Qantas - an airline that rewards mediocrities
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Apart from a few "life-stylers" I believe the majority of S/O's cannot wait for a window seat
Just check the seniority numbers and you'll find the "few" life-stylers are in clear and definite abundance.
Hundreds of these guys have had more than an ample opportunity to apply for F/O positions in the previous years but chose instead to ride the gravy train.
I agree these guys that choose to stay are mediocrities and in the end lifestyle only goes so far.
Good on the guys that took promotion when it was available.
Bushy put things perfectly into perspective for me Poto so stop yer bloody whinging son!
Abundance perhaps but certainly not majority "Timbo". Besides who cares, I am not Whinging. Bushy is right RFDS guys should be paid more. Flying a drunken 'brethren' with a stubbed toe to the city before pay day at three in the morning, sux; exactly how does that mean an S/O should not receive overtime on a long haul sector I don't know? You explain please?
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Riding the gravy train...
Whats wrong with that? Everyone else in QF exploits the joint to the nth degree. As usual pilots who are seen as not doing it as hard as others are lambasted.
Who is the idiot?
Also don't lose sight of the fact that this cost cutting position results in the company saving money . Two F/O's would be more expensive.
Finally, to those who haven't spent 12+ hours crewing a plane on a regular basis, take it from me as I have, you want overtime.
Whats wrong with that? Everyone else in QF exploits the joint to the nth degree. As usual pilots who are seen as not doing it as hard as others are lambasted.
Who is the idiot?
Also don't lose sight of the fact that this cost cutting position results in the company saving money . Two F/O's would be more expensive.
Finally, to those who haven't spent 12+ hours crewing a plane on a regular basis, take it from me as I have, you want overtime.
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Timmee, get a life. Most of the SO's at the top of the seniority list have been FO"s and Capts elsewhere, why would anyone choose to work harder and have more responsibilty for less money. In any other industry people choose the job based on which position gives them the most money, even if it means less job satisfaction.
For your information, most of the senior SO's do want to promote asap, but they won't to promote to the aircraft type of their choice. Lifestyle doesn't mean minimum work, it means choosing between shorthaul ops, lots of sectors and less time away from home or those who prefer longer trips.
For your information, most of the senior SO's do want to promote asap, but they won't to promote to the aircraft type of their choice. Lifestyle doesn't mean minimum work, it means choosing between shorthaul ops, lots of sectors and less time away from home or those who prefer longer trips.
Last edited by MrWooby; 4th Nov 2005 at 05:28.
And what about the Dash-8 Captains and First Officers. Also have to pass QF Psych and Skills, Do Sims and line checks to same standards as QF, yet are paid less than a mainline Flight Attendant. Where is the fairness in this.
I can see the hours worked are less for Regionals but what about the 6 sector days with sectors as short as 12 minutes.
I can see the hours worked are less for Regionals but what about the 6 sector days with sectors as short as 12 minutes.
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Prop Sync and Mr Wooby sound like the mediocrities and dead-wood pilots that are spoken about on this web site.
If you guys want to be reconciled to the back seat so to speak then all the better for motivated pilots that want promotion and joined to do just that - fly !!
To quote one very very senior former QF Captain mate of mine,
"Any second officer that stays in their position for more than 5 years and has had the opportunity for promotion previously isnt worth a pinch of sh1t and bloody hard to train"
I wasnt aware that when QF recruits they look for permanent second officers in some cases!
SO much for looking for motivated pilots as they state on their recruitment website.
Agree with Tim wholeheartedly.
Pilots not wanting promotion arent worth a pinch of the proverbial.
The longer you guys fester down the back the harder eventual promotion will be and the further you guys are distanced from reality.
If you guys want to be reconciled to the back seat so to speak then all the better for motivated pilots that want promotion and joined to do just that - fly !!
To quote one very very senior former QF Captain mate of mine,
"Any second officer that stays in their position for more than 5 years and has had the opportunity for promotion previously isnt worth a pinch of sh1t and bloody hard to train"
I wasnt aware that when QF recruits they look for permanent second officers in some cases!
SO much for looking for motivated pilots as they state on their recruitment website.
Agree with Tim wholeheartedly.
Pilots not wanting promotion arent worth a pinch of the proverbial.
The longer you guys fester down the back the harder eventual promotion will be and the further you guys are distanced from reality.
Well Folks, I have finally registered to take part in this forum, so I can now wade into the 'No-SO-should-be-paid-more-than-an-FO' debate.
A little bit of education is needed here.
Firstly, QF Second Officers are not PAID more than their FO counterparts. I know that might be difficult to get through to some, but that is the fact. They might EARN more, but they certainly are not PAID more. FO hourly rate is higher than an equivalent incremental SO rate. In comparing the gross annual salaries of FO to SO one has to take into account the differences in divisor (i.e. the number of credited hours worked in each 8 week bid period). Over the last few years the divisor for QF B744 SO has been averaging around 170-175 hours. At the current bid period it is 165 hours. From my recollection the divisor of 767 FO sits around 160 hours. So at the end of the year the B744 SO may GROSS more salary because he/she has ended up WORKING more credited hours. Throw in the overtime factor and it is not too hard to GROSS more than a 767 FO.
You cannot compare B744 SO salary to that of a 737 FO because they are working to different contracts. End of story. Anyone who goes to the Shorthaul fleet and bleats about their salary only has themselves to blame.
Now - onto that 'promotion' issue. There is a contract (the Longhaul Certified Agreement) which permits individuals the right to volunteer for advertised positions when and where they see fit to do so. SO's are not the only people who choose to exercise this option in that manner. THere are any number of Captains who do not take up positions on larger aircraft because, I assume, it doesn't suit their LIFESTYLE.
As for being difficult to train after 5 years - that is a matter of personal opinion, and my opinion is that it is a crock. I imagine it must have been soooooo difficult to train all the current Captains who endured, through no fault of their own, lengthy periods as SO.
I have been a SO for over four years now. I throughly enjoy the job, and I do not get worked up about whether or not I am a 'real pilot' because I don't take off/land. I will look for a promotion to FO in due course, probaby in the next two years depending upon what is on offer. The fact that I might take home more money than an equivalent 767 FO is amusing and highlights an inequity in the system. I don't give a toss about the differential between mine and a 737 FO salary. Different ballgame alltogether.
To all of you bleaters out there - if you don't like what is happening with SO's then go and change the Contract. Simple. It is not the fault of the individuals. I am the first to admit that the salary situation could be improved. But I don't see anyone attempting to do that.
Mediocre? I don't think so. I consider myself to be an integral part of a longhaul crew who is exercising choices afforded to him under the Contract . The backseat crewmember (as you lot put it) is just as important as the control seat occupants.
A little bit of education is needed here.
Firstly, QF Second Officers are not PAID more than their FO counterparts. I know that might be difficult to get through to some, but that is the fact. They might EARN more, but they certainly are not PAID more. FO hourly rate is higher than an equivalent incremental SO rate. In comparing the gross annual salaries of FO to SO one has to take into account the differences in divisor (i.e. the number of credited hours worked in each 8 week bid period). Over the last few years the divisor for QF B744 SO has been averaging around 170-175 hours. At the current bid period it is 165 hours. From my recollection the divisor of 767 FO sits around 160 hours. So at the end of the year the B744 SO may GROSS more salary because he/she has ended up WORKING more credited hours. Throw in the overtime factor and it is not too hard to GROSS more than a 767 FO.
You cannot compare B744 SO salary to that of a 737 FO because they are working to different contracts. End of story. Anyone who goes to the Shorthaul fleet and bleats about their salary only has themselves to blame.
Now - onto that 'promotion' issue. There is a contract (the Longhaul Certified Agreement) which permits individuals the right to volunteer for advertised positions when and where they see fit to do so. SO's are not the only people who choose to exercise this option in that manner. THere are any number of Captains who do not take up positions on larger aircraft because, I assume, it doesn't suit their LIFESTYLE.
As for being difficult to train after 5 years - that is a matter of personal opinion, and my opinion is that it is a crock. I imagine it must have been soooooo difficult to train all the current Captains who endured, through no fault of their own, lengthy periods as SO.
I have been a SO for over four years now. I throughly enjoy the job, and I do not get worked up about whether or not I am a 'real pilot' because I don't take off/land. I will look for a promotion to FO in due course, probaby in the next two years depending upon what is on offer. The fact that I might take home more money than an equivalent 767 FO is amusing and highlights an inequity in the system. I don't give a toss about the differential between mine and a 737 FO salary. Different ballgame alltogether.
To all of you bleaters out there - if you don't like what is happening with SO's then go and change the Contract. Simple. It is not the fault of the individuals. I am the first to admit that the salary situation could be improved. But I don't see anyone attempting to do that.
Mediocre? I don't think so. I consider myself to be an integral part of a longhaul crew who is exercising choices afforded to him under the Contract . The backseat crewmember (as you lot put it) is just as important as the control seat occupants.
You were doing really well until:
To quote 'The Castle':
"Get your hand off it, Daryl"
The backseat crewmember (as you lot put it) is just as important as the control seat occupants.
"Get your hand off it, Daryl"
Actually "OhSpareMe"
you pretty much summed it all.
Ruprie: The way I see it the person(s) in the back are just as important. They audit the guys in the front. These Guys may have not done a T/O or Landing for a month and may not have been into the particular port for many months. Under these circumstances a safer condition is achieved with 3/4 brains watching the shop- not important you say.
By the way there is only two on deck for the crz- is a second officer not important?
I think your hand is on it Pal
you pretty much summed it all.
Ruprie: The way I see it the person(s) in the back are just as important. They audit the guys in the front. These Guys may have not done a T/O or Landing for a month and may not have been into the particular port for many months. Under these circumstances a safer condition is achieved with 3/4 brains watching the shop- not important you say.
By the way there is only two on deck for the crz- is a second officer not important?
I think your hand is on it Pal
Poto,
I'm not saying that SO's aren't important, after all they are third in command
but to say that they're just as important as the captain and the FO is just plain ludicrous.
Sure, an extra set of eyes is always useful, but if they were necessary for the safe operation of the aircraft then wouldn't they be carried on every flight? Gee, how do the 767 guys cope if they're operating 2 pilot and neither of them have been to the destination in a couple of weeks.
As an SO I do my job, monitor what's going on and speak up when I need to, but I don't lose sleep wondering how they do it without me!
ruprecht.
I'm not saying that SO's aren't important, after all they are third in command
but to say that they're just as important as the captain and the FO is just plain ludicrous. Sure, an extra set of eyes is always useful, but if they were necessary for the safe operation of the aircraft then wouldn't they be carried on every flight? Gee, how do the 767 guys cope if they're operating 2 pilot and neither of them have been to the destination in a couple of weeks.
As an SO I do my job, monitor what's going on and speak up when I need to, but I don't lose sleep wondering how they do it without me!
ruprecht.
I don't lose any sleep over it either. I just consider myself to be a significant team member, and not a back seat passenger who speaks up only when he needs to. Most crews (and we are talking about the Capt and FO here) that I fly with value my contribution and presence, and consider me an equal member of the team.
You, Ruprecht, are equally important as any other member of the team responsible for moving the jet from A to B. Hell, they can't log their overtime without you can they? In my book that alone makes me seriously important.
You, Ruprecht, are equally important as any other member of the team responsible for moving the jet from A to B. Hell, they can't log their overtime without you can they? In my book that alone makes me seriously important.
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Bushy & Speedjet.
I am sick of hearing about "poor RFDS pilots getting one quarter of the pay of QF S/O's"
OR
"poor Dash-8 Captains and First Officers who also have to pass QF Psych and Skills, Do Sims and line checks to same standards as QF, yet are paid less than a mainline Flight Attendant.
WAH WAH
If you don't like it GET A BETTER JOB!! Get an S/O job (IF YOU CAN!!!)
Don't whinge about what you don't have. Get off your AR$E and make it happen.
I am sick of hearing about "poor RFDS pilots getting one quarter of the pay of QF S/O's"
OR
"poor Dash-8 Captains and First Officers who also have to pass QF Psych and Skills, Do Sims and line checks to same standards as QF, yet are paid less than a mainline Flight Attendant.
WAH WAH
If you don't like it GET A BETTER JOB!! Get an S/O job (IF YOU CAN!!!)
Don't whinge about what you don't have. Get off your AR$E and make it happen.
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Ibol
Spoken like a true pratt.
No wonder people make fun of Qantas Skygods like yourself.
For your information the "poor old RFDS pilot" as you put it has to display a high degree of skill and judgement and make serious decisions on a regular basis and often after having being woken at all hours.
A respectable job that is not only essential but also saves many lives as well as serving the community (unlike yourself Ibol).
Despite what you might think many aviators chose this employer for a number of reasons such as the challenge, camaraderie, living in the bush as well as a sense of community.
The pay is secondary as long as those employed can make ends meet.
Think carefully next time Ibol before opening your very well fed trap!
Spoken like a true pratt.
No wonder people make fun of Qantas Skygods like yourself.
For your information the "poor old RFDS pilot" as you put it has to display a high degree of skill and judgement and make serious decisions on a regular basis and often after having being woken at all hours.
A respectable job that is not only essential but also saves many lives as well as serving the community (unlike yourself Ibol).
Despite what you might think many aviators chose this employer for a number of reasons such as the challenge, camaraderie, living in the bush as well as a sense of community.
The pay is secondary as long as those employed can make ends meet.
Think carefully next time Ibol before opening your very well fed trap!
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Couldnt have put it better myself Bulkhead.
Ibol me thinks needs a dose of reality tempered with a dash of humility.
Were you the kid that used to get bashed and never had any lunch money because the big boys took it from you Ibol?
Stop being so god-damned sanctimonious.
Ibol me thinks needs a dose of reality tempered with a dash of humility.
Were you the kid that used to get bashed and never had any lunch money because the big boys took it from you Ibol?
Stop being so god-damned sanctimonious.