Security Nonsense
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Security Nonsense
This is probably a sensitive issue to be airing in public; but why are pilots suddenly being required to pass through airport security screening along with the passengers at some airports, when all other air-side airport workers at these sites go about their business without such a requirement. Is this because pilots are unrepresented by a decent professional body or are considered a 'weak link' in the system. I believe that any uniformed pilot in possession of a valid ASIC card should refuse this nonsense until ALL airside staff are screened. Surely we are no greater threat to security than the caterers, baggage staff, engineers, refuellers etc. who all have access to the aircraft on bays without such screening.
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agree in essence but I think it is more a "visual thing"
Most crew get to their machine via the standard boarding gate /aerobridge. Therefore the travelling public see crew go through the same routine as they have to. Mob mentality, if I have to do it I think everyone else should.
Ground staff usually access the machine from airside using their ASIC swipe if requried. The public do not equate this in the same manner.
just a thought
Most crew get to their machine via the standard boarding gate /aerobridge. Therefore the travelling public see crew go through the same routine as they have to. Mob mentality, if I have to do it I think everyone else should.
Ground staff usually access the machine from airside using their ASIC swipe if requried. The public do not equate this in the same manner.
just a thought
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its politically driven as far as im concerned! terrorist dont hijack catering trucks! they hijack and fly the aircraft, as pilots.
second, CASA seized the opportunity for more revenue.
Its blatent revenue raising and political point scoring and nothing more...........
as for the undertone of a union, and would that have prevented such a measure! well, thats an interesting one, it quite possibly could have lead to strike action, if there was a union involved covering all pilots.
then the govt/CASA would turn it around and blame the pilots for undermining their security upgrades and making the travelling public more at risk of terrorism.
which we all know, security in the aviation industry is a farse and nothing more than window dressing. and an excuse to continue collecting taxes on the indusrty. aka The Ansett levy.
second, CASA seized the opportunity for more revenue.
Its blatent revenue raising and political point scoring and nothing more...........
as for the undertone of a union, and would that have prevented such a measure! well, thats an interesting one, it quite possibly could have lead to strike action, if there was a union involved covering all pilots.
then the govt/CASA would turn it around and blame the pilots for undermining their security upgrades and making the travelling public more at risk of terrorism.
which we all know, security in the aviation industry is a farse and nothing more than window dressing. and an excuse to continue collecting taxes on the indusrty. aka The Ansett levy.
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Wrong
CASA didn't do this. DoTARS did. We can't have a combined ASIC/Licence because of some secret documents which they wont show us, where a 'decision' was made.
oh, and we cant have credit card photo ID because of the precious God-Like drivers of White-Rat-Airline Classics. They have to have an ICAO licence, so we all have to suffer it too (spare me!!!).
What to do???
FOI the documents from DoTARS telling us why we cant have a licence/ID.
CASA didn't do this. DoTARS did. We can't have a combined ASIC/Licence because of some secret documents which they wont show us, where a 'decision' was made.
oh, and we cant have credit card photo ID because of the precious God-Like drivers of White-Rat-Airline Classics. They have to have an ICAO licence, so we all have to suffer it too (spare me!!!).
What to do???
FOI the documents from DoTARS telling us why we cant have a licence/ID.
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I think the visual explanation is close. The point being everywhere airside of the security point is supposed to be sterile. If pilots were to be let through without passing through security, it might be possible for others to slip through with them.
Alternatively someone might ask a pilot to carry something through for someone on the other side. Of course no self respecting pilot would... But picture a 25 year old attractive blonde asking a 35 year old FO to "Just take this book through for my poor old Aunty because I've left my handbag back at check-in..." and you start to realise the possibilities...
I do find it ludicrous the security operatives will ask an airline captain to step back and forth, getting them to remove their shoes, belt and even the shiny wings badge on their uniform shirt until the metal detector goes silent... But then you have to remember these people are recruited for their ability to repeat monotonous procedures and to lift heavy weights, not for their cerebral cortex logical processing capabilities. (Same for the security guards.)
VHCU
Alternatively someone might ask a pilot to carry something through for someone on the other side. Of course no self respecting pilot would... But picture a 25 year old attractive blonde asking a 35 year old FO to "Just take this book through for my poor old Aunty because I've left my handbag back at check-in..." and you start to realise the possibilities...
I do find it ludicrous the security operatives will ask an airline captain to step back and forth, getting them to remove their shoes, belt and even the shiny wings badge on their uniform shirt until the metal detector goes silent... But then you have to remember these people are recruited for their ability to repeat monotonous procedures and to lift heavy weights, not for their cerebral cortex logical processing capabilities. (Same for the security guards.)
VHCU
I didn't post this before, but perhaps I should right now.
The security ID I have says "Flight Crew".
The case its in with my licence is puchased from CASA and has "Commonwealth of Australia" stamped in gold on the outside.
I can buy one, two, three or even four bar gold epaulettes at skylines anytime. Wings can also be found. Similarly uniforms
My guess is that it would not be too hard at some airports to walk into a sterile area with a flight bag full of "Goodies" by impersonating a skygod.
The licences and ID's issued should differentiate between student pilots and skygods and the nice CASA licence holder looks just a little too "Official".
There are other tricks I wonder if our security screeners are on to. I once "ran" at security at Frankfurt with my girlfriend in an effort to catch a plane. The resulting one hour security check was very thorough. I wonder if an Australian security screener might not be tempted to just wave you through?
The security ID I have says "Flight Crew".
The case its in with my licence is puchased from CASA and has "Commonwealth of Australia" stamped in gold on the outside.
I can buy one, two, three or even four bar gold epaulettes at skylines anytime. Wings can also be found. Similarly uniforms
My guess is that it would not be too hard at some airports to walk into a sterile area with a flight bag full of "Goodies" by impersonating a skygod.
The licences and ID's issued should differentiate between student pilots and skygods and the nice CASA licence holder looks just a little too "Official".
There are other tricks I wonder if our security screeners are on to. I once "ran" at security at Frankfurt with my girlfriend in an effort to catch a plane. The resulting one hour security check was very thorough. I wonder if an Australian security screener might not be tempted to just wave you through?
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flyingfox, do you work for an airline? I suspect not! Why? Because you are wrong.
ANYONE proceeding through a screening point is to be screened, yes even
There are, of course, exeptions to the rule, for instance some diplomatic corps and police. The caterers and other airside staff you mention may not be screened if they enter the airside area through an access point other than a screening point (and sterile area). If I enter my aircraft from airside (i.e I don't walk thru the screening point) then I am not screened and furthermore, there is no requirement for me to be screened .
I have never heard a [real] pilot complain that they must subject themselves to screening when entering a sterile area (and eventually airside) through a screening point. In FACT, I would suggest that we would MUCH prefer it that way! Read some of the other replies on this thread for some very good reasons why.
ANYONE proceeding through a screening point is to be screened, yes even
caterers, baggage staff, engineers, refuellers etc.
I have never heard a [real] pilot complain that they must subject themselves to screening when entering a sterile area (and eventually airside) through a screening point. In FACT, I would suggest that we would MUCH prefer it that way! Read some of the other replies on this thread for some very good reasons why.
oh, and we cant have credit card photo ID because of the precious God-Like drivers of White-Rat-Airline Classics. They have to have an ICAO licence, so we all have to suffer it too (spare me!!!).
applehead
If I enter my aircraft from airside (i.e I don't walk thru the screening point) then I am not screened and furthermore, there is no requirement for me to be screened .
We will not be able to enter airside unless we have been through a screening point, baggage handlers, caterers, engineers and the like will.
I personally have no problems going through a screening point and some of the comments made previously explain why. Having said that I am aware of plenty of real pilots who do strongly object to it.
It is a non sense that aircrew MUST proceed through a screening point yet the above listed never see any type of security. If I enter airside through the same means as them why am I more of a risk???
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RENURPP
Incorrect. From the 10th, pilots (provided they meet ASIC requirements) can still access airside without being screened, as long as they (we) have a lawful purpose for doing so - see regulation 3.11. This is true whether a pilot is operating a screened air service or not.
Incorrect. From the 10th, pilots (provided they meet ASIC requirements) can still access airside without being screened, as long as they (we) have a lawful purpose for doing so - see regulation 3.11. This is true whether a pilot is operating a screened air service or not.
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Well, wef 10 Mar many (if not all?) QF patterns have been X-patterned to sign on 10mins earlier "due to screening requirements". And no, I am not referring to the trips to the USA (which IS on CIS). I'm referring to domestic sectors out of SYD. But not a mention elsewhere of what is occurring - nothing in FSO's, VIPS, CIS or on the intranet. So typical of QF's inability to keep people informed........... 
p.s. QF has just issued the FSO this afternoon. Yep..... everyone EXCEPT CREWMEMBERS will continue to be able to access airside unscreened. It really makes sense, doesn't it..... Oh, I see - everything's been considered - aircrew are now to conduct a security check of the aircraft, presumably to ensure non-aircrew haven't brought anything in through their unscreened entries and stashed it somewhere. So, right, everything's fine....
p.s. QF has just issued the FSO this afternoon. Yep..... everyone EXCEPT CREWMEMBERS will continue to be able to access airside unscreened. It really makes sense, doesn't it..... Oh, I see - everything's been considered - aircrew are now to conduct a security check of the aircraft, presumably to ensure non-aircrew haven't brought anything in through their unscreened entries and stashed it somewhere. So, right, everything's fine....
Last edited by Ron & Edna Johns; 8th Mar 2005 at 06:06.
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Apple, you are rebelling against this concept. Flight and Cabin Crew WILL be required to pass through security screening before entering the sterile area. This does not apply to our bretheren involved in ground based jobs. Therin lies the inequity. Got it now?
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flyingfox, do you work for an airline? I suspect not! Why? Because you are wrong.
ANYONE proceeding through a screening point is to be screened, yes even
.
ANYONE proceeding through a screening point is to be screened, yes even
.
as i said before, Airport security is a FARCE!
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The assumption by the law makers is that ground crew upon commencement of there shift will have subjected themselves to the screening point and usually though some part of the day will have to walk through the screening point.
It is however possible for air crew and cc to not go through the screening process at all in a given day by staying airside and avoiding the screening point whilst meanwhile carrying prohibited items onto the aircraft such as leathermans and scissors which would be seen as a injustice to all those pax who have had these items confiscated.
The other question is for crew bags that are placed in the hold, if they are going to be consistant these bags should also have to pass through the xray machines.
Something else for the lawmakers to worry about. Are they not happy with the process it takes to get a ASIC?
It is however possible for air crew and cc to not go through the screening process at all in a given day by staying airside and avoiding the screening point whilst meanwhile carrying prohibited items onto the aircraft such as leathermans and scissors which would be seen as a injustice to all those pax who have had these items confiscated.
The other question is for crew bags that are placed in the hold, if they are going to be consistant these bags should also have to pass through the xray machines.
Something else for the lawmakers to worry about. Are they not happy with the process it takes to get a ASIC?
Bottums Up
wirgin blew
and what x-ray machine would that be? Unless things have changed in very recent times, the International Airport I fly out of, only x-rays inbound bags!
When are they, DOTARS, going to mandate the amputation of my hands? I don't need to smuggle any device on board!!!
As RENURPP aluded, it's just stupid that a caterer (for example, and not casting aspersions against caterers) can wheel his unsecured catering trolley on-board then leave the aircraft, but I can't carry a leatherman on and stay on board. Any would-be terrorist that can remove my leatherman from my nav-bag doesn't need it, because s/he's already got control of the aircraft!
and what x-ray machine would that be? Unless things have changed in very recent times, the International Airport I fly out of, only x-rays inbound bags!
When are they, DOTARS, going to mandate the amputation of my hands? I don't need to smuggle any device on board!!!
As RENURPP aluded, it's just stupid that a caterer (for example, and not casting aspersions against caterers) can wheel his unsecured catering trolley on-board then leave the aircraft, but I can't carry a leatherman on and stay on board. Any would-be terrorist that can remove my leatherman from my nav-bag doesn't need it, because s/he's already got control of the aircraft!
Sprucegoose
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Sunfish,
Given that you have a flash licence in an "official looking case"
Does this mean that you are now a "skygod", or merely impersonating one?
Cheers, HH.
Given that you have a flash licence in an "official looking case"
Does this mean that you are now a "skygod", or merely impersonating one?
Cheers, HH.
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wirgin blew
The lawmakers do not assume any such thing. They know well that virtually all ground-crew do not get screened. The airlines are resisting this because it would involve massive disruption and cost if ALL ground-crew have to be screened. Imagine all ground engineers having to be transported to a screening point then transported to their actual place of work at Mascot, for example. Alternatively, multiple, new screening points will have to be set up around Mascot - at airline expense of course.
Aircrew are just the easy and cheap targets. It is curious though - aircrew have never attempted to hijack or blow up their own aircraft to my knowledge! The real threat (if there really is one....?) is from non-aircrew. I consider the risk from ground crew to be higher and yet it is ignored. And THAT is why the whole thing is a total f....g farce.
The lawmakers do not assume any such thing. They know well that virtually all ground-crew do not get screened. The airlines are resisting this because it would involve massive disruption and cost if ALL ground-crew have to be screened. Imagine all ground engineers having to be transported to a screening point then transported to their actual place of work at Mascot, for example. Alternatively, multiple, new screening points will have to be set up around Mascot - at airline expense of course.
Aircrew are just the easy and cheap targets. It is curious though - aircrew have never attempted to hijack or blow up their own aircraft to my knowledge! The real threat (if there really is one....?) is from non-aircrew. I consider the risk from ground crew to be higher and yet it is ignored. And THAT is why the whole thing is a total f..
..g farce.
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Slow learners and tunnel vision is all that can be said of persons responsible for this rediculous situation.
In the not too distant past there were a number of occasions where weapons, drugs etc: were located on aircraft (East coast of USA) and inquiries revealed that they were placed there by catering staff, baggage handlers etc; who were fully cleared and had been through the relevant security checks.
The above items were then located by a cabin staff member who removed same for the intended purpose.
Also, any operatives around are possibly " clean skins" and would now have a job in security as it is the fastest growing job section around and one must remember that the 9/11 operatives were "clean skins"until the event.
I won't eleborate further but must say the persons in control of this matter have let it get right out of control.
In the not too distant past there were a number of occasions where weapons, drugs etc: were located on aircraft (East coast of USA) and inquiries revealed that they were placed there by catering staff, baggage handlers etc; who were fully cleared and had been through the relevant security checks.
The above items were then located by a cabin staff member who removed same for the intended purpose.
Also, any operatives around are possibly " clean skins" and would now have a job in security as it is the fastest growing job section around and one must remember that the 9/11 operatives were "clean skins"until the event.
I won't eleborate further but must say the persons in control of this matter have let it get right out of control.
Last edited by jetstar21; 9th Mar 2005 at 03:31.
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Just one of my days....
Arrived at place of work, unlocked carpark security gate and accessed hangar via pin code. Turned lights on as shift arrived. Jumped into tarmac vehicle with others. We are now officially airside but thats OK as we all have AUS-wide ASICS. Drove around perimeter road to other side of airport. Accessed aerobridge via pin code, opened up a/c and fired up APU. Opened all doors, inspect it ,refuel it, sign it out and depart it. Enter domestic terminal departure level from tarmac, pick up documents and mail from counter staff and return airside. Drive back to hangar.
No security checks so far.
Work on other a/c. Phone rings 11/2 hrs later. A/C is AOG at XXX airport. Need a poofle valve and someone to fit it. Get poofle valve and box it up. Get tool box (now weighs less than 20 kgs due repeated excess baggage charges on rescues...thks DJ) while OPS arrange E ticket. Time is tight so enter taxiway system in tarmac vehicle and cross runway ( holding Cat 3 Airside Drivers Authority) to gate and enter terminal. Go to departures and check toolbox in. Proceed to security check. Take steel caps off (damn ...big toe showing), belt off, keys and change out , pens, phone etc etc. Time ticking down...
Oops X-ray belt is stopped.....
Who's box? ....
That'd be mine; I venture.
What is it?
A/C part....a poofle valve.
Whatzitdo?
Mmmmmm... how to explain to a security guard the function of a 2.5" electro pneumatically operated butterfly valve whilst holding shorts up and your big toe proudly exposed.
It opens and shuts to stop air.
Oh..... OK. Off you go.
Gather belongings and drag self to gate.
On return trip at XXX airport, not having actually fitted said poofle valve to a/c security guard had to call 2 supervisors after threatening to send me back to check in.
Like Hell I say...I carried it down and I'm not checking in a $15,000 item.
Supervisor purses lips and asks guard "Any sharp edges?" No?Then its OK"
I feel safer already.
Embarrassing .......only slightly
Inconsistent..........definitely. Always so when individuals involved.
Annoying ..............Yes
Necessary..............mmmYes.
Although I know I'm not a terrorist, that I've been working on a/c at airports for 20 odd years and have no intention of smuggling any sort of prohibited item on board (Yes I always leave my Leatherman behind!) NO-ONE ELSE KNOWS THAT and that is what it is all about.
Unfortunately.
LCD legislation.
No security checks so far.
Work on other a/c. Phone rings 11/2 hrs later. A/C is AOG at XXX airport. Need a poofle valve and someone to fit it. Get poofle valve and box it up. Get tool box (now weighs less than 20 kgs due repeated excess baggage charges on rescues...thks DJ) while OPS arrange E ticket. Time is tight so enter taxiway system in tarmac vehicle and cross runway ( holding Cat 3 Airside Drivers Authority) to gate and enter terminal. Go to departures and check toolbox in. Proceed to security check. Take steel caps off (damn ...big toe showing), belt off, keys and change out , pens, phone etc etc. Time ticking down...
Oops X-ray belt is stopped.....
Who's box? ....
That'd be mine; I venture.
What is it?
A/C part....a poofle valve.
Whatzitdo?
Mmmmmm... how to explain to a security guard the function of a 2.5" electro pneumatically operated butterfly valve whilst holding shorts up and your big toe proudly exposed.
It opens and shuts to stop air.
Oh..... OK. Off you go.
Gather belongings and drag self to gate.
On return trip at XXX airport, not having actually fitted said poofle valve to a/c security guard had to call 2 supervisors after threatening to send me back to check in.
Like Hell I say...I carried it down and I'm not checking in a $15,000 item.
Supervisor purses lips and asks guard "Any sharp edges?" No?Then its OK"
I feel safer already.
Embarrassing .......only slightly
Inconsistent..........definitely. Always so when individuals involved.
Annoying ..............Yes
Necessary..............mmmYes.
Although I know I'm not a terrorist, that I've been working on a/c at airports for 20 odd years and have no intention of smuggling any sort of prohibited item on board (Yes I always leave my Leatherman behind!) NO-ONE ELSE KNOWS THAT and that is what it is all about.
Unfortunately.
LCD legislation.
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The NAZI’s at SYD are the worst!
But hey I totally think it’s needed, as we have been getting away with blue murder for years and thank god the monkeys from GROUP4 are here to protect me from the F/O or check CAPT who may have put a nail clipper in his/her Nav bag. Whoo! Just imagine what could happen if a nail clipper was put in close contact the Axe behind my seat. Anyway pilots are not to be trusted, even if they have a valid ASIC and have been flying for 20 years with no criminal offenses. It’s the Flight attendants who are now in charge, so every effort should be made to treat the pilots with disrespect and as much distain as possible.
But hey I totally think it’s needed, as we have been getting away with blue murder for years and thank god the monkeys from GROUP4 are here to protect me from the F/O or check CAPT who may have put a nail clipper in his/her Nav bag. Whoo! Just imagine what could happen if a nail clipper was put in close contact the Axe behind my seat. Anyway pilots are not to be trusted, even if they have a valid ASIC and have been flying for 20 years with no criminal offenses. It’s the Flight attendants who are now in charge, so every effort should be made to treat the pilots with disrespect and as much distain as possible.