear even to the employees themselves especially considering that the majority of QF employees have only worked for one airline and are unable to see outside the square.
Dixon is well aware that such barriers are in place in mainline in every department and cannot effectively be budged in a timely fashion as the dogs of competitive war are howling – and so along comes Jetstar (or TED, or Metrojet, or Lauda Italia or GB Airways), sans barriers.
Naturally, the employees of the incumbent will whine about how “unfair” it is to remove the barrier that has protected them from a competitive labor market for so long. Such background noise will eventually die out as a realization sets in that this is a new normal.
Also in these situations the employees of the incumbent will accuse the employees of the startup of being inferior and spineless for having failed to join the ranks of their unionized brothers. This may be true – many pilots in Jetsar were unable to join QF and would dearly love the conditions of service enjoyed by mainline crews but to label them inferior simply because they could not pass the absurdly outdated testing process at QF is disingenuous. Heavens only knows how a pacific baron would fair in an A320 sim assessment were the tables turned.
It is a common inference here on pprune that the pilots employed by Jetstar should refuse the conditions of service on offer thus forcing the company to up the offer. This is a very hypocritical point of view to take considering QF pilots accepted both a B scale pay and new set of conditions for Australian airlines. Apparently QF pilots can cave in to the demands of their employer but no one else can.
Of course, like Virgin Blue, Jetstar has been placed under the microscope by QF pilots eagerly waiting for an incident to occur thus justifying their opinion that safety is directly related to salary levels – something for which not a single shred of evidence exists.
Trade unions also place artificial barriers on the competitiveness of the labor market. They protect the incompetent (seniorority) and ensure that inefficiency is built into the system. One only needs to take a look at the industrial garbage that was dispensed with when TESNA re-launched the A320 fleet from the remains of Ansett.. Magically, overnight, things could be accomplished with ease and efficiency that previously would have resulted in the downing of tools – a mindset still entrenched in the employees of QF. Often these barriers are not clear even to the employees themselves especially considering that the majority of QF employees have only worked for one airline and are unable to see outside the square.
Dixon is well aware that such barriers are in place in mainline in every department and cannot effectively be budged in a timely fashion as the dogs of competitive war are howling – and so along comes Jetstar (or TED, or Metrojet, or Lauda Italia or GB Airways), sans barriers.
Naturally, the employees of the incumbent will whine about how “unfair” it is to remove the barrier that has protected them from a competitive labor market for so long. Such background noise will eventually die out as a realization sets in that this is a new normal.
Also in these situations the employees of the incumbent will accuse the employees of the startup of being inferior and spineless for having failed to join the ranks of their unionized brothers. This may be true – many pilots in Jetsar were unable to join QF and would dearly love the conditions of service enjoyed by mainline crews but to label them inferior simply because they could not pass the absurdly outdated testing process at QF is disingenuous. Heavens only knows how a pacific baron would fair in an A320 sim assessment were the tables turned.
It is a common inference here on pprune that the pilots employed by Jetstar should refuse the conditions of service on offer thus forcing the company to up the offer. This is a very hypocritical point of view to take considering QF pilots accepted both a B scale pay and new set of conditions for Australian airlines. Apparently QF pilots can cave in to the demands of their employer but no one else can.
Of course, like Virgin Blue, Jetstar has been placed under the microscope by QF pilots eagerly waiting for an incident to occur thus justifying their opinion that safety is directly related to salary levels – something for which not a single shred of evidence exists.