August 24th
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August 24th
Well time zones aside, it will very soon be August 24th, sixteen years since the "Dispute". And I am led one more time to reflect on the cost to our (Australian pilots) community, of the lack of a single pilot union.
This anniversary is important, not just to those who were there, but to all who fear the cost of a House divided. Why do Dixon and Branson et al do what they do? BECAUSE THEY CAN! And there has only ever been one way to defeat such people..... solidarity, which in practical terms, means one union.
I know there'll be many crying "old history" etc (often meaning "please forget that I was a Scab") but the truth is this stuff can and will happen again, if we allow ourselves to be divided and put self interest ahead of good careers and a safe working environment.
I'm proud to remain an AFAP member in good standing. I'm proud of the 777 I fly and I'm proud to have once flown with those who, having built a single pilot union in the years after WW2, gave me the opportunities to be where I am now.
Let us all learn from history or assuredly, we will learn from history. I'm in Rome now, and will probably not have the chance to raise a glass with any '89 colleagues, but my heart is with you.
Safe flying
This anniversary is important, not just to those who were there, but to all who fear the cost of a House divided. Why do Dixon and Branson et al do what they do? BECAUSE THEY CAN! And there has only ever been one way to defeat such people..... solidarity, which in practical terms, means one union.
I know there'll be many crying "old history" etc (often meaning "please forget that I was a Scab") but the truth is this stuff can and will happen again, if we allow ourselves to be divided and put self interest ahead of good careers and a safe working environment.
I'm proud to remain an AFAP member in good standing. I'm proud of the 777 I fly and I'm proud to have once flown with those who, having built a single pilot union in the years after WW2, gave me the opportunities to be where I am now.
Let us all learn from history or assuredly, we will learn from history. I'm in Rome now, and will probably not have the chance to raise a glass with any '89 colleagues, but my heart is with you.
Safe flying
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Why do Dixon and Branson et al do what they do?
I don't want to buy into or discuss the events of 16 years ago - but I think if you are blaming VB for the current state of affairs in Oz then you have to acknowledge those pilots who allowed it to happen.
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Try this on for size.
Imagine that it is 1989 and the market has been deregulated.
Along comes a pom that is starting up a new airline in Oz and advocates 35% lower wages for pilots as well as having to pay for the privilege of being employed by him (ie: pay for your own endorsement) !
Imagine how that would have gone down in 1989 with the AFAP no less!!
Could you actually imagine what would have been their response back then?
JetA_OK - you're right.
These are the same guys that came back to Oz from Europe and did what they themselves would have considered not only disgusting, but blasphemous in 1989.
How times have changed.
Well done boys.
Im looking forward to firstly the excuses then the rants and raves that will surely follow.
Bring it on.........this thread has just hotted up somewhat.
(Sorry to bring you extra work Woomera, but the truth may insult just a few).
Imagine that it is 1989 and the market has been deregulated.
Along comes a pom that is starting up a new airline in Oz and advocates 35% lower wages for pilots as well as having to pay for the privilege of being employed by him (ie: pay for your own endorsement) !
Imagine how that would have gone down in 1989 with the AFAP no less!!
Could you actually imagine what would have been their response back then?
JetA_OK - you're right.
These are the same guys that came back to Oz from Europe and did what they themselves would have considered not only disgusting, but blasphemous in 1989.
How times have changed.
Well done boys.
Im looking forward to firstly the excuses then the rants and raves that will surely follow.
Bring it on.........this thread has just hotted up somewhat.
(Sorry to bring you extra work Woomera, but the truth may insult just a few).
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This urban myth of rich expats coming home to destroy the conditions of honest God-fearing domestic pilots ought to be put to bed once and for all.
The group whose selfish approach to wages destroyed 4 airlines and cost billions were those who elected to cross picket lines to get what were by any standards obscenely high pay rates. They were the ones that wrecked things. Those who came later simply played with the cards dealt to them. Are you honestly suggesting that if they'd stayed 'in Europe" that NO OTHER pilot would have bought his/her rating and taken the slots?
And by the way, paying for your rating had been going on in GA forever. The only group who tried and still do (thanks Lawrie Cox et al) to lift GA conditions in this and many areas was and is the AFAP.
The group whose selfish approach to wages destroyed 4 airlines and cost billions were those who elected to cross picket lines to get what were by any standards obscenely high pay rates. They were the ones that wrecked things. Those who came later simply played with the cards dealt to them. Are you honestly suggesting that if they'd stayed 'in Europe" that NO OTHER pilot would have bought his/her rating and taken the slots?
And by the way, paying for your rating had been going on in GA forever. The only group who tried and still do (thanks Lawrie Cox et al) to lift GA conditions in this and many areas was and is the AFAP.
Yes I have to buy into this. I agree entirely elektra.
Branson et al would have started anyhow, just using less experienced GA guys etc. The ops culture of VB no doubt benefitted from the wealth of experience those guys returned with. Essentially it was also the only gig.
When observing pilots from both sides of the dispute fence I use the 'good guy' factor. Invariably those whose stayed out seem to be gentlemen/women whereas many of the 'returnees' I have met are total pr!cks. Many of these individuals repeated their selfish action when AN fell, by trying to shaft yet a new batch of pilots.
I hope we as a profession can regroup but those returnees back then lowered the bar so far by allowing a united group to be divided, it will be difficult to raise it again. I fear only the law of supply and demand will prevail. Jetstar to the US etc - what a great way to keep us divided.
The fastest way to regain working conditions at this stage is to ensure the AFAP and AIPA join as one united group.
Branson et al would have started anyhow, just using less experienced GA guys etc. The ops culture of VB no doubt benefitted from the wealth of experience those guys returned with. Essentially it was also the only gig.
When observing pilots from both sides of the dispute fence I use the 'good guy' factor. Invariably those whose stayed out seem to be gentlemen/women whereas many of the 'returnees' I have met are total pr!cks. Many of these individuals repeated their selfish action when AN fell, by trying to shaft yet a new batch of pilots.
I hope we as a profession can regroup but those returnees back then lowered the bar so far by allowing a united group to be divided, it will be difficult to raise it again. I fear only the law of supply and demand will prevail. Jetstar to the US etc - what a great way to keep us divided.
The fastest way to regain working conditions at this stage is to ensure the AFAP and AIPA join as one united group.
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You gentlemen are quite correct. Just before AN finally fell over, I recall seeing "heroes" (some over 60 years of age!) crowding the AN sim centre to obtain A320 ratings in order to grab the few positions in a proposed AN A320 operation. Even the younger and already A320 rated pilots in AN were disgusted at the actions of these "heroes."
They had and continue to have no shame.
They had and continue to have no shame.
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...... and if Gough Whitlam hadn't been so foully shafted by some other Heroes, life would be different now, bleat, moan, whinge.....
Every year (or more often, depending on how Kaptin M's spleen is feeling) we trot out this old chestnut, fill a dozen pages with bile and vitriol, nobody changes his point of view, and bitter and twisted souls wait for next year.
1989. Gone a long time. Get over it.
Every year (or more often, depending on how Kaptin M's spleen is feeling) we trot out this old chestnut, fill a dozen pages with bile and vitriol, nobody changes his point of view, and bitter and twisted souls wait for next year.
1989. Gone a long time. Get over it.
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Very true Kaptin M about the repercussions still being felt.
The point I made though was how the AFAP would have felt back in 89 about an operator like Branson coming onto the scene and not only slashing wages and conditions, but making pilots pay for their endorsement.
Sure, we know some other sleezebag would have tried the same but why should things be any different now?
Operators like VB and Jetstar lay the bait, dangle the carrot and these kids just come rolling up falling over themselves to not only pay for their endorsement, but also having lower wages and conditions.
Sure, we know its similar to GA but wasnt that what working for an airline was all about? - company's doing things professionally and having their own Check and Training Dept that actually endorses its own crews?
Kaptin M - you're obviously very happy doing your own thing in Japan and I applaud that.
Getting paid alot more money than being home in sunny BNE working for VB on alot less money and having to work alot harder.
And you dont have to spend a small fortune on a B737 endorsement if not endorsed (which incidentally your employer probably spent quite a bit of money for you to qualify for the JCAB equivalent).
I wonder what old man Holt, Mr McCarthy and the other AFAP lads would have thought about this practice of paying for endorsements and lower wages/less conditions.
The point I made though was how the AFAP would have felt back in 89 about an operator like Branson coming onto the scene and not only slashing wages and conditions, but making pilots pay for their endorsement.
Sure, we know some other sleezebag would have tried the same but why should things be any different now?
Operators like VB and Jetstar lay the bait, dangle the carrot and these kids just come rolling up falling over themselves to not only pay for their endorsement, but also having lower wages and conditions.
Sure, we know its similar to GA but wasnt that what working for an airline was all about? - company's doing things professionally and having their own Check and Training Dept that actually endorses its own crews?
Kaptin M - you're obviously very happy doing your own thing in Japan and I applaud that.
Getting paid alot more money than being home in sunny BNE working for VB on alot less money and having to work alot harder.
And you dont have to spend a small fortune on a B737 endorsement if not endorsed (which incidentally your employer probably spent quite a bit of money for you to qualify for the JCAB equivalent).
I wonder what old man Holt, Mr McCarthy and the other AFAP lads would have thought about this practice of paying for endorsements and lower wages/less conditions.
Last edited by Beer Can Dreaming; 25th Aug 2005 at 01:32.
If the conditions of service of professional pilots in Australia could have a military analogy drawn, I would suggest we met our Waterloo in two places in the war lost over the last 16 years.
Firstly, the fatal decision to resign en masse during the industrial confrontation of 1989.
Secondly, the practice of paying for airline training enforced as a normal practice by Virgin Blue. This locking pilots into miniscule sub-inflation EBA gains as attrition of dissatisfied pilots has no bottom line effects.
Is there a common protagonist in the above Waterloos? Could we call the Chief Pilot of Virgin Blue Napolean Bonaparte?
After the complete destruction of the pilot Empire, will Napolean take his 17 million dollars and live an Elba like exile on the Sunshine coast?
Firstly, the fatal decision to resign en masse during the industrial confrontation of 1989.
Secondly, the practice of paying for airline training enforced as a normal practice by Virgin Blue. This locking pilots into miniscule sub-inflation EBA gains as attrition of dissatisfied pilots has no bottom line effects.
Is there a common protagonist in the above Waterloos? Could we call the Chief Pilot of Virgin Blue Napolean Bonaparte?
After the complete destruction of the pilot Empire, will Napolean take his 17 million dollars and live an Elba like exile on the Sunshine coast?
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Gradenburg, to continue the military analogy, I believe our Stalingrad (or retreat from Moscow if you want to stay Napoleonic) was the fateful day the QF pilots left the AFAP to form AIPA.
Like the German Wermachtof WW2 and Napoleon's Grande Armee, we might still have had a bit of fight left in us, but our fate was sealed from that sorry date – and there were some of us who recognised the fact at the time. But I have to say, I didn't ever predict how utterly we would defeat ourselves, when the 'realists' went back 'for the sake of their families' or whatever other excuse came to mind.
Am I bitter towards those people? Strangely enough, not particularly, for, I have to admit, that after a few pretty hard years re-establishing myself elsewhere in the industry, like most others in a similar situation, I've done probably a lot better for myself than I would have done had 89 never happened.
But to maintain the military analogy, I can't forget that the heroes didn't just surrender to the 'other side', they climbed out of our trenches and into the opposing trenches and promptly aimed and fired their guns at us, their former colleagues.
And when it was all over and the other side had 'won', (what turned out to be a Phyrric victory for many), the likes of Dick Marman - with the enthusiastic support of the vast majority of his heroic colleagues - went to considerable lengths, even going to court, to ensure that, (apart from the token 12 apostles), those non-heroes who'd stayed in the trenches would never get a foot in the door of mainline aviation in Australia again.
Like the German Wermachtof WW2 and Napoleon's Grande Armee, we might still have had a bit of fight left in us, but our fate was sealed from that sorry date – and there were some of us who recognised the fact at the time. But I have to say, I didn't ever predict how utterly we would defeat ourselves, when the 'realists' went back 'for the sake of their families' or whatever other excuse came to mind.
Am I bitter towards those people? Strangely enough, not particularly, for, I have to admit, that after a few pretty hard years re-establishing myself elsewhere in the industry, like most others in a similar situation, I've done probably a lot better for myself than I would have done had 89 never happened.
But to maintain the military analogy, I can't forget that the heroes didn't just surrender to the 'other side', they climbed out of our trenches and into the opposing trenches and promptly aimed and fired their guns at us, their former colleagues.
And when it was all over and the other side had 'won', (what turned out to be a Phyrric victory for many), the likes of Dick Marman - with the enthusiastic support of the vast majority of his heroic colleagues - went to considerable lengths, even going to court, to ensure that, (apart from the token 12 apostles), those non-heroes who'd stayed in the trenches would never get a foot in the door of mainline aviation in Australia again.
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To continue the military analogy fun some more..
During that fateful campaign of 1988+1 the good old boys liked to compare their battle to the Battle of Brittan. They saw themselves like allied pilots up against the Hun.
I saw them as Luftwaffe pilots, brave, skilled, and determined; but at the behest of megalomaniac leaders.
Imagine out there in cyberspace the LuPo bulletin board where the surviving veterans remind each other of the good old days. And how they were betrayed by that rat Hess.
During that fateful campaign of 1988+1 the good old boys liked to compare their battle to the Battle of Brittan. They saw themselves like allied pilots up against the Hun.
I saw them as Luftwaffe pilots, brave, skilled, and determined; but at the behest of megalomaniac leaders.
Imagine out there in cyberspace the LuPo bulletin board where the surviving veterans remind each other of the good old days. And how they were betrayed by that rat Hess.
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Errr MTOW, can you tell me what Phyrric means, as this forum seem to want to bring out superfluous words by individulas that seem to make out they are learned person of some kind.
The other thing that is annoying is when someone has nothing intelectual to add to the thread, they seem to instantly become English teachers, looking for spelling mistakes or incorrect grammar or attacking some other weak area like their pseudonym for instance Get a Life I say there are better things to worry about.
The Qantas boys were smart for leaving the AFAP, they could see there was nothing in it for them to stay, and it has proven right, Ansett and TAA at the time should have done the same and formed their own union on an individual company basis, thus Ansett Pilots look after their own interest and do whats best for them, same would go for Australian, and that's what AIPA is about, if they stuff it up its for the Qantas peole to sort out.
The 24th of August resignation was an act of an inadequate and naive leadership, "look I've shot myself in the foot and if you missed it look I'll do it again in the other foot", the membership was told it was never really going to use the resignation papers, only to be used as a lever of some kind to get the airlines to capitulate, that's like signing a blank cheque, who does that, yeah I know only a dill.
Dick Marman did nothing but to make sure that there would not be any more disunity, Ansett and Australian had no interest of having the very same people that cost them millions of dollars and wrecked businesses all over Australia back in the ranks to cause more trouble and disunity, Graeme McMahaon was right, he would consider only the guys that had loyalty to Ansett or Australian, and not to a bloody minded union after all who is giving you a career and paying your wages, so if you wanted to come back after the AFAP told you could go and apply for your job back....guess what!!!
The AFAP wanted respodency to the new airline award and they wanted to tell the companies who they are to hire...I mean what planet did they think they were on this was beyond belief, they still couldn't figure out that it wasn't their train set, managment at Ansett and Australian are the only ones that will call the shots in anything they want when it came to running their own businesses, so I say get used to it, its like that with every company once you resign from your company your on your own.
But this all is about some "god given right" the union members thought they had, they had their heads so for up each others arses that they could not smell the coffee or roses, but only believed ther own moronic rhetoric that they cannot be replaced, to the height of, if they didn't want to go back, then no one else had the right either, that can be described as obscene arrogance, that can only be displayed and uttered by boofheads.
There were no trenches, all this Anzac stuff with your backs to the wall what a load of cr@p, this was not war in a real sense, you '89ers were just a stupid lot that can't even till to-day stand in front of a mirror and look at youself and say I was to blame, I blindly followed a leadership that was just out of control and wanted to make a name for itself and go down in history and be heroes not the other heroes, well they certainly did that, more like dickh@*&s.
Oh someone mentioned Ryanair, and what a terrible company it is, look at what they make their pilots do etc....geeewizz...I gues you won't be applying for a job there then, as the old saying goes, one mans poison is another mans meat, ohhh but the '89ers could never understand that, everybody has to think and abide the their own distorted ideology.
The other thing that is annoying is when someone has nothing intelectual to add to the thread, they seem to instantly become English teachers, looking for spelling mistakes or incorrect grammar or attacking some other weak area like their pseudonym for instance Get a Life I say there are better things to worry about.
The Qantas boys were smart for leaving the AFAP, they could see there was nothing in it for them to stay, and it has proven right, Ansett and TAA at the time should have done the same and formed their own union on an individual company basis, thus Ansett Pilots look after their own interest and do whats best for them, same would go for Australian, and that's what AIPA is about, if they stuff it up its for the Qantas peole to sort out.
The 24th of August resignation was an act of an inadequate and naive leadership, "look I've shot myself in the foot and if you missed it look I'll do it again in the other foot", the membership was told it was never really going to use the resignation papers, only to be used as a lever of some kind to get the airlines to capitulate, that's like signing a blank cheque, who does that, yeah I know only a dill.
Dick Marman did nothing but to make sure that there would not be any more disunity, Ansett and Australian had no interest of having the very same people that cost them millions of dollars and wrecked businesses all over Australia back in the ranks to cause more trouble and disunity, Graeme McMahaon was right, he would consider only the guys that had loyalty to Ansett or Australian, and not to a bloody minded union after all who is giving you a career and paying your wages, so if you wanted to come back after the AFAP told you could go and apply for your job back....guess what!!!
The AFAP wanted respodency to the new airline award and they wanted to tell the companies who they are to hire...I mean what planet did they think they were on this was beyond belief, they still couldn't figure out that it wasn't their train set, managment at Ansett and Australian are the only ones that will call the shots in anything they want when it came to running their own businesses, so I say get used to it, its like that with every company once you resign from your company your on your own.
But this all is about some "god given right" the union members thought they had, they had their heads so for up each others arses that they could not smell the coffee or roses, but only believed ther own moronic rhetoric that they cannot be replaced, to the height of, if they didn't want to go back, then no one else had the right either, that can be described as obscene arrogance, that can only be displayed and uttered by boofheads.
There were no trenches, all this Anzac stuff with your backs to the wall what a load of cr@p, this was not war in a real sense, you '89ers were just a stupid lot that can't even till to-day stand in front of a mirror and look at youself and say I was to blame, I blindly followed a leadership that was just out of control and wanted to make a name for itself and go down in history and be heroes not the other heroes, well they certainly did that, more like dickh@*&s.
Oh someone mentioned Ryanair, and what a terrible company it is, look at what they make their pilots do etc....geeewizz...I gues you won't be applying for a job there then, as the old saying goes, one mans poison is another mans meat, ohhh but the '89ers could never understand that, everybody has to think and abide the their own distorted ideology.
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Wow, bet it feels better to have got that off your chest! Is there ANYTHING else you left out that the '89 pilots are responsible for? Global warming, the Ebola virus, suicide bombers, Tibet, TESNA?
It is of course true that any individual pilot, or indeed group of pilots, can do better for themselves than for the pilot body as a whole by single mindedly pursuing self interest. That is the case with much of life. The issue at hand here is whether for the entire pilot body, some small level of common input can result in a better output for the wider group. That is the basis of a seniority list, where we all agreed to put aside our individual aims and hopes, in favour of an ordered progression. Hardly a giant concept nor revolutionary.
I could have been stinking rich by now had I accepted the offer made to me back then to take a pay rise far greater than that which the union asked for. A small percentage did take that bait. And the real price paid was the demise, right or wrong, of the collective force of a united pilot body. Results seen today on these forums.
"Me first" leads to the situation back at aero clubs in the 60's where individuals would occasionally over stress the wings on the Chipmunks but never put it in the maintenance log. Great for that pilot who put "me first" but a bit rough on the wider group any one of whom might be flying that aircraft next. "Me first" would see us going straight out the cockpit window after an accident, rather than hanging about to help the other pilot or EVEN the passengers.
As for your flowery rhetoric, the Dispute has been over 16 years. Those prompt sheets the US industrial psychologists gave you then to help you justify your betrayal belong in a museum or even the BBQ. They were not relevant then, remain irrelevant today. Think for yourself and get over what you did. I bear you no ill will, possess no venom that would frighten you. You're just an angry dill who still can't quite sleep at nights after what you did.
I know the world I would rather have.....I commend it to you.
It is of course true that any individual pilot, or indeed group of pilots, can do better for themselves than for the pilot body as a whole by single mindedly pursuing self interest. That is the case with much of life. The issue at hand here is whether for the entire pilot body, some small level of common input can result in a better output for the wider group. That is the basis of a seniority list, where we all agreed to put aside our individual aims and hopes, in favour of an ordered progression. Hardly a giant concept nor revolutionary.
I could have been stinking rich by now had I accepted the offer made to me back then to take a pay rise far greater than that which the union asked for. A small percentage did take that bait. And the real price paid was the demise, right or wrong, of the collective force of a united pilot body. Results seen today on these forums.
"Me first" leads to the situation back at aero clubs in the 60's where individuals would occasionally over stress the wings on the Chipmunks but never put it in the maintenance log. Great for that pilot who put "me first" but a bit rough on the wider group any one of whom might be flying that aircraft next. "Me first" would see us going straight out the cockpit window after an accident, rather than hanging about to help the other pilot or EVEN the passengers.
As for your flowery rhetoric, the Dispute has been over 16 years. Those prompt sheets the US industrial psychologists gave you then to help you justify your betrayal belong in a museum or even the BBQ. They were not relevant then, remain irrelevant today. Think for yourself and get over what you did. I bear you no ill will, possess no venom that would frighten you. You're just an angry dill who still can't quite sleep at nights after what you did.
I know the world I would rather have.....I commend it to you.
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A VIGNETTE
Lightly imbued with the stamp of Henry Lawson, and the swag carrying exemplars enshrined in his imperishable stories, those on the wallaby that were always there, in sunshine or in shadow, today he has in a country town his third business venture since his demobilisation in that year of little grace, 1989.
A friend, confidant and workmate spanning 31 years, he will ever be to me "a broth of a boy".
A woman friend of his, proprietor of the next door coffee shop, dropped in one morning. While they were in conversation a former work associate of his from the eighties came in, said "Good morning - just browsing", and walked among the shelves.
My friend did not look at him, acknowledge his presence, let alone the greeting. The caller was as the invisible man. When he left the shop a short time later, the woman, knowing something of the seeds of contention, asked with some asperity: "Why did you snub him? Why can you not bury the hatchet after all this time?"
Quietly, and in a tone brooking no further talk on the subject, the response was:
"He took my job."
A friend, confidant and workmate spanning 31 years, he will ever be to me "a broth of a boy".
A woman friend of his, proprietor of the next door coffee shop, dropped in one morning. While they were in conversation a former work associate of his from the eighties came in, said "Good morning - just browsing", and walked among the shelves.
My friend did not look at him, acknowledge his presence, let alone the greeting. The caller was as the invisible man. When he left the shop a short time later, the woman, knowing something of the seeds of contention, asked with some asperity: "Why did you snub him? Why can you not bury the hatchet after all this time?"
Quietly, and in a tone brooking no further talk on the subject, the response was:
"He took my job."
Last edited by jokova; 4th Oct 2005 at 23:05.
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How come I missed this thread back when it started? Well better late than never.
I suppose the fact that there have been only a handful on posts in response, including two of the topic starters, indicates the degree of interest most have in the subject 16, yes 16!!! years down the track.
Gnadenburg, you got it right with a couple of one liners. Concise and precise as they say.
Elektra, you're copping a bit of what you losers dished out to the nice guys for 16 years. You are actaully responsible for many, many ills in the aviation industry we now see.
The poor old nice guys have ben blamed for everything from ingrown toenails, haemorrhoids, to rising sea levels, el nino, failed space missions and eclipses of the sun.
Elektra you right one one point. If those who went back hadn't, then others would have. Either way it was doomed. Infact many of those who were supposedly strong applied and were rejected or just didn't get there in time. So don't give me the bull$hit about principles.
Incontinentia Butocs, like Gnadenburg, I have much to agree with in your post.
I'm sure you enjoy being in Rome elektra, just as I enjoy travelling the world, but it indicates a certain immaturity to spruik it. I'm surprised you didn't tell us you had just visited the Vatican museum, after captaining your Boeing 777 across the world, (sound strangely Qantas?) and were sitting in the outdoor cafe just opposite the exit with a litro vino bianco, taking in the sights on your ten day Rome turn around and looking forwad with great anticipation to getting back to your hotel room so you could call your wife.
Are you the one who posted elsewhere about "His beloved 777"? Oh gawd help us.
Certainly sounds like your ego is healthy.
jokova, I bet that really hurt the shopper. In fact I'd be willing to bet he considered suicide after that snub. Like F&^% he did. More likely he didn't even notice it.
I suppose the fact that there have been only a handful on posts in response, including two of the topic starters, indicates the degree of interest most have in the subject 16, yes 16!!! years down the track.
Gnadenburg, you got it right with a couple of one liners. Concise and precise as they say.
Elektra, you're copping a bit of what you losers dished out to the nice guys for 16 years. You are actaully responsible for many, many ills in the aviation industry we now see.
The poor old nice guys have ben blamed for everything from ingrown toenails, haemorrhoids, to rising sea levels, el nino, failed space missions and eclipses of the sun.
Elektra you right one one point. If those who went back hadn't, then others would have. Either way it was doomed. Infact many of those who were supposedly strong applied and were rejected or just didn't get there in time. So don't give me the bull$hit about principles.
Incontinentia Butocs, like Gnadenburg, I have much to agree with in your post.
I'm sure you enjoy being in Rome elektra, just as I enjoy travelling the world, but it indicates a certain immaturity to spruik it. I'm surprised you didn't tell us you had just visited the Vatican museum, after captaining your Boeing 777 across the world, (sound strangely Qantas?) and were sitting in the outdoor cafe just opposite the exit with a litro vino bianco, taking in the sights on your ten day Rome turn around and looking forwad with great anticipation to getting back to your hotel room so you could call your wife.
Are you the one who posted elsewhere about "His beloved 777"? Oh gawd help us.
Certainly sounds like your ego is healthy.
jokova, I bet that really hurt the shopper. In fact I'd be willing to bet he considered suicide after that snub. Like F&^% he did. More likely he didn't even notice it.
Last edited by Woomera; 5th Oct 2005 at 15:04.
Join Date: Apr 2005
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A little respect . . . .
. . . . would not go astray. Some seek truth, (others, their long suit's abuse) . . . . . .
http://pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=192760
http://pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=192760