Long Live the Pig
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Long Live the Pig
What is wrong with the RAAF when we are due to retire the best combat aircraft the world has ever seen in 2010?
The F-111 is clearly the most capable aircraft to operate in our region to date. With the right amount of money and effort in the right places surely we could upgrade the F-111 to have a formidable Air to Air capability.
I give several reasons for this:
1. Thrust to weight ratio. It is clear that an aircraft boasting a top speed of over twice the speed of sound therefore has a thrust to weight ratio well in excess of an aircraft with a top speed on Mach 1.8 (Hornet).
2. Turn performance. I have it on good authority that the variable geometry wings of the F-111 allow it to sweep forward the wings in a turning engagement, and therefore maintain the offensive. An option clearly not available to the Hornet.
3. Cockpit visibility. The second set of eyes in the F-111 is something lacking in the F-18. I think that we should re-engineer the F-111 cockpit to have a large perspex section at the back so the nav can look out the back while the pilot looks forward.
4. Weapon loadout. Because the F-111 is vastly superior to the Hornet in loadout, it could carry many more AMRAAMS than the Hornet. The bomb bay could be used to store the ASRAAM and because they would be internal this would serve as a nasty surprise for anyone silly enough to merge with the pig.
5. Radar. Surely the AESA radar would be relatively cheap and easy to install in the nose of the Pig because there is so much room. I am sure it would be a simple case of basic wiring changes for installation.
6. Pilot capability. I have been reliably informed that spots in the F-111 community are highly sought after and that Hornet pilots rarely admit that the Pig was their aircraft of choice and they see the F/A-18 as a bit of a consolation. Therefore surely we need to be keeping the elite cadre of aviators at both 1 and 6 Sqn intact to ensure we dont suffer an air defence capability gap.
I dont know if people have strong views on this but it would be hard for anyone to change my mind. And I think anyone else who has read Dr Kopps articles would agree.
The F-111 is clearly the most capable aircraft to operate in our region to date. With the right amount of money and effort in the right places surely we could upgrade the F-111 to have a formidable Air to Air capability.
I give several reasons for this:
1. Thrust to weight ratio. It is clear that an aircraft boasting a top speed of over twice the speed of sound therefore has a thrust to weight ratio well in excess of an aircraft with a top speed on Mach 1.8 (Hornet).
2. Turn performance. I have it on good authority that the variable geometry wings of the F-111 allow it to sweep forward the wings in a turning engagement, and therefore maintain the offensive. An option clearly not available to the Hornet.
3. Cockpit visibility. The second set of eyes in the F-111 is something lacking in the F-18. I think that we should re-engineer the F-111 cockpit to have a large perspex section at the back so the nav can look out the back while the pilot looks forward.
4. Weapon loadout. Because the F-111 is vastly superior to the Hornet in loadout, it could carry many more AMRAAMS than the Hornet. The bomb bay could be used to store the ASRAAM and because they would be internal this would serve as a nasty surprise for anyone silly enough to merge with the pig.
5. Radar. Surely the AESA radar would be relatively cheap and easy to install in the nose of the Pig because there is so much room. I am sure it would be a simple case of basic wiring changes for installation.
6. Pilot capability. I have been reliably informed that spots in the F-111 community are highly sought after and that Hornet pilots rarely admit that the Pig was their aircraft of choice and they see the F/A-18 as a bit of a consolation. Therefore surely we need to be keeping the elite cadre of aviators at both 1 and 6 Sqn intact to ensure we dont suffer an air defence capability gap.
I dont know if people have strong views on this but it would be hard for anyone to change my mind. And I think anyone else who has read Dr Kopps articles would agree.
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In reply to your post, firstly point 2. the B111 has a turn radius of a 747 jumbo, point 6. is absolute bull sh*t.
The B111 is an outstanding strike aircraft and should be kept in th ADF until at least 2020.
The B111 is an outstanding strike aircraft and should be kept in th ADF until at least 2020.
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As regards Point 3: the perspex section would be unnecessary, since the combination of Points 1, 2, 4, 5 and 6 would ensure that the F-111 is always on the offensive with nothing to fear from anything behind it. 
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So when has this "most capable aircraft" been in combat (for Australia) to prove the claims of this somewhat out of touch with reality new to pprune poster?
Last edited by Trash Hauler; 22nd May 2005 at 22:30.
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Trash
Obviously you are an experienced poster, I can tell this from your grammar.
I was unaware that the value of ones post has a direct relationship with how many times one has posted!
But seriously the RAAF needs to start reading some of what Dr Kopp has to say. What other jet out there can carry that many weapons, as far and as fast as the Pig?
Obviously you are an experienced poster, I can tell this from your grammar.
I was unaware that the value of ones post has a direct relationship with how many times one has posted!
But seriously the RAAF needs to start reading some of what Dr Kopp has to say. What other jet out there can carry that many weapons, as far and as fast as the Pig?
Plane,
I think what Trash was alluding to was that most of your claims about the pig are utter nonsense, thats' all, which reflects pretty poorly on your credibility. Since you are a newbe, perhaps you didn't realise there are some aces here who can spot the furphies a mile away, even when they are behind them!
Check six!
I think what Trash was alluding to was that most of your claims about the pig are utter nonsense, thats' all, which reflects pretty poorly on your credibility. Since you are a newbe, perhaps you didn't realise there are some aces here who can spot the furphies a mile away, even when they are behind them!
Check six!
An old Macchi 326 could turn pretty darn tight at 6G too. I suggest we get them back out there pronto, and glue a bit of carbon fibre onto the wings. They were also nice and warm with the canopy down - especially in Summer !!
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Jeez?
POM, you seem to actually be suggesting that the pig be used for air to air? Due to it's turn radius and its great cockpit visibility?
Bloggs is right. This has gotta be a wind up. Either that or POM hasn't actually ever seen an F111.
POM, you seem to actually be suggesting that the pig be used for air to air? Due to it's turn radius and its great cockpit visibility?
Bloggs is right. This has gotta be a wind up. Either that or POM hasn't actually ever seen an F111.
Plane of Motion, no truth in any of your post at all period, in addition, the F111 would be easy meat for the Sukhoi's going into service around this area.
I won't even start on the maintenance costs.
I won't even start on the maintenance costs.
Last edited by Sunfish; 22nd May 2005 at 23:30.
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The Pig is very very good at: carry lots of bombs, a long way, at very low altitudes, at high speed, in bad weather, at night. It is a very good BOMBER.
The pig is not very good at dog-fighting, it has poor cockpit visibilty, a large radar cross section, poor air-air radar capability. It is a very bad fighter.
The amount of money required to convert into a decent fighter would be more than than the cost of buying an F-22. Not cost effective.
As for your point 6 - I can reliably tell you that the complete opposite is true. The vast majority of RAAF pilots who what to fly 'Fast Jets' have the F/A-18 as their first choice. To suggest otherwise is unbelievably naive.
The pig is not very good at dog-fighting, it has poor cockpit visibilty, a large radar cross section, poor air-air radar capability. It is a very bad fighter.
The amount of money required to convert into a decent fighter would be more than than the cost of buying an F-22. Not cost effective.
As for your point 6 - I can reliably tell you that the complete opposite is true. The vast majority of RAAF pilots who what to fly 'Fast Jets' have the F/A-18 as their first choice. To suggest otherwise is unbelievably naive.
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I note that on the 15th of April, under the title of "Military experience for the Airlines" you gave your military experience as 1000hrs on FA18!! Now let's cross reference your obvious experience (must be at least a B Cat Hornet pilot) with some of the six assertions you have made in your original post 
Now, I only personally know about six FA18 drivers. A quick poll has suggested that none of them harbour any secret desires to fly the Pig. Of my one student that is flying Pigs, his motivation was, as revealed to me, his desire to fly JSF as he thought that Pig drivers would be the first in line.
Therefore, I put it to you Plane of Motion, you must be winding people up! Hey, but then again you got me to respond
I apologise in advance for any spelling or grammatical errors. I am but a humblr pilot, not an english teacher
Now, I only personally know about six FA18 drivers. A quick poll has suggested that none of them harbour any secret desires to fly the Pig. Of my one student that is flying Pigs, his motivation was, as revealed to me, his desire to fly JSF as he thought that Pig drivers would be the first in line.
Therefore, I put it to you Plane of Motion, you must be winding people up! Hey, but then again you got me to respond
I apologise in advance for any spelling or grammatical errors. I am but a humblr pilot, not an english teacher
Grandpa Aerotart
I think the powers that be are re working the costs to make the F111 look untenable...it's a common management theme.
I have zero experience flying the thing but can't help but feel that the payload range of the F111 vs the technology available to the most likely recipients of an F111 payload in our region mean the aircraft is just as capable now as it was when it was new.
Indonesia is getting missile technology from the Chinese and Malaysia has Sukhois, which would run rings around our F18s until they ran low on fuel and then shoot them out of the sky as they broke for the tanker...An F111 load of smart bombs on a dark, wet season night would soon turn all that into broken bits and the owners would never know what happened.
Australia doesn't need a new, unproven stealth technology mega toy...it's just what the FJ boys in RAAF upper management want.
The old pulling our weight in a coallition is not a good argument either.
I have zero experience flying the thing but can't help but feel that the payload range of the F111 vs the technology available to the most likely recipients of an F111 payload in our region mean the aircraft is just as capable now as it was when it was new.
Indonesia is getting missile technology from the Chinese and Malaysia has Sukhois, which would run rings around our F18s until they ran low on fuel and then shoot them out of the sky as they broke for the tanker...An F111 load of smart bombs on a dark, wet season night would soon turn all that into broken bits and the owners would never know what happened.
Australia doesn't need a new, unproven stealth technology mega toy...it's just what the FJ boys in RAAF upper management want.
The old pulling our weight in a coallition is not a good argument either.
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I'm still trying to get the hook out of my throat..............no wonder the grammer came out rwong!
I'm not an expert on combat aircraft however I have reasonable experience on ageing aircraft. The one thing money does not do is turn the tide on an ageing aircraft. It can slow the advance but not stop it. Not sure what the retirement plan for the F111 is but I read on the weekend that 2012 was the year for JSF. That would put the F111 at 40 years. That is one old aircraft to be maintaining so I can see why they are being retired.
I'm not an expert on combat aircraft however I have reasonable experience on ageing aircraft. The one thing money does not do is turn the tide on an ageing aircraft. It can slow the advance but not stop it. Not sure what the retirement plan for the F111 is but I read on the weekend that 2012 was the year for JSF. That would put the F111 at 40 years. That is one old aircraft to be maintaining so I can see why they are being retired.
Another windup??
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Cessnadude rocked.
As for Sukhois, I wouldn't worry about them. Have you seen the way the Malaysians fly their airliners?
Does the RMAF (or whatever) have to employ ex-pat pilots for their knuck-force in order to get insurance, like the airlines around those parts do???
RMAF a threat for a well-trained force??? HAHAHAHAHAAAA.......!!!!
Also, where's their AWACS?
Where's their tanker force? (actually I'm firing from the hip on both of them, I hope they don't have any...)
Do they have AMRAAMs or something else gucci like that?
And as for the gun, they can't shoot straight. Remember when we were selling Steyrs up that way???
From my own experience working with Malaysians, Singaporeans, etc, they tend to wimp out when the going gets hard or too hot.
I like the bit about the heat-seekers in the bay. HAHAAA!!! Maybe strap a gun in there too as this is lacking on the pig but planet motion was too busy to mention it.
I think we should retain the pig as it is big, loud and cool. We need as many types as possible or the RAAF will not be as attractive as it might be to potential pilots.
And why not??? It's tax-payers' money which would only go on some sh!tty state school or an old folks home.
As for Sukhois, I wouldn't worry about them. Have you seen the way the Malaysians fly their airliners?
Does the RMAF (or whatever) have to employ ex-pat pilots for their knuck-force in order to get insurance, like the airlines around those parts do???
RMAF a threat for a well-trained force??? HAHAHAHAHAAAA.......!!!!
Also, where's their AWACS?
Where's their tanker force? (actually I'm firing from the hip on both of them, I hope they don't have any...)
Do they have AMRAAMs or something else gucci like that?
And as for the gun, they can't shoot straight. Remember when we were selling Steyrs up that way???
From my own experience working with Malaysians, Singaporeans, etc, they tend to wimp out when the going gets hard or too hot.
I like the bit about the heat-seekers in the bay. HAHAAA!!! Maybe strap a gun in there too as this is lacking on the pig but planet motion was too busy to mention it.
I think we should retain the pig as it is big, loud and cool. We need as many types as possible or the RAAF will not be as attractive as it might be to potential pilots.
And why not??? It's tax-payers' money which would only go on some sh!tty state school or an old folks home.