lame moral at qantas
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Ahhh, Mr Qantas it's good to see you back, I've missed you!
The tendancy with redundancies is the smarter fellas tend to move on? Which means Mr Qantas might be around for a while yet!
Lamies, regardless of your spelling and grammer, you are working in a highly skilled and specialised area and deserve the respect associated.
3% per year is a garbage out-come when inflation is eating at your money at around the same rate. It shows no respect when compared to the corporate excess that is being shown from most companies these days.
The tendancy with redundancies is the smarter fellas tend to move on? Which means Mr Qantas might be around for a while yet!
Lamies, regardless of your spelling and grammer, you are working in a highly skilled and specialised area and deserve the respect associated.
3% per year is a garbage out-come when inflation is eating at your money at around the same rate. It shows no respect when compared to the corporate excess that is being shown from most companies these days.
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point-o-five you're right, you do sound like a prick.
I have no problems with any of my job functions. It is actually the source of my job satisfaction to be able to effectively carry out so many different tasks and provide a serviceable aircraft on time.
What I do object to is to be offered less than I am worth and receive some smartass reply from someone who sits on his arse for hours on end in an airconditioned environment pushing buttons and twiddling knobs. You would have no idea what it feels like to to spend a 12 hr night shift covered in ****/grease/fuel/hyd fluid/sweat for the last 20 years.
I fully expect a tirade of abuse from aggreived pilots saying how stressful your job is and how many lives are at stake in your highly important jobs.
Just remember, I'll work on many more planes in 12 hrs than you will fly and any one of my stuffups can have just as devastating consequences.
wrong grease on a brake???What possible harm can that do???every other grease point on the gear is the same!!!
Did I put the o-rings on that oil system chip detector that I replaced at 0430 last night??? I think I did???
Were those screws that I used to replace that cockpit window the correct length and torqued properly?????
Keep your seatbelt fastened. You may be flying into turbulence.
I have no problems with any of my job functions. It is actually the source of my job satisfaction to be able to effectively carry out so many different tasks and provide a serviceable aircraft on time.
What I do object to is to be offered less than I am worth and receive some smartass reply from someone who sits on his arse for hours on end in an airconditioned environment pushing buttons and twiddling knobs. You would have no idea what it feels like to to spend a 12 hr night shift covered in ****/grease/fuel/hyd fluid/sweat for the last 20 years.
I fully expect a tirade of abuse from aggreived pilots saying how stressful your job is and how many lives are at stake in your highly important jobs.
Just remember, I'll work on many more planes in 12 hrs than you will fly and any one of my stuffups can have just as devastating consequences.
wrong grease on a brake???What possible harm can that do???every other grease point on the gear is the same!!!
Did I put the o-rings on that oil system chip detector that I replaced at 0430 last night??? I think I did???
Were those screws that I used to replace that cockpit window the correct length and torqued properly?????
Keep your seatbelt fastened. You may be flying into turbulence.
Last edited by numbskull; 17th Mar 2005 at 10:31.
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Whoa, steady numbskull,
I'm a pilot and I'm on your side. As are virtually all my colleagues.
Let's not play into the hands of those who have an interest in dividing the various workgroups, pitting them against one another. They benefit from that.
Whilst it might be a dream to have one association representing ALL personnel working for airlines in Australia, we can at least try and support one another wherever possible, wherever legal.....
I'm a pilot and I'm on your side. As are virtually all my colleagues.
Let's not play into the hands of those who have an interest in dividing the various workgroups, pitting them against one another. They benefit from that.
Whilst it might be a dream to have one association representing ALL personnel working for airlines in Australia, we can at least try and support one another wherever possible, wherever legal.....
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It now appears that the OFFICIAL O/T bans have stalled as well. QF management have undertaken to have another look at the ALAEA's log of claims, and the ALAEA has undertaken to have another look at QANTAS' EBA wishlist.
The O/T bans ( if they ever come in) will not include customer aircraft, so any International Line station will, by default, not be taking part in the bans. Those Line stations with merged lunchrooms will also not be taking part in the bans for the same reason.
And so it continues. SYD, MEL and BNE domestic Line stations will continue to make themselves unavailable for extra duties, with support now from Heavy Maintenance and hopefully Base Maintenance.
What can we possibly hope to achieve with less than full bans from all departments. It's great having a union that takes QF's contract obligations into account before launching industrial action.
The O/T bans ( if they ever come in) will not include customer aircraft, so any International Line station will, by default, not be taking part in the bans. Those Line stations with merged lunchrooms will also not be taking part in the bans for the same reason.
And so it continues. SYD, MEL and BNE domestic Line stations will continue to make themselves unavailable for extra duties, with support now from Heavy Maintenance and hopefully Base Maintenance.
What can we possibly hope to achieve with less than full bans from all departments. It's great having a union that takes QF's contract obligations into account before launching industrial action.
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the only way to bring this issue to head is
1. ban all o/t in support of customer aircraft --STARTING WITH THE -RAAF BBJ-
2.TELL THE SCABS FROM BASE AND INTERNATIONAL AT SYDNEY TO COME ON BOARD -OR THEY CAN F..KOFF- BECAUSE WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND.
3. THE SCABS AT SYD INTERNATIONAL NOT TO DO DOMESTIC RELEIF WORK.
domestic might be getting screwed with the preflt issue at the moment BUT YOUR TIME WILL COME
IF YOU DON'T SUPPORT DOMESTIC LAME'S- WE WILL REMEMBER WHEN YOU GUY'S ARE BEING SCREWED BY THE COMPANY- STARTING WITH THE PROPOSED MERGER OF BASE AND INTERNATIONAL AT SYD- WHEN YOU BLOKE'S WANT SUPPORT - YOU CAN STICK THAT UP YOUR ASS.
1. ban all o/t in support of customer aircraft --STARTING WITH THE -RAAF BBJ-
2.TELL THE SCABS FROM BASE AND INTERNATIONAL AT SYDNEY TO COME ON BOARD -OR THEY CAN F..KOFF- BECAUSE WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND.
3. THE SCABS AT SYD INTERNATIONAL NOT TO DO DOMESTIC RELEIF WORK.
domestic might be getting screwed with the preflt issue at the moment BUT YOUR TIME WILL COME
IF YOU DON'T SUPPORT DOMESTIC LAME'S- WE WILL REMEMBER WHEN YOU GUY'S ARE BEING SCREWED BY THE COMPANY- STARTING WITH THE PROPOSED MERGER OF BASE AND INTERNATIONAL AT SYD- WHEN YOU BLOKE'S WANT SUPPORT - YOU CAN STICK THAT UP YOUR ASS.
Last edited by the lost one; 19th Mar 2005 at 09:27.
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during my final yr at QF, morale was already what i thought to be an all time low! in that environment, work output was at approx 25% of what a normal happy contented employee might be!
i left after 11 yrs, because having NO pay rise in over 6 yrs is not much fun!, and the final yr, being told, under the new pay scale, you will need to take a pay cut by starting again at the bottom! ( because of my dual trades, it put me into a pay scale that they didnt consider during the changeover,) so the only solution, get back on the bottom, after 11 yrs, and work another 10 yrs to get back to where you started!
i feel i am in the same boat, we all love our jobs, there is tremendous satisfation in seeing your work come to fruition, after countless hrs covered in grease and god knows what junk that accumulates in dog boxes and the lower WL lines in cargo. not only the satisfation in creating parts from bare materials and woring them into servicable aircraft components! a feeling many other people will never have!
but sadly, its the Company, not the job that forced me out!
How do you flight crew people feel knowing the company is forcing out many who actually take great pride in their work and do Quality work, so that they can bring in cheap labour, lower skill levels, and lower pride in their work.
as for the grammer police! Bill gates, is dyslexic! never judge anyones skill in their chosen field by they way they punch the keys on a computer keyboard!
Mr Qantas highlights the companies problems perfectly, the managment/ suporvisories view their "lower" staff with contempt, and have no real connection with what is actually going on with their staff, let alone the work environment they have to put up with!
as long as this Us and them mentality between the doers and the desk pushers exists, and there is an obvious massive divide, as demonstrated by Mr QF!, then the company will continue to suffer, along with morale, and safety, and eventually job security! for ALL staff.
for a company to suceed, ALL levels of staff have to unite as ONE! and help each other to achieve a common goal!
i left after 11 yrs, because having NO pay rise in over 6 yrs is not much fun!, and the final yr, being told, under the new pay scale, you will need to take a pay cut by starting again at the bottom! ( because of my dual trades, it put me into a pay scale that they didnt consider during the changeover,) so the only solution, get back on the bottom, after 11 yrs, and work another 10 yrs to get back to where you started!
i feel i am in the same boat, we all love our jobs, there is tremendous satisfation in seeing your work come to fruition, after countless hrs covered in grease and god knows what junk that accumulates in dog boxes and the lower WL lines in cargo. not only the satisfation in creating parts from bare materials and woring them into servicable aircraft components! a feeling many other people will never have!
but sadly, its the Company, not the job that forced me out!
How do you flight crew people feel knowing the company is forcing out many who actually take great pride in their work and do Quality work, so that they can bring in cheap labour, lower skill levels, and lower pride in their work.
as for the grammer police! Bill gates, is dyslexic! never judge anyones skill in their chosen field by they way they punch the keys on a computer keyboard!
Mr Qantas highlights the companies problems perfectly, the managment/ suporvisories view their "lower" staff with contempt, and have no real connection with what is actually going on with their staff, let alone the work environment they have to put up with!
as long as this Us and them mentality between the doers and the desk pushers exists, and there is an obvious massive divide, as demonstrated by Mr QF!, then the company will continue to suffer, along with morale, and safety, and eventually job security! for ALL staff.
for a company to suceed, ALL levels of staff have to unite as ONE! and help each other to achieve a common goal!
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numbskull
I hope that I have one
No offence intended.
However I do question this:
How do you define this? I'm not a pilot and I respect what you do. But his doesn't change the fact that complaining on an anonymous forum doesn't fix your problem.
A professional maintainer wouldn't make such veiled threats against their customers. Dude, power to you for being good at your job. If you hate Qantas, get work elsewhere! I work in maintenance, there isn't a huge amount of money in it but it is good honest work. If I wanted to be rich, I'd be a merchant banker. The day I hate my employment; I'll re-skill into a more money rich enviornment (and pay for it myself)... seriously, get over yourself and accept that the world isn't there to look after you!
And please, I'd love to hear from LAMEs that have worked for QANTAS for five years and are only on 50k! Bring it on....
you do sound like a prick
No offence intended.However I do question this:
less than I am worth
A professional maintainer wouldn't make such veiled threats against their customers. Dude, power to you for being good at your job. If you hate Qantas, get work elsewhere! I work in maintenance, there isn't a huge amount of money in it but it is good honest work. If I wanted to be rich, I'd be a merchant banker. The day I hate my employment; I'll re-skill into a more money rich enviornment (and pay for it myself)... seriously, get over yourself and accept that the world isn't there to look after you!
And please, I'd love to hear from LAMEs that have worked for QANTAS for five years and are only on 50k! Bring it on....
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Sorry to disappoint Numbskull .........no tirade of abuse from me either! More like respect & heartfelt sympathy for you LAME guys & gals (and your families) as I hear of what sounds like more of Dicko's "Divide & Conquer" tactic being applied to another proud & skilled professional workforce.
Agreed........and so all maintenance bases should unite! Just as the pilot bodies need to. As for all the aviation related disciplines under the one banner..........sounds great in theory...........could the TWU be the answer?????
Anyways Numbskull , my rant's over, I'm off to sit on my ass!
My apologeees to the Grammer Polease for my indeskreshins......."I no knot wot I do, I are just a dum pielot!"
ALL levels of staff have to unite as ONE! and help each other to achieve a common goal!
Anyways Numbskull , my rant's over, I'm off to sit on my ass!
My apologeees to the Grammer Polease for my indeskreshins......."I no knot wot I do, I are just a dum pielot!"
"Less than I am worth"
A very good point. I will not refer to "maslows hierarchy of needs". which is baseless, but instead suggest that what is needed is "recognition".
You can pay people next to nothing if you are prepared to recognise the contribution they make to the success of your organisation, and they will still be satisfied provided they can keep the wolf from the door at home.
Money is not a positive reinforcement for most people. You don't perform any better if you get more, but you may perform worse if you get less.
"Recognition" - being treated as an important member of the human race, is one of the greatest drivers of performance.
It would appear that there is a world wide attack on the recognition of pilots LAME's and Cabin crew. QF would appear no different.
The message is simple. Pilots are glorified bus drivers, LAME's are jacked up car mechanics and CC are well....
The sad part about this is that a lot of passengers are going to lose their lives before people realise that if you apply russian, or third world, airline standards (apologies to Aeroflot) of behaviour to cabin crew, Pilots and LAME's, then you are going to get third world safety records.
To put it another way the importance of Pilots, Cabin crew and LAME's will get "recognition" one day, but it will not be pleasant . QF, Ryanaire, etc will only know they have cut too much when there is the proverbial smoking hole in the ground, but they don't seem to care about this.
Furthermore, it takes about ten years of constant cost cutting in a large organisation, in my opinion, before the damage even appears and a further ten years for it to be totally visible. It will then take another twenty years to put right.
A very good point. I will not refer to "maslows hierarchy of needs". which is baseless, but instead suggest that what is needed is "recognition".
You can pay people next to nothing if you are prepared to recognise the contribution they make to the success of your organisation, and they will still be satisfied provided they can keep the wolf from the door at home.
Money is not a positive reinforcement for most people. You don't perform any better if you get more, but you may perform worse if you get less.
"Recognition" - being treated as an important member of the human race, is one of the greatest drivers of performance.
It would appear that there is a world wide attack on the recognition of pilots LAME's and Cabin crew. QF would appear no different.
The message is simple. Pilots are glorified bus drivers, LAME's are jacked up car mechanics and CC are well....
The sad part about this is that a lot of passengers are going to lose their lives before people realise that if you apply russian, or third world, airline standards (apologies to Aeroflot) of behaviour to cabin crew, Pilots and LAME's, then you are going to get third world safety records.
To put it another way the importance of Pilots, Cabin crew and LAME's will get "recognition" one day, but it will not be pleasant . QF, Ryanaire, etc will only know they have cut too much when there is the proverbial smoking hole in the ground, but they don't seem to care about this.
Furthermore, it takes about ten years of constant cost cutting in a large organisation, in my opinion, before the damage even appears and a further ten years for it to be totally visible. It will then take another twenty years to put right.
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Sunfish, couldn't agree with you more! I don't want the Victoria Cross but a little recognition, even acknowledgement would be nice some times. Even from immediate management/supervisors as well. As I see it at the moment, the only recognition and "rewards" are being dubiously passed out to LAMEs for time spent off the job,NOT fixing aeroplanes. This is the perception of many guys on the hangar floor and it makes you think "there's no use in flogging a dead horse, my efforts are slipping through to the keeper!"
I think most people are working for the rest of their crew/team members rather than the company at the moment. That seems to be the only arena where your contribution is valued and appreciated.
I think most people are working for the rest of their crew/team members rather than the company at the moment. That seems to be the only arena where your contribution is valued and appreciated.
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Sunfish, I agree with your post completely!!!
I think Qantas is deliberately trying to antagonise its staff into leaving so that it can employ new staff at cheaper rates. It is happening to pilots, LAMES and cabin crew. There are no shortage of people willing to take these jobs and will even accept less than the going rate to secure a foot in the door.
Why else would they treat their own staff so poorly!!
I just hope the people they recruit for these tasks are up to the job. Generally speaking, if you pay a lower remuneration you are going to get a lower quality candidate.
Point o five I was not making any veiled threats in my previous post. No LAME would ever consider such a thing!! I was merely trying to emphasise the importance of the job we do and that many mundane tasks done incorrectly can have devastating consequences.
My manager has stated that there we have too many LAMES in our area and future recruiting will be predominately AME's. Career advancement in the form of licence training will be very hard to come by even if we do get 777's and 380's(most of the work will probably be carried out in Singapore)
We already do more work with less ground time. I'm not looking forward to certifying A/C with less experienced people under me as well.
Qantas has grown to be a very large airline and they are cutting costs in so many areas now that it is simply a matter of time before a more serious accident occurs. I'm sure though that G.D. and the board of directors will have the backside covered.
The ATSB will do their crash investigation and find some poor shmuck LAME who forgot to do something at 0400 after already being at work for 10 hrs. Either that or blame pilot error.
Well, as G.D. says "if you don't like it leave!!" I will,he's just going to have to come up wth a redundancy package first.
I think Qantas is deliberately trying to antagonise its staff into leaving so that it can employ new staff at cheaper rates. It is happening to pilots, LAMES and cabin crew. There are no shortage of people willing to take these jobs and will even accept less than the going rate to secure a foot in the door.
Why else would they treat their own staff so poorly!!
I just hope the people they recruit for these tasks are up to the job. Generally speaking, if you pay a lower remuneration you are going to get a lower quality candidate.
Point o five I was not making any veiled threats in my previous post. No LAME would ever consider such a thing!! I was merely trying to emphasise the importance of the job we do and that many mundane tasks done incorrectly can have devastating consequences.
My manager has stated that there we have too many LAMES in our area and future recruiting will be predominately AME's. Career advancement in the form of licence training will be very hard to come by even if we do get 777's and 380's(most of the work will probably be carried out in Singapore)
We already do more work with less ground time. I'm not looking forward to certifying A/C with less experienced people under me as well.
Qantas has grown to be a very large airline and they are cutting costs in so many areas now that it is simply a matter of time before a more serious accident occurs. I'm sure though that G.D. and the board of directors will have the backside covered.
The ATSB will do their crash investigation and find some poor shmuck LAME who forgot to do something at 0400 after already being at work for 10 hrs. Either that or blame pilot error.
Well, as G.D. says "if you don't like it leave!!" I will,he's just going to have to come up wth a redundancy package first.
Last edited by numbskull; 24th Mar 2005 at 09:16.
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the problem with there moaning about there being to many LAME's and that they want more AME's is that they will not be able to get them at the rates their offering.Entry level for an AME is about 34k base.For example over in the fitting shop they are so short staffed with machinest's(has been for the last 5yrs-there rate of pay is about 32k base) that there getting Lame's to do this like flap peening
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To be Honest how can the numbers and pays be justified at Q when really all the LAME in OZ today is a glorified AME,what difference is a LAME to AME....nothing in Q's eyes except a signatory. AME's do inspections,troubleshooting,functions etc where in most of the world only LAME's exercise these skills ,I've seen all white shirt crews in heavy on the tools when a crew of AME's can do EXACTLY the same job with the LH rubber stamping from his office.Until the LAME's stand UNITED keeping the AME's as MECHANICS and the LAME's utilising their skills and knowledge by LAME only inspections,troubleshooting,functions etc. then the Q LAME will have NO power for bargaining and still be deemed just an over paid mechanic.
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INCOGNIT0 where do you prepose that AME's get their SOE from. This is a natural career path for AME's .The difference between a Lame and an Ame is an intense 3 mth type coarse ,SOE and yrs of experience.What do you prupose AME's do at work.This is perhaps why we have a great saftey record in Australia.Incognito do you know what LAME'S AND AME'S do at work and the structure of the work place,because it sounds like you are from an office with no idea.
Last edited by sys 4; 23rd Mar 2005 at 20:55.
Incognito, it can and will be justified after an basic technical fault causes the death of 300+ passengers.
To put it another way, Numbskull's comment about the length and torque of windscreen bolts was very apt.
To put it yet another way, the legislation, regulations and rules are there for a reason.
One of those rules requires certain licenced people to sign off certain things.
To put it another way, Numbskull's comment about the length and torque of windscreen bolts was very apt.
To put it yet another way, the legislation, regulations and rules are there for a reason.
One of those rules requires certain licenced people to sign off certain things.
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As for all the aviation related disciplines under the one banner..........sounds great in theory...........could the TWU be the answer?????
1. ban all o/t in support of customer aircraft --STARTING WITH THE -RAAF BBJ-
2.TELL THE SCABS FROM BASE AND INTERNATIONAL AT SYDNEY TO COME ON BOARD -OR THEY CAN F..KOFF- BECAUSE WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND.
3. THE SCABS AT SYD INTERNATIONAL NOT TO DO DOMESTIC RELEIF WORK.
IF YOU DON'T SUPPORT DOMESTIC LAME'S- WE WILL REMEMBER WHEN YOU GUY'S ARE BEING SCREWED BY THE COMPANY- STARTING WITH THE PROPOSED MERGER OF BASE AND INTERNATIONAL AT SYD- WHEN YOU BLOKE'S WANT SUPPORT - YOU CAN STICK THAT UP YOUR ASS.
2.TELL THE SCABS FROM BASE AND INTERNATIONAL AT SYDNEY TO COME ON BOARD -OR THEY CAN F..KOFF- BECAUSE WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND.
3. THE SCABS AT SYD INTERNATIONAL NOT TO DO DOMESTIC RELEIF WORK.
IF YOU DON'T SUPPORT DOMESTIC LAME'S- WE WILL REMEMBER WHEN YOU GUY'S ARE BEING SCREWED BY THE COMPANY- STARTING WITH THE PROPOSED MERGER OF BASE AND INTERNATIONAL AT SYD- WHEN YOU BLOKE'S WANT SUPPORT - YOU CAN STICK THAT UP YOUR ASS.
Just remember the scabs who are screwing us in these sections will get looked after by the company. If you want to pay them back by telling them to jam it, you will only hurt the 70% of SIT and Base LAME's that do support us. The problem in these sections is the quality of their union leaders and their pi$$ weak mentality. They all get given cosy little office jobs to get them off shiftwork and are encouraging the silence that leaves the rest of them in the dark. Don't divide the boys further, it's what they want.
On a more somber note I was saddened to hear of the illness that has left the General Manager of Line Maintenance ops stuck in a hospital bed for a number of days. Get well soon Bruce from your friends in Melbourne.