Be Honest with Yourself HI'er

[HI'er]

I received my writ at 0138, so we must live (or did) next door to eachother. Let's get together for a beer. Writs at 0137/8??? Yeah right!

Perhaps they lived in different suburbs/cities/states.
There is more than one process server working in Australia.
The point is though, your futile attempts to re-write/distort history have been shown up - by an independent source, Sky Pirates by Brad Norrington - to be nothing more than that.

36 writs were issued by the companies during the period a couple of you attempted to argue it would not have been possible to have done so.
The AFAP was a couple of steps ahead of the companies on that one.

The model aircraft engine refers to you ys120fz (not relax737), you clearly identified exactly whom you were from the time you started posting under that nom de plume, being the great lover of model airplanes....."YS is the manufacturer and it's 1.2 cu inch or about 2 bhp....But I don't fly model aircraft" Of course you don't - EVERYONE knows the specs you just cited.

[Casper]

The model aircraft engine wasn't lifted from a shop in Japan, was it?

[ys120fz]

HI'er you are a goose.

I have a freind who owns a YS engine, a much smaller one though, a .53 cu in I think. Incidentally, they are the most powerful four stroke model engines produced.

When a reference was made to model engines, I merely typed YS120fz into a google search and guess what??I don't think my frine dbought from the Osaka shopper, but I can check if it's relevant

I would stand by my original claim that NO writs were isued between 0200 and 1000 except for, of course, KaptinKlink's and mine.The writer of Sky Pirates didn't get it all right, so one must regard all with suspicion

I'm off flying

[Pass-A-Frozo]

I feel your "concerns" for the workers at Kalbarri are nothing more than crocodile tears. Instead you are more than likely a money-orientated entrepeneur whose business was affected by those "greedy pilots".

Not even close to the mark mate!
I think the only thing close was greedy pilots.
Pretty amusing though that someone who asked for an extra $40,000 a year in one go would refer to other people as "money-orientated". To quote John McEnroe "You cannot be serious!"

Or does it explain your pretty rabid "anti union/anti Labour" stance that you and almost everyone else in the ADF share?

What's your basis for inferring "almost everyone" in the ADF is anti union/labour???

[Sykes]

What's your basis for inferring "almost everyone" in the ADF is anti union/labour???

22 years of being a member of the Army, and having extensive association with the Airforce and Navy during this time.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

I've always thought of the ADF as a nest of union sympathisers.

[HI'er]

Pretty amusing though that someone who asked for an extra $40,000 a year in one go would refer to other people as "money-orientated".

It wouldn't matter if someone asked for an extra $160k per year - it's called an ambit claim - a routine system both sides utilise during contract negotiations, in most all private companies in Australia.

You seem a little (in fact quite a lot) removed from The Real World P-A-F, as far as industrial relations and the workplace are concerned, from the naievete of many of your challenges and subsequent responses.
Are you a former communist Russian by any chance?
Used to having public rights suppressed?
Perhaps as Sykes suggests, you've spent a sheltered life in the Public Service, removed from the need to have to bargain to maintain your conditions?

[Pass-A-Frozo]

You seem a little (in fact quite a lot) removed from The Real World P-A-F, as far as industrial relations and the workplace are concerned, from the naievete of many of your challenges and subsequent responses.

A common throw away line from people with your opinion. "If you don't agree with me, you must not know what the 'real world' is like. You are naive to think you didn't strike and it "wasn't your fault".
I'm curious - if you think the public service is "sheltered life" [i presume you mean easy money] and an easy way to get good pay and conditions, then why aren't you in it?
I bet I know... you didn't try hard enough in school did you?
You didn't do your homework , so you went out a bought yourself a pilots licence.

[HI'er]

if you think the public service is "sheltered life" [i presume you mean easy money] and an easy way to get good pay and conditions, then why aren't you in it?

I wanted to work for a living, and do something positive with my life

Again, I don't understand your petty obsession with "strike" - if YOU feel better saying we were "on strike" then go ahead - in that case the Air Force was used as "strikebreakers", and those pilots involved would thus have qualified as scab labour.
That IS your inference, I take it?
Our availability was from 0900 -1700 - a straight 8 hours (just like other "ordinary" Australians), but with no time off for morning and afternoon tea breaks or lunch, and no "flexi time"
Following any duty period, there is a stipulated minimum rest period that must be adhered to.
It's pretty obvious that as we were all working the same hours as other "ordinary" Australians, then our rest periods would also fall concurrently.
This period we were not available for work was not a withdrawal of labour - it was a Government decreed, mandatory rest period.

As for the licence, yep you're right.
Any mug can get into an airline by simply doing a pilot's licence.
In some countries you can even join as a cadet, and the company will pay for your training - and the $$$'s are fanbloodytastic.
Why anyone would want to stay in a dead-end p.s. job is beyond me - although I guess one is always GUARANTEED progression there simply by sticking it out for years on end.
It takes all types.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

This is going nowhere. Fact remains, you didn't hold up your end of the contract, you cost people millions and got scared of being held to account so you quit. Now you are out of a job.

Such an attack on our public service! At least they show up to work without striking for a 30% pay rise!

I like how you call your situation the real world. Well, in the "real world" people are payed what they are worth, not what they think they should be. They qualify and hold there jobs based on what their skills are, not some outdated notion of "It's my job for life, and you'll pay me what I ask".

[HI'er]

They qualify and hold there jobs based on what their skills are, not some outdated notion of "It's my job for life, and you'll pay me what I ask".

At least we agree on one thing!

Now you are out of a job.

Not at all.
I think your Frozo would melt pretty quickly if you knew how much I'm paid for my worth - certainly a lot more than my original salary + the extra $60k you thought was excessive.
Still, nothing beats the security of 9-5, 5 days a week, does it!

[TopTup]

Damn I wish this '89 debate would die. What happened then and the ramifications are real. Opinions of good and bad are real and do not deny cut very deep, to say the least. But the hatred that is brewed and nurtured in so many circles for so many years is pathetic. How long till you all retire? But then again you've probably infected enough in your travels to keep the infection spreading......

What is left is what we have, for better or worse, and it isn't changing, if anything continuing to change with the advent of LCC wordwide, economies, etc. You don't like it, leave - please.

I know of young pilots applying for jobs, invited for the interview, and been told that due to what their father did / did not do that they are classified in the same boat, and therefore never apply again.

The hatred and bigotry from both camps is a cancer we all can do without. I can't fathom waking in the morning, every day with that hatred churning inside, but so many after now 16 years do so with such desire.

I for one love my job but despise those characters I fly with determined to poison so many others with their insideous biases and self righteousness FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE CAMP!

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Still, nothing beats the security of 9-5, 5 days a week, does it!

Haven't held a job with those hours for 11 years!

[Richard Kranium]

Hey HI'er...if the air force pilots qualify as scabs as you say, how come they are NOT on the scab list?

[amos2]

Ah! Yes!...the poor old scabs.

Still trying to justify their actions after 16 yrs.

Get over it guys and get on with life.

You are what you are.

Learn to live with with it and move on.

Nobody cares about you anymore!!

[HI'er]

Hey Richard....because they are part of the Armed Forces, and were under orders. In other words it wasn't a voluntary decision. Do it or be court martialled.
Hawke probably WOULD have volunteered (to scab), but he couldn't get past first solo

[Richard Kranium]

Ah...ok...that's like the German soldiers in the death camps were under orders and nobody knew anything about it, so any unreasonable order in the ADF will be carried out no matter what, how come there are names on that list that should not be there, and names that should be there aren't.

Strangely there is a list of airlines from overseas and the list of foreign pilots that flew with them, would you consider that they were required to fly those aircraft, kind of under orders.

How come strangely, one certain airline that flew during the dispute is not listed, would be that because a certain Chief Pilot from the 737 aero club flew for them shortly after the dispute in August '89.

Would you consider that some of the "scabs" as you call them had different circumstances, and maybe had enoumous pressure to go back or else...do you consider that reasonable or totally unreasonable considering some of us can also be under sort of orders.

So no one is alowed to make any decision that does not agree with you or your '89er mates exactly at any such time as suits your position or argument.....gee sound very democratic to me all that, you '89er seem to have an answer for everything at any time.

[HI'er]

You know Richard, you have hit the nail fairly and squarely on the head.
Anyone who wanted to find an excuse could. However the majority believed there was a lot more at stake that outweighed selfish quick gain gratification.

The mess that Australian airline aviation is in TODAY, is almost certainly the end product of a process that had its wheels set in motion 16 years ago.

"Get over it - Forget it"
Tell that to the NOW Generation of Australian airline pilots who are struggling to get themselves recognition for the years of service they have spent to get where they are.

That, my friend, is why the List is STILL relevant today, 16 years (and beyond) on.
Perhaps not as much the actual names, but the relatively small number it represents when compared to ALL the other Australian pilots who did NOT sell out their friends, their profession, and the principles the MAJORITY of us respect and try to protect.

[Woomera]

OK that's enough for this topic don't you think.

Thank you all for remaining civilised, albeit maybe, through clenched teeth.

In the early days 100 posts used to be the limit for bandwidth limitations, this is no longer the case.

We do however apply other markers, one of which is moderator "eye glazing", another "repetition", the test for which allows maybe three times around a circle in any one thread.

There are many many PPRuNers from all sides who have thankfully attained a form of catharsis by their participation in the discussions here, there are still some who resolutely refuse to let go.

It seems as if they do the "facts" will change.

The "facts" according to all sides will not be changed by the other regardless.

It is right that every now and then, the effects for all sides should be discussed.

I would be totally amazed if there is anything new that has not been revealed here over the last 4 or 5 years.

I do not mean to trivialise the issue, but there must be a way we can all move on.

Until the next time. click!