QANTAS Hypocrisy??
Don Quixote Impersonator
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Erin feathers not ruffled, just trying somehow to point out that it is because of the "white mans" attitudes of the past, something that was then part of our culture, is the reason why we now have to run these programmes that appear to be a form of reverse discrimination.
In the context of the sixties any young aboriginal who had somehow managed to get the education and licenses presenting himself to Qantas or any airline would have been an object of much embarrassment to the selection board.
The Chauvels groundbreaking movie "Jedda" had only been in circulation less than 10 years.
I am personally fascinated by "Australian"
accents and the language forms used in relation to the "little woman", "foreigners" and "Aboriginals" in the Movietone news and early TV of the times.
Australia was only barely post colonial in the mid sixties and it wasn't until the likes of Holt that we started to shed the colonial habits of the past.
British was best.
It seems unbelievable now, but Qantas were still ordering new DH Rapides whilst the rest of the non British world were operating DC2 types. The KLM DC2 at Albury is more than just interesting for this reason.
Interestingly enough, the Australian Government "Two Airline Policy" grew directly out of TAA, Ansett and Qantas refusing point blank to accept our British motherlands aviation product.
Australia did not have very large US Dollar reserves, the motherland British Government was selling aircraft the way they always have, by EXIM financing, trade offset, subsidy and generally bullying the colonials if necessary. Comets, BAC111 and Vanguards were simply hugely uneconomic against the US Boeing and Lockheed products.
Oz Government finally gave in but to protect the huge for the time, US Dollar investment, (the US manufacturers insisted on real cash money)
, they legislated the protection.
The White Australia Policy wasn't just about the yellow peril, white meant white and Aboriginal half caste children were still being sent to the missions by "native welfare" until the early 70's.
In the context of the sixties any young aboriginal who had somehow managed to get the education and licenses presenting himself to Qantas or any airline would have been an object of much embarrassment to the selection board.
The Chauvels groundbreaking movie "Jedda" had only been in circulation less than 10 years.
I am personally fascinated by "Australian"
accents and the language forms used in relation to the "little woman", "foreigners" and "Aboriginals" in the Movietone news and early TV of the times.Australia was only barely post colonial in the mid sixties and it wasn't until the likes of Holt that we started to shed the colonial habits of the past.
British was best.
It seems unbelievable now, but Qantas were still ordering new DH Rapides whilst the rest of the non British world were operating DC2 types. The KLM DC2 at Albury is more than just interesting for this reason.
Interestingly enough, the Australian Government "Two Airline Policy" grew directly out of TAA, Ansett and Qantas refusing point blank to accept our British motherlands aviation product.
Australia did not have very large US Dollar reserves, the motherland British Government was selling aircraft the way they always have, by EXIM financing, trade offset, subsidy and generally bullying the colonials if necessary. Comets, BAC111 and Vanguards were simply hugely uneconomic against the US Boeing and Lockheed products.
Oz Government finally gave in but to protect the huge for the time, US Dollar investment, (the US manufacturers insisted on real cash money)
, they legislated the protection. The White Australia Policy wasn't just about the yellow peril, white meant white and Aboriginal half caste children were still being sent to the missions by "native welfare"
until the early 70's.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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Re Aboriginal Pilots; what about Len Waters, the Kittyhawk Pilot with 78 Sqn during WW11? According to various articles published in the last few years that I have read about this distinguished gentleman, he claimed to be nothing more than an Australian fighting for his country. And if memory serves me correctly he deplored the hand out mentality that prevailed in the 70's.
I have an article of an interview with him done back in the early 70's somewhere in amongst my 'files'. Will try to find it.
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
I have an article of an interview with him done back in the early 70's somewhere in amongst my 'files'. Will try to find it.
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
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A few years ago my education path found me studying some Aboriginal health subjects, learning about how Australia was occupied under tera nullius (why didn't they teach me that at high school ????), and protesting to maintain indigenous health courses. I became quite good mates with one of the aboriginal guys on the course, and across time became aware of the every day discrimination that he faces that is un-founded and un-fair.
Discrimination comes in many forms - particularly positive discrimination, which I feel that is particularly damaging as it creates more division and descrimination than it resolves. Most of the sentiment expressed in this thread demonstrates my point exactly - people resent the idea that a person because of their heritage, however unfortunate, receive more opportunity than themselves. This is the exact reason that nepotism is a dirty word.
Positive discrimination is still discrimination, because it labels people.
Gaunty, you make the point that if QF want to use aboriginal symbols in their marketing that they should pay for it - I don't dispute this, but the fact is that all along the way they do - they pay the artists handsomly, as well as ongoing royalties, whilst at the same time increasing the penetration of aboriginal culture in society -- it's a win-win. Playing devils advocate, you do not see the Australian-Anglo, or Asian, or American cultures used in Qantas' advertising receiving special consideration..............Once again an example of positive discrimination - it's everywhere.
I'm afraid I am an advocate of a level playing field. There is a problem still with discrimination and I don't know the solution, but I do know what is not the solution, and that is standing two pilots of equal skill and qualification next to each other, and rejecting the white one because of the colour of his skin. THAT is discrimination, the impact of which is felt greates by the minority.
Discrimination comes in many forms - particularly positive discrimination, which I feel that is particularly damaging as it creates more division and descrimination than it resolves. Most of the sentiment expressed in this thread demonstrates my point exactly - people resent the idea that a person because of their heritage, however unfortunate, receive more opportunity than themselves. This is the exact reason that nepotism is a dirty word.
Positive discrimination is still discrimination, because it labels people.
Gaunty, you make the point that if QF want to use aboriginal symbols in their marketing that they should pay for it - I don't dispute this, but the fact is that all along the way they do - they pay the artists handsomly, as well as ongoing royalties, whilst at the same time increasing the penetration of aboriginal culture in society -- it's a win-win. Playing devils advocate, you do not see the Australian-Anglo, or Asian, or American cultures used in Qantas' advertising receiving special consideration..............Once again an example of positive discrimination - it's everywhere.
I'm afraid I am an advocate of a level playing field. There is a problem still with discrimination and I don't know the solution, but I do know what is not the solution, and that is standing two pilots of equal skill and qualification next to each other, and rejecting the white one because of the colour of his skin. THAT is discrimination, the impact of which is felt greates by the minority.
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EQUAL OPPORTUNITY
What has happened to EQUAL OPPORTUNITY in this country.
We need to get over the us and them way of thinking. It is not only limited to the Aboringines and the 'white fellas', but it is everywhere in our lives.
The fact is, that for a society to function correctly, there needs to be people of different levels. The white collars and the blue collars. The haves and the have not's. The Doctors and the Street Sweepers. Everyone has a role to play in forming what is a functioning community.
It also goes a step further when companies implement quotas. We need 20% female, 5% A&TSI, etc. All this does is puts underqualified people into positions and qualified and better suited people out of a job. Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with anyone filling any role as long as you are the best suited and qualified person for that job.
Several years ago I heard of an Australian bank that wanted to open a small branch in New York City. They were told that they needed to employ something like 6 females, 3 people of Mexican heritage, 1 of Red Indian heritage and 2 people with a disability. The CBA only wanted a total staff of about 3 or 4 so consequently never opened the branch.
It would appear that this is not only a local problem. We need to change our mentality to be an 'us' mentality, not an us and them.
MM
We need to get over the us and them way of thinking. It is not only limited to the Aboringines and the 'white fellas', but it is everywhere in our lives.
The fact is, that for a society to function correctly, there needs to be people of different levels. The white collars and the blue collars. The haves and the have not's. The Doctors and the Street Sweepers. Everyone has a role to play in forming what is a functioning community.
It also goes a step further when companies implement quotas. We need 20% female, 5% A&TSI, etc. All this does is puts underqualified people into positions and qualified and better suited people out of a job. Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with anyone filling any role as long as you are the best suited and qualified person for that job.
Several years ago I heard of an Australian bank that wanted to open a small branch in New York City. They were told that they needed to employ something like 6 females, 3 people of Mexican heritage, 1 of Red Indian heritage and 2 people with a disability. The CBA only wanted a total staff of about 3 or 4 so consequently never opened the branch.
It would appear that this is not only a local problem. We need to change our mentality to be an 'us' mentality, not an us and them.
MM
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MM:
Couldn't agree more. No probs with anyone doing any job, regardless of background. But where do you draw the line (with quotas etc.)... when can it be called discrimination against WHITE MALES??? Best person for the job gets it in my opinion.
Couldn't agree more. No probs with anyone doing any job, regardless of background. But where do you draw the line (with quotas etc.)... when can it be called discrimination against WHITE MALES??? Best person for the job gets it in my opinion.
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By the way, the dot paintings by Aboriginals, was actually taught to them by white missionaries. It is not what you would call traditional aboriginal painting.
Where does that get us?
Where does that get us?
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Hmm
You know maybe someone at Qantas believes that both enthnic minorities and women have been overlooked during the selection process. And if thats the case whos to say that we haven't been getting preferential treatment for the last so many years. Its definetly a political issue but Qantas have decided that the only way to overcome these issues or what ever there issues are is to expand their already diverse employee base. I bet that people at Qantas are just as unhappy about the process as some of the pilots here but i also think in reality it is the best way to start bridging the gap in some peoples education. Comments like there won't be many who hold a cpl. Or those who judge them on the basis of what they hear through the news says that we do still need to educate people.
With that said i dont think any company should be aloud to target a specific gender or race for a job, or more importantly discriminate a gender or a race from applying for a job. In fact i thought it was illegal but obviously not.
On the other hand though, even though I don't think they should be able to do it I'm not going to kid myself I know if they advertised for my ethnic group i would be taking full advantage of the situation. This business has always been about who you know and not what you know. I've never sat down and started bitching about how joe bloggs got into xyz company because his father knows someone. In fact i've gone out there and tried to network so i could do the same thing. As far as I can tell the aborogines seem to know one more person then i do now and good for them.
Nicad
(i'm not one to check my spelling)
With that said i dont think any company should be aloud to target a specific gender or race for a job, or more importantly discriminate a gender or a race from applying for a job. In fact i thought it was illegal but obviously not.
On the other hand though, even though I don't think they should be able to do it I'm not going to kid myself I know if they advertised for my ethnic group i would be taking full advantage of the situation. This business has always been about who you know and not what you know. I've never sat down and started bitching about how joe bloggs got into xyz company because his father knows someone. In fact i've gone out there and tried to network so i could do the same thing. As far as I can tell the aborogines seem to know one more person then i do now and good for them.
Nicad
(i'm not one to check my spelling)
Thread Starter
Repro
As I understood it dot paintings were originally maps of their lands. The more modern artistic versions of the dot paintings have had some white influence but the originals were actually aboriginal. How they managed to get topograhical views of their lands is without ever getting in an aeroplane is another matter!
Nicad
Whilst I agree with you point over working smarter and who you know etc, my original point is that QANTAS in all their recruiting documentation go on and on about how they are making the system fair as possible (by making you pay for it) and when you call them they are always going on about how busy they are and how many applications they get, sorry your application has been delayed by 2 months due to the high number of applicants etc etc.
So IF that is all true why the hell do you need indigenous cadetships?? What will it achieve?? Why should an aboriginal pilot be giving extra opportunities over everyone else in such a competitive market place??
As I understood it dot paintings were originally maps of their lands. The more modern artistic versions of the dot paintings have had some white influence but the originals were actually aboriginal. How they managed to get topograhical views of their lands is without ever getting in an aeroplane is another matter!
Nicad
Whilst I agree with you point over working smarter and who you know etc, my original point is that QANTAS in all their recruiting documentation go on and on about how they are making the system fair as possible (by making you pay for it) and when you call them they are always going on about how busy they are and how many applications they get, sorry your application has been delayed by 2 months due to the high number of applicants etc etc.
So IF that is all true why the hell do you need indigenous cadetships?? What will it achieve?? Why should an aboriginal pilot be giving extra opportunities over everyone else in such a competitive market place??
Bottums Up
Neville,
Indiginous cadetships might be needed because most non indiginous children in Australia are not born into sub 3rd world conditions, whereas the same can't be said for most indiginous kids. Most non indiginous kids have reasonably easy access to contemporary schooling. The same can't be said for indigenous kids.
In the Territory, the former CLP government had a policy of not providing secondary schooling facilities at indiginous communities. This policy was rescinded by the current ALP goventment and in 2003 or 2004, the first indigenous students completed year 12 in their home town. This is a feat that most non indiginous students in Australia would take for granted for them selves.
By giving such opportunities, a small building brick is laid in repairing some of the failures of past policies, at little cost/inconvenience to the poor suffering non indiginous folk.
.... why the hell do you need indigenous cadetships?? What will it achieve?? Why should an aboriginal pilot be giving extra opportunities over everyone else in such a competitive market place??
In the Territory, the former CLP government had a policy of not providing secondary schooling facilities at indiginous communities. This policy was rescinded by the current ALP goventment and in 2003 or 2004, the first indigenous students completed year 12 in their home town. This is a feat that most non indiginous students in Australia would take for granted for them selves.
By giving such opportunities, a small building brick is laid in repairing some of the failures of past policies, at little cost/inconvenience to the poor suffering non indiginous folk.
How they managed to get topographical views of their lands is without ever getting an aeroplane is another matter
"Ehh Wen you bin on dat Karva you see dem homelands real good eh"
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In the Territory, the former CLP government had a policy of not providing secondary schooling facilities at indigenous communities.
Regardless of how this ONE PERSON gets into the big Q, at the end of the day check and training don't discriminate and this person will have to meet the same performance requirements as anyone else.
And if it happens to be someone who's come from some hell hole community, managed to get an education, present well in an interview and pass all the required training etc, then good on them.
Bottums Up
psycho,
They may have been sent to boarding school for a "better education" but that concept didn't take into account that as a broad generalisation, indigenous kids don't cope with being away from extended family as well as non indigenous.
Imagine the howls of protest if all the state govts announced a policy that all children not living in the capital city had to attend boarding school because local schools were to be closed!
They may have been sent to boarding school for a "better education" but that concept didn't take into account that as a broad generalisation, indigenous kids don't cope with being away from extended family as well as non indigenous.
Imagine the howls of protest if all the state govts announced a policy that all children not living in the capital city had to attend boarding school because local schools were to be closed!
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Capt,
I've had the experience of flying some of these kids back out to their communities during school holidays. Sure some kids did suffer anxiety from being away from their families, but I've also seen a LOT of Aboriginal kids do almost anything in their power to avoid going back to their community.
I've also flown white kids of station managers etc, who didn't qualify for government private school funding because they weren't indigenous.
As for myself, I grew up in a small country town and would have loved to have gone to a private school instead of the ****e public school we were inflicted with.
I've also flown with Melanesian pilot's who have achieved more with less.
I've had the experience of flying some of these kids back out to their communities during school holidays. Sure some kids did suffer anxiety from being away from their families, but I've also seen a LOT of Aboriginal kids do almost anything in their power to avoid going back to their community.
I've also flown white kids of station managers etc, who didn't qualify for government private school funding because they weren't indigenous.
As for myself, I grew up in a small country town and would have loved to have gone to a private school instead of the ****e public school we were inflicted with.
I've also flown with Melanesian pilot's who have achieved more with less.
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I just want to say its fantastic that QF have put this scholarship together. What a great way to influence other young aboriginal people around the nation! Anyone want to take a shot at how many applied?
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Mate......how long is a peice of string!@#$%^&*....this debate (for lack of a better word) will unfortunately never be resolved.At the end of the day, whomever he/she is , whatever colour their skin is, whatever their racial/cultural background,whatever road/scheme they were apart of be it cadet,ex military,ga......my hats off to anyone who perceivers and achieves his/her ambitions.....we all need a break somewhere down the track so why should that constitute as being less deserving.
I'm sure there will still be plenty of places left for the rest of us....here's hoping that your break comes sooner than later neville.
HD.
I'm sure there will still be plenty of places left for the rest of us....here's hoping that your break comes sooner than later neville.
HD.
