Fly in China!
Thread Starter
Fly in China!
Okay Airlines, New LCC in China recruiting expats!
``China is short of captains and co-pilots. We offer young foreign pilots an opportunity to grow,'' Okay chairman and president Liu Jieyin said. He estimated China will be short of some 8,000 pilots in the next 10 years.
``A lot of trained pilots in the West can't find an opportunity to put some experience under their belt, while we in China are short of co-pilots, captains and even technicians,'' Liu said.
That makes pilots, who have finished their training, but need more practice to improve their skills, a good fit for China's aviation industry, Liu said, adding that he intends to recruit more foreign pilots in coming months.
But the strategy is also about cost for startup carriers such as Okay Airways, which - with just six leased Boeing 737 aircrafts - is entering a market controlled by giants led by Air China, China Southern Airlines and China Eastern Airlines.
Experienced foreign pilots, a common feature of Middle Eastern airlines like Dubai-based Emirates Airlines, are too expensive for China's smaller airline companies.
These young Okay pilots will take a pay cut. They will receive a salary of about 20,000 yuan (HK$18,860) a month - higher than the 11,000 yuan that Air China offers its co-pilots, but well below any European standard.
But Schmidt's enthusiasm is undimmed. ``I would fly for less, as long as I can fly,'' she said. ``It's been my goal since I have been 15.''
Full link.....
http://www.atca.org/singlenews.asp?item_ID=2550
``China is short of captains and co-pilots. We offer young foreign pilots an opportunity to grow,'' Okay chairman and president Liu Jieyin said. He estimated China will be short of some 8,000 pilots in the next 10 years.
``A lot of trained pilots in the West can't find an opportunity to put some experience under their belt, while we in China are short of co-pilots, captains and even technicians,'' Liu said.
That makes pilots, who have finished their training, but need more practice to improve their skills, a good fit for China's aviation industry, Liu said, adding that he intends to recruit more foreign pilots in coming months.
But the strategy is also about cost for startup carriers such as Okay Airways, which - with just six leased Boeing 737 aircrafts - is entering a market controlled by giants led by Air China, China Southern Airlines and China Eastern Airlines.
Experienced foreign pilots, a common feature of Middle Eastern airlines like Dubai-based Emirates Airlines, are too expensive for China's smaller airline companies.
These young Okay pilots will take a pay cut. They will receive a salary of about 20,000 yuan (HK$18,860) a month - higher than the 11,000 yuan that Air China offers its co-pilots, but well below any European standard.
But Schmidt's enthusiasm is undimmed. ``I would fly for less, as long as I can fly,'' she said. ``It's been my goal since I have been 15.''
Full link.....
http://www.atca.org/singlenews.asp?item_ID=2550
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Having been to China recently on business 20,000Yuan is not much money and you will have to really live like a local. 20,000 Yuan is roughly $2500USD a month so paying off your endorsement might take a little while.
Thread Starter
Guys and Gals in the US are living (i hope) on 1300 USD/month flying CRJ's.............
At least in China there is those you-beaut street vendors with their local 'Yiros' that one can live on, on the cheap!
At least in China there is those you-beaut street vendors with their local 'Yiros' that one can live on, on the cheap!
Grandpa Aerotart
Those young guys thinking about the possibilities in mainland China should consider why it is that CX/KA have to pay so much to attract peope to HK...they don't pay AUS$300-500k because they are nice people.
Any mainland China base you care to mention, Taiwan as well, would make HK look like a clean tropical paradise by comparison...and yet you naively believe you'll be happy on a small fraction of KA wages
I was in and out of HK today actually...it was a nice day by HK standards...vis 7000m in pollution, broken cloud at 3000' (MSA 3-4000+) odd....all it takes is for the wind to swing around towards the north, Guongdong etc (ie Mainland China) and the vis drops to 4000m in pollution. Not on any occasion that I have operated into Shanghai, Beijing etc (the Chinese J curve) has the vis been much above 5000m in smog...similarly with Taipei and Kiouhsiung.
I have seen some parts of China which are as beautifull as anywhere...way out west near Tibet...and we carried an interpreter from China Southern because no-one, including the ATCOs, speak english out there...not even a little. Unlike the eastern side where they speak (their version) of english only when speaking to you....out west not even the approach plates ae in English (I sat there making english pencil amendments to the chart guided by the China Southern F/O, who spoke excellent english but had never been to our desto because it was deemed a 'Captains only' port such was the terrain.
CRM is still a bit of a mystery in China. I have had first hand accounts of Chinese Captains slapping the hands of the F/O away from the controls and then turning the wrong way into an approach...this in a corporate jet subsidiary of a major Chinese domestic airline where they train the young Cadets prior to them operating on mainline flights...bit like SQs LR45 program but using Hawker 800XPs.
I firmly believe Asia in general and Mainland China in particular is going to have a huge appetite for expat jet pilots for the next 10-20 yrs...experienced Captains who can train local F/Os....it will be a long time yet before expat F/Os, particularly inexperienced ones, become a major feature of domestic Chinese airlines...if ever.
And to get the pilots they need will take a hell of a payrise over what they're currently offering...or be prepared to crash a lot of aeroplanes instead.
Any mainland China base you care to mention, Taiwan as well, would make HK look like a clean tropical paradise by comparison...and yet you naively believe you'll be happy on a small fraction of KA wages
I was in and out of HK today actually...it was a nice day by HK standards...vis 7000m in pollution, broken cloud at 3000' (MSA 3-4000+) odd....all it takes is for the wind to swing around towards the north, Guongdong etc (ie Mainland China) and the vis drops to 4000m in pollution. Not on any occasion that I have operated into Shanghai, Beijing etc (the Chinese J curve) has the vis been much above 5000m in smog...similarly with Taipei and Kiouhsiung.
I have seen some parts of China which are as beautifull as anywhere...way out west near Tibet...and we carried an interpreter from China Southern because no-one, including the ATCOs, speak english out there...not even a little. Unlike the eastern side where they speak (their version) of english only when speaking to you....out west not even the approach plates ae in English (I sat there making english pencil amendments to the chart guided by the China Southern F/O, who spoke excellent english but had never been to our desto because it was deemed a 'Captains only' port such was the terrain.
CRM is still a bit of a mystery in China. I have had first hand accounts of Chinese Captains slapping the hands of the F/O away from the controls and then turning the wrong way into an approach...this in a corporate jet subsidiary of a major Chinese domestic airline where they train the young Cadets prior to them operating on mainline flights...bit like SQs LR45 program but using Hawker 800XPs.
I firmly believe Asia in general and Mainland China in particular is going to have a huge appetite for expat jet pilots for the next 10-20 yrs...experienced Captains who can train local F/Os....it will be a long time yet before expat F/Os, particularly inexperienced ones, become a major feature of domestic Chinese airlines...if ever.
And to get the pilots they need will take a hell of a payrise over what they're currently offering...or be prepared to crash a lot of aeroplanes instead.
readbackcorrect
Funny how some always think the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Just remember that the big shiny jet syndrome will eventually wear off. When it does you will be stuck in a job that pays ****e, you have no protection under any labour laws because there aren’t any in china and believe it or not a very high cost of living. You will be treated like ****e and if you have a family, they will get sick very quickly living in a vermin infested dog box with nothing to do and no life. Do you think that this is very smart? I don’t. My advise is stick with the single engine IFR until something much better comes along because trust me, this aint it. You will regret it for the rest of your life.
Funny how some always think the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Just remember that the big shiny jet syndrome will eventually wear off. When it does you will be stuck in a job that pays ****e, you have no protection under any labour laws because there aren’t any in china and believe it or not a very high cost of living. You will be treated like ****e and if you have a family, they will get sick very quickly living in a vermin infested dog box with nothing to do and no life. Do you think that this is very smart? I don’t. My advise is stick with the single engine IFR until something much better comes along because trust me, this aint it. You will regret it for the rest of your life.
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The rest if my life, wonder how long that will be. Nah thanks for the balance to the topic. I guess as the 'shortage' takes a grip the remuneration can only improve. Guess it comes down to the contract u sign. Thanks for the heads up
Grandpa Aerotart
Employment contracts signed in countries with few if any labor laws are simply not worth signing. They are modified at the whim of the employer with no input by the employee and no recourse either....they are in fact not contracts by any western definition.
Of course the employee is expected to follow the contract verbatim...if not you will be sacked and you can kiss goodbye any and all money they think you owe them...like draconian bonds etc.
Do a search on the Far East Forum for all the SQ threads...while you're there have a read of the OK Airlines thread. Aussies and Kiwis in particular get a huge shock when the contract they signed is ignored and the realisation dawns that they 'aint in Kansas anymore Toto'. Have a cruise around the ME Forum and see how often their contracts are modified to suit management's immediate short term, and usually short sighted, goals.
You think you have been screwed in GA in OZ/NZ?...you haven't even been fondled inappropriately.
There are some good jobs in Asia and I certainly enjoy living here and flying here...but there are no shortcuts to getting a decent job in Asia. You really are limited to companies like CX, KA and RBA where you can get a job with no previous jet time and can reasonably expect an upgrade to command in a reasonable time frame and good training along the way. The Asian LCCs, with the possible exception of Jetstar Asia (for however long they last), are in for a rocky road ahead pilot recruitment wise and flight ops standards wise.
Expat pilots the world over have taken a big hit in the hip pocket in the last 2+ years in Oz $ terms...probably 30%.
While it is true to say the standards at, for instance JAL, CX,KA, SQ (and their respective Freight Ops) and RBA are about equal and how much we are paid doesn't effect those standards much it is equally true to say that start ups won't be able to attract experienced pilots from the ever reducing available pool without competing on pay and conditions.
It is fairly true to say that CX/KA in HKG are on a separate plain pay/conditions wise and the rest of us (JAL, RBA, SQ, EK) are roughly similar given our respective local costs of living. I would even go so far as to suggest that the CX 'B' scale and the KA pay is not that much greater than the others given the extremely high cost of running a family in HK...where they make a killing is the accommodation allowance...the golden handcuffs...paying off a Oz$1 million+ apartment in 10 yrs while dipping into your own pocket for roughly 10% of that can really kick along your retirement planning. Being single at any of the above companies, particularly CX/KA, will mean you can save a BIG DOLLARS...even while partaking of wine, women and song on several continents
CX,KA,RBA,EK,JAL,SQ are all recruiting along with the various Asian LCC startups and Malaysian is losing local pilots hand over fist to Etihad and is hiring ex GA (Garuda) pilots on short term contracts. Gulf Air is recruiting while losing pilots to the others as is Qatar.
Airlines in the EU are recruiting and very few UK/EU pilots come to Asia/ME because the currencies are so weak against the Euro/Pound...even KA has trouble with Brits not wanting to come to HK and they pay well.
QF, Jet*, VB, ANZ are all recruiting as are their respective subsidiaries - Sunnies, Eastern etc... NJS is recruiting.
Fewer young people are learning to fly in any of the countries that traditionally export pilots to the expat world...Britain, Australia and New Zealand...fewer still are getting ATPLs. The Military air arms of those countries are a small fraction of what they were 20-30 yrs ago and they too are supplying a much smaller number of pilots to the civvy pool, let alone the expat pool.
Balance all of the above with expanding numbers of local pilots in the various countries of Asia and the Middle East. There are vastly more than there were 15 yrs ago but still not close to enough and young Asians are no more attracted to aviation than their western cousins, less so in fact, and for all the same reasons PLUS GA does not exist in Asia or the Middle East...and barely exists in the EU. They are almost all Cadets or ex Mil...a somewhat limited pool.
Against the above we have huge aircraft orders with Airbus and Boeing from all over Asia (from West Asia (India) to Beijing in the East) and the ME...and an economy in China predicted to keep growing at double digit rates for 20+ yrs.
Why be in a rush to sign up to Chinese sweatshop conditions in a half baked mainland LCC startup?
Of course the employee is expected to follow the contract verbatim...if not you will be sacked and you can kiss goodbye any and all money they think you owe them...like draconian bonds etc.
Do a search on the Far East Forum for all the SQ threads...while you're there have a read of the OK Airlines thread. Aussies and Kiwis in particular get a huge shock when the contract they signed is ignored and the realisation dawns that they 'aint in Kansas anymore Toto'. Have a cruise around the ME Forum and see how often their contracts are modified to suit management's immediate short term, and usually short sighted, goals.
You think you have been screwed in GA in OZ/NZ?...you haven't even been fondled inappropriately.
There are some good jobs in Asia and I certainly enjoy living here and flying here...but there are no shortcuts to getting a decent job in Asia. You really are limited to companies like CX, KA and RBA where you can get a job with no previous jet time and can reasonably expect an upgrade to command in a reasonable time frame and good training along the way. The Asian LCCs, with the possible exception of Jetstar Asia (for however long they last), are in for a rocky road ahead pilot recruitment wise and flight ops standards wise.
Expat pilots the world over have taken a big hit in the hip pocket in the last 2+ years in Oz $ terms...probably 30%.
While it is true to say the standards at, for instance JAL, CX,KA, SQ (and their respective Freight Ops) and RBA are about equal and how much we are paid doesn't effect those standards much it is equally true to say that start ups won't be able to attract experienced pilots from the ever reducing available pool without competing on pay and conditions.
It is fairly true to say that CX/KA in HKG are on a separate plain pay/conditions wise and the rest of us (JAL, RBA, SQ, EK) are roughly similar given our respective local costs of living. I would even go so far as to suggest that the CX 'B' scale and the KA pay is not that much greater than the others given the extremely high cost of running a family in HK...where they make a killing is the accommodation allowance...the golden handcuffs...paying off a Oz$1 million+ apartment in 10 yrs while dipping into your own pocket for roughly 10% of that can really kick along your retirement planning. Being single at any of the above companies, particularly CX/KA, will mean you can save a BIG DOLLARS...even while partaking of wine, women and song on several continents
CX,KA,RBA,EK,JAL,SQ are all recruiting along with the various Asian LCC startups and Malaysian is losing local pilots hand over fist to Etihad and is hiring ex GA (Garuda) pilots on short term contracts. Gulf Air is recruiting while losing pilots to the others as is Qatar.
Airlines in the EU are recruiting and very few UK/EU pilots come to Asia/ME because the currencies are so weak against the Euro/Pound...even KA has trouble with Brits not wanting to come to HK and they pay well.
QF, Jet*, VB, ANZ are all recruiting as are their respective subsidiaries - Sunnies, Eastern etc... NJS is recruiting.
Fewer young people are learning to fly in any of the countries that traditionally export pilots to the expat world...Britain, Australia and New Zealand...fewer still are getting ATPLs. The Military air arms of those countries are a small fraction of what they were 20-30 yrs ago and they too are supplying a much smaller number of pilots to the civvy pool, let alone the expat pool.
Balance all of the above with expanding numbers of local pilots in the various countries of Asia and the Middle East. There are vastly more than there were 15 yrs ago but still not close to enough and young Asians are no more attracted to aviation than their western cousins, less so in fact, and for all the same reasons PLUS GA does not exist in Asia or the Middle East...and barely exists in the EU. They are almost all Cadets or ex Mil...a somewhat limited pool.
Against the above we have huge aircraft orders with Airbus and Boeing from all over Asia (from West Asia (India) to Beijing in the East) and the ME...and an economy in China predicted to keep growing at double digit rates for 20+ yrs.
Why be in a rush to sign up to Chinese sweatshop conditions in a half baked mainland LCC startup?
Grandpa Aerotart
Sorry if you find my last post not negative enough...just figured there might be one or two who might actually benefit from someone else's experience. Or would you rather I said "Yeah go for it...China's the place to be with 2500TT and a 737 type rating on an Oz ATPL...oh and of course 2 I/R renewals!!!
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 23rd Mar 2005 at 08:21.
So our intrepid Oz Expat has bought a job on 737's in China.
The wage is absymal and after a few years you have a thousand hours on 737's and still the borrowing costs of your endorsement. You will never be promoted in China. Just like Taiwan.
So where to now? Another F/O's job. Will you ever get promoted?
Or are you better off paying your penance in the Australian aviation scene?
The wage is absymal and after a few years you have a thousand hours on 737's and still the borrowing costs of your endorsement. You will never be promoted in China. Just like Taiwan.
So where to now? Another F/O's job. Will you ever get promoted?
Or are you better off paying your penance in the Australian aviation scene?
Oh dear. You know reading some of these posts is like having small children and telling them not to touch the saucepan with boiling water in it on the stove. You tell them the dangers and the fact that it will hurt them but they have to touch it anyway. The outcome is guaranteed. Temptation and curiosity was just too much.
Let me tell you how it works in mainland China. There are no labour laws to protect you against unscrupulous employers. Just look at the coal mining industry. Labour contracts are severely slanted in favour of the employer. You just can’t break your contract like you can in most other parts of the world. If you do it there you may find yourself in gaol or being refused a visa of any kind back in at a later date. This visa issue is a very big problem if you have been offered a job with CX or KA because guess what, Hong Kong is part of China. Remember too that most large international airlines also fly to china. If you are forbidden an entry visa you are buggered. Do you think your new employer is going to tolerate one of their pilots not being able to fly to one of their emerging major destinations? I think not.
Pointing this out though, I’m a realist. There are those out there that are driven by temptation, curiosity and greed. Frankly go ahead and take a job offer there. I really don’t care, but I can tell you the outcome is guaranteed. You will get burnt.
Let me tell you how it works in mainland China. There are no labour laws to protect you against unscrupulous employers. Just look at the coal mining industry. Labour contracts are severely slanted in favour of the employer. You just can’t break your contract like you can in most other parts of the world. If you do it there you may find yourself in gaol or being refused a visa of any kind back in at a later date. This visa issue is a very big problem if you have been offered a job with CX or KA because guess what, Hong Kong is part of China. Remember too that most large international airlines also fly to china. If you are forbidden an entry visa you are buggered. Do you think your new employer is going to tolerate one of their pilots not being able to fly to one of their emerging major destinations? I think not.
Pointing this out though, I’m a realist. There are those out there that are driven by temptation, curiosity and greed. Frankly go ahead and take a job offer there. I really don’t care, but I can tell you the outcome is guaranteed. You will get burnt.
Grandpa Aerotart
Yup 404...I'd almost think I was talking to my 16yr old daughter on those few days a mth when she is, shall we say, less than open to reason.
Lucky for both of us she is a remarkably delightfull, accepting and mature individual the other 25 days a mth.
eimar moron....caveat emptor
Lucky for both of us she is a remarkably delightfull, accepting and mature individual the other 25 days a mth.
eimar moron....caveat emptor