737 gear down at high speed -Good technique, or not?
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Or you could just plan ahead to avoid the situation, remembering that the 737 FCTM, unless its different than all the other Boeing FCTMs, recommends not to extend beyond 200 for passenger comfort.....and if you get stuck, just say "unable" and maybe thereby remind ATC that modern jets are not computer games and need a little notice to slow down and get down.
Never flown the 73 but have a fair bit of time on the Classic and the 744 and some on the 777.
In my humble opinion if you are above profile and a bit quick..ATC or whatever reason, throwing the gear out early is a lot less disconcerting to the paying punters than using the boards.
As to PA's explaining all this ...forget it...generally the sound of the gear extending relaxes the pax not irritates them.
In my humble opinion if you are above profile and a bit quick..ATC or whatever reason, throwing the gear out early is a lot less disconcerting to the paying punters than using the boards.
As to PA's explaining all this ...forget it...generally the sound of the gear extending relaxes the pax not irritates them.
Last edited by VR-HFX; 19th Mar 2005 at 15:01.
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The speedbrake is next to useless on the 737 variants and unlike clasic Jumbo pilots who have recommended max speeds for passenger comfort, we do not. Making a P.A. prior to using the s/b went out years ago in QF. If that were the case we would be making one every second sector or 25 times per month!
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Gear down at 250K
The controllers would just LOVE you if you ooze along getting back to 200K and flap 10 with the following blokes rapidly shortening the gap.
I agree; the pax need to have a little fear now and again to knock their complacency around and realize they aren't quite as superiorly experienced as they think they are.
I aimed not to use the gear, but if I needed it I used it.
I agree; the pax need to have a little fear now and again to knock their complacency around and realize they aren't quite as superiorly experienced as they think they are.
I aimed not to use the gear, but if I needed it I used it.
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"I agree; the pax need to have a little fear now and again to knock their complacency around and realize they aren't quite as superiorly experienced as they think they are."
I find it hard to believe that such a cavalier, cowboy attitude as the above is really widespread in Australian professional aviation.
I find it hard to believe that such a cavalier, cowboy attitude as the above is really widespread in Australian professional aviation.
Blue Eagle
I assume you mean the good old standby..."we are about to ruin your day by lowering the undercarriage; this could hurt, so for your safety and comfort may I suggest you hold your drinks in one hand and your nuts in the other".
I assume you mean the good old standby..."we are about to ruin your day by lowering the undercarriage; this could hurt, so for your safety and comfort may I suggest you hold your drinks in one hand and your nuts in the other".
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I guess there's nothing wrong with the technique as long as you are aware what you are doing, the guys on 747 do that all the time if needed and 737 if you make a decelerate approach and something goes not according as you planned the landing gear might be your only choice especially when you're on series 300/500.
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Omark,
A bit of background info may make it easier to understand the comments.
Maybe a year ago a qf 737 crew got in strife after doing a go around (I think cause was the runway at Brisbane was still occupied) and a self serving politician made a huge song and dance about it through the media. For a while everytime a rivet popped it was front page stuff.
I think the general consensus was to leave the pilot stuff to us and no, we aren't going to have our every decision subject to media and pilotical scrutiny.
A lot of airline people obviously feel that the pax in australia have gotten very comfortable with air travel and have forgotten about the potential risks associated with travelling through a (way)sub zero enviroment at 1000 km/hr in a metal tube.
A bit of background info may make it easier to understand the comments.
Maybe a year ago a qf 737 crew got in strife after doing a go around (I think cause was the runway at Brisbane was still occupied) and a self serving politician made a huge song and dance about it through the media. For a while everytime a rivet popped it was front page stuff.
I think the general consensus was to leave the pilot stuff to us and no, we aren't going to have our every decision subject to media and pilotical scrutiny.
A lot of airline people obviously feel that the pax in australia have gotten very comfortable with air travel and have forgotten about the potential risks associated with travelling through a (way)sub zero enviroment at 1000 km/hr in a metal tube.
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Noise!What noise?
Gee Itchy, I would have thought you had more going for you mate?
And blue "pussy", it is still all BOLLACKS, try putting out the boards at 250 plus Kt's? want some noise and some real vibration???, since when do we have to explain to the Pax for complying with either the companies SOP, and the A/C flt Manual.
Ahh, Ahhemmm, Ladies and Gentleman, Boys and Girls, Ahhemm, we are Ahhemm ,a little bit high on the Approach, due to ATC requirements today, and we are going to comply with the flight manual, and ahhemm, ahh, lower the gear to slow us down, Ahhemm, arrrrr, we are presently doing, Arrr 250 kts, and this will make some noise, please dont be concerned by our compliance with the A/C's Flt Manual, Ahhhr on the other hand we are in a tube of Aliminium with a lot of inertia, and our wings and belly still have some jet fuel, we promise to do our best to slow up before landing, and we will try to give you a safe ahhr ahhemm landing, but in your interests and the interests of safety, just be advised that these things come apart pretty spectacturley,the fuel will spread fire and heat like you have never imagined, and the Ali will ahhrr ,burn and will melt , and the deceleration forces will be enough to rench your arms from Ahhhem arr, your sockets, you should follow the directions of your crew ( if they survive).
Ahhrr, Ahhhemmm, Aggggrrrr, don't mean to scare you good folks, but in the interests of safety you should be aware of what can happen,Ahhhhemmm, Aggggrrrr, we will do our best to see that this dosen't happen, and on behalf of XXXXXX Airlines we would like to thank you for flying with us, and Ahhhhrrrrr, we would like to see you again in the future.
Stop stroking your selves,
And blue "pussy", it is still all BOLLACKS, try putting out the boards at 250 plus Kt's? want some noise and some real vibration???, since when do we have to explain to the Pax for complying with either the companies SOP, and the A/C flt Manual.
Ahh, Ahhemmm, Ladies and Gentleman, Boys and Girls, Ahhemm, we are Ahhemm ,a little bit high on the Approach, due to ATC requirements today, and we are going to comply with the flight manual, and ahhemm, ahh, lower the gear to slow us down, Ahhemm, arrrrr, we are presently doing, Arrr 250 kts, and this will make some noise, please dont be concerned by our compliance with the A/C's Flt Manual, Ahhhr on the other hand we are in a tube of Aliminium with a lot of inertia, and our wings and belly still have some jet fuel, we promise to do our best to slow up before landing, and we will try to give you a safe ahhr ahhemm landing, but in your interests and the interests of safety, just be advised that these things come apart pretty spectacturley,the fuel will spread fire and heat like you have never imagined, and the Ali will ahhrr ,burn and will melt , and the deceleration forces will be enough to rench your arms from Ahhhem arr, your sockets, you should follow the directions of your crew ( if they survive).
Ahhrr, Ahhhemmm, Aggggrrrr, don't mean to scare you good folks, but in the interests of safety you should be aware of what can happen,Ahhhhemmm, Aggggrrrr, we will do our best to see that this dosen't happen, and on behalf of XXXXXX Airlines we would like to thank you for flying with us, and Ahhhhrrrrr, we would like to see you again in the future.
Stop stroking your selves,
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No Crack keeping the punters happy and informed is not called 'bollacks' or anything like it, it's called professionalism, airmanship, stuff like that and is/was SOP in most respected carriers, maybe your not familiar with it?
Sonny Hammonds remarks do make a lot of sense though.
Sonny Hammonds remarks do make a lot of sense though.
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ATC has cut you in short .... you have the speedbrake up, retractable landing lights extended and gear down. Short of throwing out an anchor this beast will not go down any faster or slow down any quicker. All the while you are constantly doing your 3 times tables (maybe even adding a bit or subtracting also), doing the landing checklist, most probably have a frequency change and you want to make a PA ?!?!? Do you walk to work with a broom up your @rse so you can sweep the sidewalk at the same time? Didn't think so. Guess when I become more comfortable I'll have more time to do the housekeeping and make a PA!
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4 Pages of posts after Hudson posts his bar room story swapping waffle to kick the subject off.
You people out there need to get a life. The original post didn't warrant a reply from anyone who knows how to fly a 737.
You do what you have to do if it is within the "envelope" of the aircraft involved and the situation requires it. Its called commonsense. Sometimes refered to as Airmanship.
Not seen much amongst certain QF employees I can think of. Hence the fact that this trivia can take up so much bar time when they could be concentrating on serious matters like drinking.
You people out there need to get a life. The original post didn't warrant a reply from anyone who knows how to fly a 737.
You do what you have to do if it is within the "envelope" of the aircraft involved and the situation requires it. Its called commonsense. Sometimes refered to as Airmanship.
Not seen much amongst certain QF employees I can think of. Hence the fact that this trivia can take up so much bar time when they could be concentrating on serious matters like drinking.
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So why did you post on this thread then... 
As for Blue Eagle saying that keeping the punters happy is airmanship... complete bollocks. And it certainly isn't professionalism to be making PAs during the later stages of the approach. You have a cabin crew for that, failing to utilise them properly shows a complete disregard for CRM. They should be prepped and ready to explain any of those noises to the few pax nervous enough to be bothered by them. That is THEIR job.
And please quote the SOP in any of your manuals that says that you should be talking to the pax when you are engaged in the busiest phase of the flight.
It isn't airmanship, it isn't professionalism, and it isn't an SOP. What it is, is an inability to organise your crew properly so that you can keep you mind on YOUR job, which is far more important.
Leave the PR to your airline/customer interface department.
Anyone who is giving PAs during an approach needs a stern talking to.
As for Blue Eagle saying that keeping the punters happy is airmanship... complete bollocks. And it certainly isn't professionalism to be making PAs during the later stages of the approach. You have a cabin crew for that, failing to utilise them properly shows a complete disregard for CRM. They should be prepped and ready to explain any of those noises to the few pax nervous enough to be bothered by them. That is THEIR job.
And please quote the SOP in any of your manuals that says that you should be talking to the pax when you are engaged in the busiest phase of the flight.
It isn't airmanship, it isn't professionalism, and it isn't an SOP. What it is, is an inability to organise your crew properly so that you can keep you mind on YOUR job, which is far more important.
Leave the PR to your airline/customer interface department.
Anyone who is giving PAs during an approach needs a stern talking to.
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Blue Eagle.
PA's are fine so long as they are made at an appropriate time and for an appropriate reason.
Early extension of gear and/or use of speedbrake does not cut it in my book (unless depressurised of course!).
In the case of a go-around, after the go-around manoeuvre is completed, when at a safe altitude and configured appropriately and stable then yes, by all means I believe a PA is mandatory.
In the case of being in close and tight, early use of gear and/or speedbrake simply does not mandate the use of a PA to pax.
If I saw a pilot making a PA at a critical stage of the flight for no appropriate reason then I would mark them down severly on a check.
Depending on the outcome and how things progress they may deserve to be failed if situational awareness is compromised.
Situational awareness at such a critical juncture is paramount.
Having one pilot making a PA just to justify their actions that preclude abnormal ops is reckless in my book.
I fully agree with VR-HFX, itchybum and Macrohard on this one.
Silence is golden as far as pax are concerned.
Unless an abnormal manoeuvre is performed then the pax are fine.Besides Blue Eagle, 250 kts with gear down isnt as bad as you think.
A bit noisy, yes.
I'd rather be flying the aircraft at a critical point than blabbering unnecessarily to the punters who in all honesty probably couldnt hear you if the noise was as bad as you say Blue Eagle!!!!
If you dont like what you're given by ATC then request additional track miles.Simple.
As long as the aircraft is stable by 500 ft then its all sweet.
And where do most incidents occur Blue Eagle?
I'm all for professionalism but only when the time is right.
PA's are fine so long as they are made at an appropriate time and for an appropriate reason.
Early extension of gear and/or use of speedbrake does not cut it in my book (unless depressurised of course!).
In the case of a go-around, after the go-around manoeuvre is completed, when at a safe altitude and configured appropriately and stable then yes, by all means I believe a PA is mandatory.
In the case of being in close and tight, early use of gear and/or speedbrake simply does not mandate the use of a PA to pax.
If I saw a pilot making a PA at a critical stage of the flight for no appropriate reason then I would mark them down severly on a check.
Depending on the outcome and how things progress they may deserve to be failed if situational awareness is compromised.
Situational awareness at such a critical juncture is paramount.
Having one pilot making a PA just to justify their actions that preclude abnormal ops is reckless in my book.
I fully agree with VR-HFX, itchybum and Macrohard on this one.
Silence is golden as far as pax are concerned.
Unless an abnormal manoeuvre is performed then the pax are fine.Besides Blue Eagle, 250 kts with gear down isnt as bad as you think.
A bit noisy, yes.
I'd rather be flying the aircraft at a critical point than blabbering unnecessarily to the punters who in all honesty probably couldnt hear you if the noise was as bad as you say Blue Eagle!!!!
If you dont like what you're given by ATC then request additional track miles.Simple.
As long as the aircraft is stable by 500 ft then its all sweet.
And where do most incidents occur Blue Eagle?
I'm all for professionalism but only when the time is right.
Last edited by Beer Can Dreaming; 24th Mar 2005 at 04:53.
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Well I would certainly agree that a PA when close in and busy is a bad thing.
When this thread started I visualised being some way out and recognising the high and fast situation before the final stages of the approach, not close in and dirty due to someone screwing up the approach, be it ATC or pilot.
Probably been better if I had added the caveat to my original post about a PA, "as long as it is safe to do so"
I don't agree with much of what MOR has to say about CRM and crew management but we all remember what we have been taught and as a result may quite possibly have differing views.
When this thread started I visualised being some way out and recognising the high and fast situation before the final stages of the approach, not close in and dirty due to someone screwing up the approach, be it ATC or pilot.
Probably been better if I had added the caveat to my original post about a PA, "as long as it is safe to do so"
I don't agree with much of what MOR has to say about CRM and crew management but we all remember what we have been taught and as a result may quite possibly have differing views.