Qwantas crew can't keep hands off each other
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Ronnie your argument seems to be "I had to put up with it so do you". I would hazard a guess that your experience with the seniority system has not been a happy one but you are now in a comfortable position. My point was that the altercation(s) which seem to be a regular part of the Qantas social calendar are unique to the airline. Your angry replies and attempts at brow beating me into submission are just a reflection of that culture. BTW I think the internal surveys conducted by the Company and the Association suggest that seniority is a big issue within all pilot ranks not just Second Officers.
Seniority Systems are an impediment only to those who 'want everything, and want it now'.
And unfortunately, we are to blame. We are the ones that have raised a generation of spoilt brats!
And unfortunately, we are to blame. We are the ones that have raised a generation of spoilt brats!
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I KNOW I AM GOING TO HAVE MY HEAD BITTEN OFF FOR WRITING THIS...but
As an observer of both parties TC and CC. I think this punch up stuff has been a long time coming.(Not sure why) I have seen at many stations around the world where tech and cabin crew will not even look at each other yet alone speak on disembarkation. The tension was as thick a winter fog and for mine this goes back as far as 1995. In both professions there are many wankers (as there are in engineering) but the majority are good people focussed on doing their job.
The bigotry built up thru stereotypes by a few bad apples cannot be constructive for either party/ pay scheme/ profession.
TC and CC both occupy the same workspace no matter which side of the ballistic proof door you reside. QANTAS likes it when they can divide two parties. Some would say the CC are coming under the microscope or pressure more than they deserve but you can bet when the TC are targeted and the conditions for one group have been eroded its a "lay down mezaire" to apply the same rules to the other.
Perhaps next time the good people mentioned above sees or hears some divisive acts they do or say something about it before the situation deteriorates on a global scale.
It refects on all of you and you do not need to give GD any ammunition when negotiating for conditions while trying to maintain the platform that you are professionals.
My 2 cents
As an observer of both parties TC and CC. I think this punch up stuff has been a long time coming.(Not sure why) I have seen at many stations around the world where tech and cabin crew will not even look at each other yet alone speak on disembarkation. The tension was as thick a winter fog and for mine this goes back as far as 1995. In both professions there are many wankers (as there are in engineering) but the majority are good people focussed on doing their job.
The bigotry built up thru stereotypes by a few bad apples cannot be constructive for either party/ pay scheme/ profession.
TC and CC both occupy the same workspace no matter which side of the ballistic proof door you reside. QANTAS likes it when they can divide two parties. Some would say the CC are coming under the microscope or pressure more than they deserve but you can bet when the TC are targeted and the conditions for one group have been eroded its a "lay down mezaire" to apply the same rules to the other.
Perhaps next time the good people mentioned above sees or hears some divisive acts they do or say something about it before the situation deteriorates on a global scale.
It refects on all of you and you do not need to give GD any ammunition when negotiating for conditions while trying to maintain the platform that you are professionals.
My 2 cents
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My sentiments precisely, Capt Fathom!
And I'm sure that same "me know" generation will squeal like stuck pigs when the next (younger) generation see how they are also being unfairly held back from realizing their full potential
and grab it off the permFOs.
Youy are correct, permFO, I did have to put up with it, and so will you, because that's the system YOU accepted when you applied for the position.
Fortunately (for me), I have been at the crest of the wave as far as bidding (rosters and types) went, although I also had my fair share of the other end of it as well.
THAT is one reason why the seniority system works for EVERYONE, and GUARANTEES that everyone will get a go, eventually.
Yes, I'm absolutely certain that "the internal surveys conducted by the Company and the Association suggest that seniority is a big issue within all pilot ranks".
I have worked under both systems - there is no scheduling advantage for the company by not having a seniority system - it SHOULDN'T matter WHO crews what and when, as long as it is crewed, however is IS all about the company having ABSOLUTE control over EVERY aspect of your life. Because your roster and type also impact on your personal life, not just the time you are on duty.
And I'm sure that same "me know" generation will squeal like stuck pigs when the next (younger) generation see how they are also being unfairly held back from realizing their full potential
and grab it off the permFOs.Youy are correct, permFO, I did have to put up with it, and so will you, because that's the system YOU accepted when you applied for the position.
Fortunately (for me), I have been at the crest of the wave as far as bidding (rosters and types) went, although I also had my fair share of the other end of it as well.
THAT is one reason why the seniority system works for EVERYONE, and GUARANTEES that everyone will get a go, eventually.
Yes, I'm absolutely certain that "the internal surveys conducted by the Company and the Association suggest that seniority is a big issue within all pilot ranks".
I have worked under both systems - there is no scheduling advantage for the company by not having a seniority system - it SHOULDN'T matter WHO crews what and when, as long as it is crewed, however is IS all about the company having ABSOLUTE control over EVERY aspect of your life. Because your roster and type also impact on your personal life, not just the time you are on duty.
Nunc est bibendum
C'mon Ronnie, your points have been done to death a thousand times on crewroom. Not a lot of people believes them- not even those of us with a projected final seniorority in single digits and who were also on the crest of a waye!
The 'you know what you accepted so no changes' is misguided at best and naievely false at worse. Why do we bother negotiating to IMPROVE things at all then? Perhaps we should just shut up and take everything the way it is now. We don't though, do we. We negotiate and try and improve things. What frustrates you is that there are a number of crews out there (both senior and junior) who want to improve something that you disagree with see as your 'right'. You attack them as the 'me-now' (or 'me-know', I wasn't sure if it was a typo on your behalf or not) generation and whatever other labels you can throw in order to discredit them. Unfortunately, whilst you try and label those of us with the opposing opinion to you, your own label becomes very clear.
Wake up and smell the roses. No one is saying 'throw out seniorority' (a read of the survey results will show that) but a lot of people are saying that it can be more fair and equitable for ALL OF US.
The 'you know what you accepted so no changes' is misguided at best and naievely false at worse. Why do we bother negotiating to IMPROVE things at all then? Perhaps we should just shut up and take everything the way it is now. We don't though, do we. We negotiate and try and improve things. What frustrates you is that there are a number of crews out there (both senior and junior) who want to improve something that you disagree with see as your 'right'. You attack them as the 'me-now' (or 'me-know', I wasn't sure if it was a typo on your behalf or not) generation and whatever other labels you can throw in order to discredit them. Unfortunately, whilst you try and label those of us with the opposing opinion to you, your own label becomes very clear.
Wake up and smell the roses. No one is saying 'throw out seniorority' (a read of the survey results will show that) but a lot of people are saying that it can be more fair and equitable for ALL OF US.
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"Fortunately (for me), I have been at the crest of the wave as far as bidding (rosters and types) went, although I also had my fair share of the other end of it as well.
THAT is one reason why the seniority system works for EVERYONE, and GUARANTEES that everyone will get a go, eventually."
So for the blokes who are at the trough of the same wave its tough luck and put up with it. It doesn't follow that everyone is guaranteed a fair go. Depending on where you fit in the system which to a large degree is dictated by chance you may never get to the ranks of the super senior who can dictate their lifestyle. If seniority (for rostering,not promotion) is so fair why wasn't it part of the Australian Airlines agreement? All thats being suggested is a fair and even distribution of the available flying. The only airlines who still persist with it are the legacy airlines and a lot of what they did for the last 80 years is no longer working.
The main point once again though is it is this issue along with other big IR issues facing QF that is leading to a lot of tension and anger between the very groups that should be uniting. Trotting out the same old tired rhetoric and going the biff if people don't agree just allows managers to get away with what they currently are getting away with.
THAT is one reason why the seniority system works for EVERYONE, and GUARANTEES that everyone will get a go, eventually."
So for the blokes who are at the trough of the same wave its tough luck and put up with it. It doesn't follow that everyone is guaranteed a fair go. Depending on where you fit in the system which to a large degree is dictated by chance you may never get to the ranks of the super senior who can dictate their lifestyle. If seniority (for rostering,not promotion) is so fair why wasn't it part of the Australian Airlines agreement? All thats being suggested is a fair and even distribution of the available flying. The only airlines who still persist with it are the legacy airlines and a lot of what they did for the last 80 years is no longer working.
The main point once again though is it is this issue along with other big IR issues facing QF that is leading to a lot of tension and anger between the very groups that should be uniting. Trotting out the same old tired rhetoric and going the biff if people don't agree just allows managers to get away with what they currently are getting away with.
Mr.Buzzy,
I dunno, you'd have to ask a Cadet that question.
TL
So TL, how much does Daddy fork out for a "shiny new" cadetship these days?
TL
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OK, I understand what you were saying now permFO, but I think that would be an exception rather than the rule, or it certainly is in my experience anyway. It's a bloody big company - there are a few idiots on all sides unfortunately.
And how did this get onto the 'seniority' debate????
And how did this get onto the 'seniority' debate????
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Slightly off topic but a giggle non the less.
I heard through the grapevine that a certain off duty CSM on staff travel turned up at Broome last week to travel to Melbourne in a state best described as "tired and emotional".
Unfortunately, after pissing off ground staff and the crew she got to leave her nice business class seat and stay behind. Not too good at Broome at 1am with no accommodation.
I heard through the grapevine that a certain off duty CSM on staff travel turned up at Broome last week to travel to Melbourne in a state best described as "tired and emotional".
Unfortunately, after pissing off ground staff and the crew she got to leave her nice business class seat and stay behind. Not too good at Broome at 1am with no accommodation.
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Hahahaaa..... very funny. She was offed, just as she woulda done if some other pushy, rude pax came aboard "her" aircraft another day.
I hope she took the opportunity to grow up, herself, and re-join the real world. That woulda been a helluva a wake up call.
Maybe she got a bollocking when she got home, too.
PS that sort of pathetic behaviour is usually reserved for the raving, mincing, flouncing Oxford St queens.
I hope she took the opportunity to grow up, herself, and re-join the real world. That woulda been a helluva a wake up call.
Maybe she got a bollocking when she got home, too.
PS that sort of pathetic behaviour is usually reserved for the raving, mincing, flouncing Oxford St queens.
