Ozjet merged threads
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Ozjet merged threads
I'm putting all the Ozjet threads in one to save a bit of time with multiple threads on the one topic.
Oh and for the record tyere were over 14,500 views of the original thread and over 8,500 views of the Tulla one.
Obviously there is a bit of interest n'est ce pas.
Oh and for the record tyere were over 14,500 views of the original thread and over 8,500 views of the Tulla one.
Obviously there is a bit of interest n'est ce pas.
Thread Starter
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The 146 engine was indeed originally designed for a tank. This is where the problems with the oil fumes came from, i.e it was simply not designed to be used to power a pressurised jet. As discussed, this problem has been rectified (and a long time ago at that).
P47, your silence is deafening now that those on this board with any practical experience on the 146 have put paid to your rubbish remarks. Before you get back to your GFPT study book, why don't you just say sorry and we can all be friends again
P47, your silence is deafening now that those on this board with any practical experience on the 146 have put paid to your rubbish remarks. Before you get back to your GFPT study book, why don't you just say sorry and we can all be friends again
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reply to Zig zag
From Zig zag, Quote: If the AAE 727's can fly around, Ozjet's 737's can.......Unquote.
I tend to agree, was thinking the same.
The AAE 727 flys over our house on take off moments from Kingsford-Smith late weeknights several times per week, the noise is a pain in the A*se!
So if they can, I am sure the 732 can, kit or no kit!
I tend to agree, was thinking the same.
The AAE 727 flys over our house on take off moments from Kingsford-Smith late weeknights several times per week, the noise is a pain in the A*se!
So if they can, I am sure the 732 can, kit or no kit!
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Just a quick question - does the business class layout, and the reduced number of passengers, significantly reduce the number of cabin crew required for operations? (eg. does it get you down to two cabin crew?)
Just a theory - if you go all business class, then you can reduce the number of cabin crew (reducing costs), reduce the number of passengers who will need to check luggage (because you can let them carry on a whole lot more - see the recent trend in Europe to let people carry on practically anything), reduce ground crew (because there won't be that much to handle), and possibly make some real money from freight (because there will be plenty of spare capacity).
Could freight be playing a major role in their business case?
Perhaps they have worked out that they would rather just carry high yield customers, rather than the leisure market with all their luggage, etc. and leave the rest of the space for freight?
Thoughts?
Just a theory - if you go all business class, then you can reduce the number of cabin crew (reducing costs), reduce the number of passengers who will need to check luggage (because you can let them carry on a whole lot more - see the recent trend in Europe to let people carry on practically anything), reduce ground crew (because there won't be that much to handle), and possibly make some real money from freight (because there will be plenty of spare capacity).
Could freight be playing a major role in their business case?
Perhaps they have worked out that they would rather just carry high yield customers, rather than the leisure market with all their luggage, etc. and leave the rest of the space for freight?
Thoughts?
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nightrider - have recently been told by someone who apparantly knows that they only need two FA's by the regs but they are going to go with three for better service.
Also heard that they're having trouble finding 146 Check and Trainers. That could slow them down a bit!
Also heard that they're having trouble finding 146 Check and Trainers. That could slow them down a bit!
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If the regs say they need two, but they are planning on having three, this might provide some savings (eg. if someone calls in sick, then they can still operate with only two cabin crew). Might save on having people on call, and prevent delays if they can't get someone in?
Claret..........
Sorry Claret, It was an off-the-cuff remark I should have clarified....
People are throwing mud at the fact the 737's purely because they have JT8's. Conveniently forgotten are the 727's still flying around the country.
Not sure on the hush kit status of either type, but:
a) If the 73's have been flying around Europe, surely they conform to some sort of regulation (aren't some places in Europe stricter than Aus)?
b) The noise abatement issue probably would have been one of the FIRST things Ozjet looked at when deciding on flying 73's around Australia (?) Surely (?)
Even so, I dare say a (hush-kitted) 727 at night would cause more issues with people living in a flightpath than a (non h-k) 737-200 during the day. I'm not convinced hush-kits are THAT much quieter. Just my 5 cents.
As a side note, gotta love the people putting down the 146. If they are so concerned about it's Air Con issues, why aren't they on here every single day calling for NJS/Qlink to stop using them?
People are throwing mud at the fact the 737's purely because they have JT8's. Conveniently forgotten are the 727's still flying around the country.
Not sure on the hush kit status of either type, but:
a) If the 73's have been flying around Europe, surely they conform to some sort of regulation (aren't some places in Europe stricter than Aus)?
b) The noise abatement issue probably would have been one of the FIRST things Ozjet looked at when deciding on flying 73's around Australia (?) Surely (?)
Even so, I dare say a (hush-kitted) 727 at night would cause more issues with people living in a flightpath than a (non h-k) 737-200 during the day. I'm not convinced hush-kits are THAT much quieter. Just my 5 cents.
As a side note, gotta love the people putting down the 146. If they are so concerned about it's Air Con issues, why aren't they on here every single day calling for NJS/Qlink to stop using them?
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ZigZag
NJS - Out of sight, out of mind. And NJS SLF are probably all used to air pollution anyway. Haven't you seen some of the more experienced guys on a 146 carrying a little yellow canary in a cage as an early warning device?
Q-Link - I thought they were dropping the 146 in favour of the new Bombardier "Q400", or whatever the anti-phased cabin noise version of the Dash 8 is called these days.
Has there any other aircraft that has been the subject of a Senate Enquiry into cabin and flight deck air quality? And all that happened while some of them had red tails with a white kangaroo on them, in spite of the world's greatest airline-owned political lobbying machine permanently based in Canberra. Even they couldn't stop that enquiry.
Where there's smoke, there's gotta be smoke. If the faulty air exchanger seal problem is all fixed now, that's absolutely fantastic, but the 146 brand is irrevocably damaged. It's a bit like the DC10 after Chicago and Erebus. Wasn't the DC10's fault, we all know that, but they ended up changing the name to distance themselves from the bad PR.
So I think what the people here are getting het up about is the 146 being used on intercapital trunk routes where the readership here is more likely to be flying... In other words, it's a NIMBY issue. Or more to the point a NOMJA issue - Not On My Jet Airliner!
Gotta go, nurse says it's time for my medication.
Cheers
VHCU
NJS - Out of sight, out of mind. And NJS SLF are probably all used to air pollution anyway. Haven't you seen some of the more experienced guys on a 146 carrying a little yellow canary in a cage as an early warning device?
Q-Link - I thought they were dropping the 146 in favour of the new Bombardier "Q400", or whatever the anti-phased cabin noise version of the Dash 8 is called these days.
Has there any other aircraft that has been the subject of a Senate Enquiry into cabin and flight deck air quality? And all that happened while some of them had red tails with a white kangaroo on them, in spite of the world's greatest airline-owned political lobbying machine permanently based in Canberra. Even they couldn't stop that enquiry.
Where there's smoke, there's gotta be smoke. If the faulty air exchanger seal problem is all fixed now, that's absolutely fantastic, but the 146 brand is irrevocably damaged. It's a bit like the DC10 after Chicago and Erebus. Wasn't the DC10's fault, we all know that, but they ended up changing the name to distance themselves from the bad PR.
So I think what the people here are getting het up about is the 146 being used on intercapital trunk routes where the readership here is more likely to be flying... In other words, it's a NIMBY issue. Or more to the point a NOMJA issue - Not On My Jet Airliner!
Gotta go, nurse says it's time for my medication.
Cheers
VHCU
Evertonian
64 seats @ $200 per tkt = $12800 per sector if full.
MINUS 2 Tech + 3 Cabin crew.
Lots of fuel.
Ground handling.
Landing fees.
Ancillary costs etc, etc.
I'm not the sharpest tool in the box, but this works how?
MINUS 2 Tech + 3 Cabin crew.
Lots of fuel.
Ground handling.
Landing fees.
Ancillary costs etc, etc.
I'm not the sharpest tool in the box, but this works how?
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VHCU & zigzag
The beastie is hush kitted. Just look at the rear of the turbine and you will see the extension that was added to quiet them down.
As for non hushkitted 737s being quieter than a 727-200, if the turbines are the same mark # as the DC9-30s, the look out!
JT8D-7s on the TN a/c if memory serves - they crackled something terrible.
The theory is quite valid, but I feel $200.00 a sector may be an undercall. I have lots of passengers who would pay $250.00 (probably plus taxes) for a seat with legroom and full service. At least they are looking for a point of difference, and trying to find a market niche rather than going full tilt at the incumbents. The choice of aeroplane is quite interesting, but I suppose the girl owes Paul nothing in the long run.
We will see I guess.
And - I just noticed that there may be some of the ex AN 146 girls involved. I hope he keeps the Echo Whiskey regos on the ex Eenie Weenie aeroplanes. It would be wonderful to see my old friends off the fence and running again. I cannot remember one "fumes in cabin" incident at EW, but they were the front line aeroplane and the LAMEs tended to keep ahead of the Lucas electrics and the Avco Lycomings foibles.
Yay girls!!! Hopefully a new life!
Best all
EWL
The beastie is hush kitted. Just look at the rear of the turbine and you will see the extension that was added to quiet them down.
As for non hushkitted 737s being quieter than a 727-200, if the turbines are the same mark # as the DC9-30s, the look out!
JT8D-7s on the TN a/c if memory serves - they crackled something terrible.
The theory is quite valid, but I feel $200.00 a sector may be an undercall. I have lots of passengers who would pay $250.00 (probably plus taxes) for a seat with legroom and full service. At least they are looking for a point of difference, and trying to find a market niche rather than going full tilt at the incumbents. The choice of aeroplane is quite interesting, but I suppose the girl owes Paul nothing in the long run.
We will see I guess.
And - I just noticed that there may be some of the ex AN 146 girls involved. I hope he keeps the Echo Whiskey regos on the ex Eenie Weenie aeroplanes. It would be wonderful to see my old friends off the fence and running again. I cannot remember one "fumes in cabin" incident at EW, but they were the front line aeroplane and the LAMEs tended to keep ahead of the Lucas electrics and the Avco Lycomings foibles.
Yay girls!!! Hopefully a new life!
Best all
EWL
Last edited by Eastwest Loco; 28th Feb 2005 at 10:59.
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Let's ignore the whole 30-year old airframe, hush/non-hush and oily cabin mist thing for a moment.
$200 a sector? Give me a break!
Let's just talk MEL-SYD for the moment. Internet prices.
One way only. (Return is usually double, plus QF charges a $3 noise levy ex-YSSY!) Not including credit card levy.
QF fully flexible economy = $360
QF J class (fully flexible, natch) = $554
DJ Fully Flexible = $239
Extra for "Blue Zone" (Exit row - 40 inch pitch) optional $30
So right now, business people are shelling out between $239 and $360 for fully flexible economy, or $554 for a wider seat, more leg room, swanky finger food or a hot meal and free turps.
Why would OzJet only charge $200? They'd be back in the Tasmanian Ferry Passenger quadrant of the market matrix, the SLF the Ppruners love to hate. That's not the market OzJet will be chasing, IMO. I am sure they'll be expecting to get yields more like $300 a sector or even more, perhaps even closer to the QF full Y fare of $360.
Let's face it, if the experience is comparable to QF J class and they charge QF Y class equivalent, I reckon they'll be selling tickets all day. Everyone I know wants to try it.
Of course they are all nervous about the age of the airframes but if a couple of flights make it without doing a Comet over the Med simulation, they'll troop along and stump up and expect the works for their $300 - $360.
Most people I know have no idea about the senate enquiry on the 146 so unless it happens on a flight they'll not notice. Media spotlight could change that perception, though.
As for the engine noise, is it going be noticeably louder than a 737-800 inside the cabin? Pity the poor residents of Sunbury and Redfern, but who else is going to notice?
So 60 * 300 (say) * 80% LF = $14,400
Expenses estimate:
Fuel = $4,000
Maintenance $1,000
ANC & Landing Fees etc say $1,500
Tech Crew (2 Pilots) say $400 per sector (or does the -200 need a F/E?)
Cabin Crew say $360 per sector (3 crew)
Food at $25 per pax = $1200
Total Expenses = $8,860 per sector
Gross Profit per sector $5,540 before head office burden allocation.
10 sectors a day, say... $55,400 Gross Profit per airframe. Should support a Minardi or two...
Am I missing something? Doesn't look that bad to me.
Roll on the increased competition, I say.
Cheers
VHCU
$200 a sector? Give me a break!
Let's just talk MEL-SYD for the moment. Internet prices.
One way only. (Return is usually double, plus QF charges a $3 noise levy ex-YSSY!) Not including credit card levy.
QF fully flexible economy = $360
QF J class (fully flexible, natch) = $554
DJ Fully Flexible = $239
Extra for "Blue Zone" (Exit row - 40 inch pitch) optional $30
So right now, business people are shelling out between $239 and $360 for fully flexible economy, or $554 for a wider seat, more leg room, swanky finger food or a hot meal and free turps.
Why would OzJet only charge $200? They'd be back in the Tasmanian Ferry Passenger quadrant of the market matrix, the SLF the Ppruners love to hate. That's not the market OzJet will be chasing, IMO. I am sure they'll be expecting to get yields more like $300 a sector or even more, perhaps even closer to the QF full Y fare of $360.
Let's face it, if the experience is comparable to QF J class and they charge QF Y class equivalent, I reckon they'll be selling tickets all day. Everyone I know wants to try it.
Of course they are all nervous about the age of the airframes but if a couple of flights make it without doing a Comet over the Med simulation, they'll troop along and stump up and expect the works for their $300 - $360.
Most people I know have no idea about the senate enquiry on the 146 so unless it happens on a flight they'll not notice. Media spotlight could change that perception, though.
As for the engine noise, is it going be noticeably louder than a 737-800 inside the cabin? Pity the poor residents of Sunbury and Redfern, but who else is going to notice?
So 60 * 300 (say) * 80% LF = $14,400
Expenses estimate:
Fuel = $4,000
Maintenance $1,000
ANC & Landing Fees etc say $1,500
Tech Crew (2 Pilots) say $400 per sector (or does the -200 need a F/E?)
Cabin Crew say $360 per sector (3 crew)
Food at $25 per pax = $1200
Total Expenses = $8,860 per sector
Gross Profit per sector $5,540 before head office burden allocation.
10 sectors a day, say... $55,400 Gross Profit per airframe. Should support a Minardi or two...
Am I missing something? Doesn't look that bad to me.
Roll on the increased competition, I say.
Cheers
VHCU
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Is that all?
Cheer-up....I don't think your assessments would cheer up any airline proprietor.
What about ground handling charges (like check-in, cleaning, load/unload bags + cargo), insurances, security screening, catering ground handling (who puts the grub on the aircraft, and the removes the dregs?), selling selling costs and flight planning to name but a few of the charges and fees that airlines pay as direct operational costs. To these you must add standing charges and overheads necessary to support the outfit. Put bluntly, it's not as simple as you may think!
What about ground handling charges (like check-in, cleaning, load/unload bags + cargo), insurances, security screening, catering ground handling (who puts the grub on the aircraft, and the removes the dregs?), selling selling costs and flight planning to name but a few of the charges and fees that airlines pay as direct operational costs. To these you must add standing charges and overheads necessary to support the outfit. Put bluntly, it's not as simple as you may think!
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Don, sorry, the back of my envelope didn't extend that far. Feel free to throw your additional computations onto the barbie and let the forum grill 'em!
Would be interesting to see the collective IQ gathered here at this forum might determine whether the OzJet concept is viable, and if it is, how so...
Assume the ticket sales are mostly via internet (sorry for EWL and those of his ilk, but probably 70% domestic seats are sold that way). Internet development, management, call centre costs, say $10 per ticket, OK?
That's another $480 expense per 80% full load.
Cleaning, ground handling, dunno, maybe $250 per turnround?
Flight Planning cost... search me, thought the crew did that.
Check-in what? Ozjet purportedly offering to let SLF carry on three bags each, sounds like the SLF is self-loading its own bags... Check in pax - say two ground attendants at $40 per hour, say $80 per sector load?
Say the airport charges a per pax charge for the facilities too, say $10 per pax - another $480.
Where does that bring us... an extra $1290 in expenses, per sector?
So if the revenue is 14,400, expenses now are $10,150, profit per sector is $4,250, profit if 10 sectors flown per day is $42,500.
What else is missing?
I started my original post not to estimate the feasibility or otherwise, but to support the notion the price per sector could be considerably higher than the $200 - $250 mooted earlier.
Someone else reckoned the aircraft owed Mr. S zip, so there's no depreciation. Did I get the fuel cost wrong? Is $4k enough to get between MEL-SYD or vice versa?
Dunno, Don, I know it's not that simple, but just how complicated is it?
I still reckon it's worth a bash. Always worth a bash with OPM, anyway!
Any bush accountants out there got a properly informed view?
VHCU
Would be interesting to see the collective IQ gathered here at this forum might determine whether the OzJet concept is viable, and if it is, how so...
Assume the ticket sales are mostly via internet (sorry for EWL and those of his ilk, but probably 70% domestic seats are sold that way). Internet development, management, call centre costs, say $10 per ticket, OK?
That's another $480 expense per 80% full load.
Cleaning, ground handling, dunno, maybe $250 per turnround?
Flight Planning cost... search me, thought the crew did that.
Check-in what? Ozjet purportedly offering to let SLF carry on three bags each, sounds like the SLF is self-loading its own bags... Check in pax - say two ground attendants at $40 per hour, say $80 per sector load?
Say the airport charges a per pax charge for the facilities too, say $10 per pax - another $480.
Where does that bring us... an extra $1290 in expenses, per sector?
So if the revenue is 14,400, expenses now are $10,150, profit per sector is $4,250, profit if 10 sectors flown per day is $42,500.
What else is missing?
I started my original post not to estimate the feasibility or otherwise, but to support the notion the price per sector could be considerably higher than the $200 - $250 mooted earlier.
Someone else reckoned the aircraft owed Mr. S zip, so there's no depreciation. Did I get the fuel cost wrong? Is $4k enough to get between MEL-SYD or vice versa?
Dunno, Don, I know it's not that simple, but just how complicated is it?
I still reckon it's worth a bash. Always worth a bash with OPM, anyway!
Any bush accountants out there got a properly informed view?
VHCU
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Stoddard owns the EU biggest aircraft pars company.
Im sure there are enough spares left over from the -200 days in the EU and the US to keep the Oz fleet running for quite a while.
Im sure there are enough spares left over from the -200 days in the EU and the US to keep the Oz fleet running for quite a while.
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I have been quietly reading all the responses to the Ozjet threads over the past few weeks. I am a personal friend of a Director and have had an inside track on the formation of the business for over three years.
Believe me when I tell you that this Director is a very intelligent cookie and far too smart to have been content flying the line like the rest of us pilot sheep. All the inane arguments you lot have thrown up in these pages about noise, cost etc just make me laugh. Do you really think that the investors would have risked their funds without the satisfactory arguments and answers to the thousand other unasked (in this forum) questions that would confront someone launching a project of this magnitude?
All you should be asking is where to apply if you like the sound of things to come. If you are already happy with your lot then why bash what you don't understand? Call me in 2008 and we'll discuss over a beer.
CC.
Believe me when I tell you that this Director is a very intelligent cookie and far too smart to have been content flying the line like the rest of us pilot sheep. All the inane arguments you lot have thrown up in these pages about noise, cost etc just make me laugh. Do you really think that the investors would have risked their funds without the satisfactory arguments and answers to the thousand other unasked (in this forum) questions that would confront someone launching a project of this magnitude?
All you should be asking is where to apply if you like the sound of things to come. If you are already happy with your lot then why bash what you don't understand? Call me in 2008 and we'll discuss over a beer.
CC.
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these 732's are rumored to have 55000 flt hours + many cycles-
qf are retireing there 733@734's with that many hours/cycles.
all aboard the SH#Tbox express.---
qf are retireing there 733@734's with that many hours/cycles.
all aboard the SH#Tbox express.---
Last edited by the lost one; 1st Mar 2005 at 11:26.