The 'No' campaign

[Shagtastic]

Fancy a pint? 'YES'

Wanna pay for your rating? 'NO F... OFF!

An ambitious ideal but greedy employers have to hear pilots start saying no from now on. Agree?

[Highbypasss]

Of course I agree. Of course we ALL agree! But HOW?......WHO???.....WHERE???

At this stage (apparently) it's all just an "idea" and not yet finalised at Eastern. (Dash 8)

.......................................................:cool : H

[Reverseflowkeroburna]

HOW?

With the strength of character that a dozen other employers would be proud to have in their organisation & that which will earn you the respect of your industry colleagues!


WHO?

With the individual of course.....YOU!


WHERE?

At the point where you'd like to continue your career with the dignity you deserve & that which you'd like to see your children have for themselves!




But easy it will not be Grasshopper!!!!

[MOR]

It'll never happen.

Far too many pimply youths, who are more concerned with furthering their careers than trying to stop this nonsense. Those that say "no" will have no jobs (but still have their dignity), those that say "yes" will have the jobs, and no concept of dignity.

As far as I am concerned, the ones that pay for type ratings are not really that different to those who work during strikes... you know... sc (no no mustn't say it)

[Icarus2001]

So you are saying...

Pay for Private Licence - Acceptable

Pay for Commercial Licence - Acceptable

Pay for Instrument Rating - Acceptable

Pay for Instructor Rating - Acceptable

Pay for type endorsement - No bloody way, who do they think they are etc etc

Just because this is new in Aus does that make it "wrong". FWIT I do not not like the idea either but why is it so different to buying a licence and a CIR? Go to Uni and pay as well!

Yes the companies should pay for a type endorsement but the reality is say no and no job. You can get on your soap box as much as you like on an anonymous internet forum but it will not change the reality.

I have to say though, $15-20K for a DHC8 endorsement and then earn $43K and live in Sydney does not sound as good as $20K for a B737 endorsement and earn $85K and live in Brisbane.

[distracted cockroach]

MOR, I really resent that comment about the "s" word that must not be said.
A scab is someone who takes the job of a worker who is on strike or locked out. The only recent real example I can think of are the low lifes who took jobs at Ansett NZ when their pilots were locked out. It has no similarity to buying a type rating.
If a company is demanding it's current employees pay for a type rating, then they are out of line and a good employment contract should prevent it.
If a company is offering a new job with a type rating as a prerequsite (a la Pac Blue, Jetconnect, Freedom, VB etc) then the purchase of a type rating is up to the individual. Buy a rating and get a job, or wait to be called up by Air NZ/Qantas/Emirates/SQ/Cathay or whoever. Pay your money or take your chances.
Yes I paid for a type rating and I have no regrets. I may still be waiting for that call.
Like it or not (and personally I don't) but times have changed.

[Binoculars]

Disclaimer: Not a pilot, no axe to grind, perhaps even to some I have no right to comment.

The logic in the first half of Icarus's post is unassailable. Not liking something does not by definition make it unacceptable, and the spotty faced youths accused of undermining the profession were there five, ten, twenty and thirty years ago and always will be there as long as people get stars in their eyes about flying like a bird.

Airline companies are waking up to the essential facts of supply and demand and are using that rule to their advantage. Those losing out are naturally squealing and I don't blame them, but it's out of perceived losses in conditions and status rather than anything inherently unfair.

I often wonder if those in airline jobs who take the high moral ground now can look at their own history and honestly say they were any different when they had stars in their own young eyes. Was there anything in their life more important than furthering their careers back then?

[Kamelf Hucker]

I love how suddenly everyone else in the world is an expert on pilots' conditions. Where's sunfish with his expert opinion as well?

Wanna pay for your rating? 'NO F... OFF!

"Whaddawewant??? Free ratings...... Stick together lads!"

*quietly sneaks off*

"Yeah I'll have that job, here's the cash..."

See the problem? Nice idea, but it's too late, thanks to capitalistic adventurism.

[matca]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, (and please address replies to me personally, I wont take offense) but don't they want you to fly their aircraft to make a profit for themselves? In that case it should be their business cost and it should be factored into the airfare cost??? It is not up to the employee to bear the risk of a business plan, it is up to the business. They are the ones making the big dollars and if they're not that's their problem. If the business fails and you are out of a job? You knew this before you entered the industry and if you didn't, where have you been since Orville and Wilbur

Deadset - I would think it's ok to pay for a course that increases your employability whilst you are not employed, and that's what doing a ppl, cpl, cir or instructor rating is, but to be asked to pay for something that the employer requires for him to make money out of your sweat, hello............hello..............hello??????

What the f*^k are you clowns thinking? If you pay for a type rating whilst employed by somebody who needs you to fly that type so they can make money out of you??????

Don't you ever whinge on this forum, in the pub or anywhere else 'cause you've got no right.

Why don't you bastards form a credible union that represents everybody. The truth is there's a group of you who know they are on a good wicket and are sweating on making it to retirement without losing too much. There's another group who think they've 'made it' because they fly jets, but deep down they know they may be asked to pay for another type rating and will use every excuse to justify doing so, 'it's a tax deduction,' 'it's the new world order,' 'it's a pay rise to fly this type and I'll get my investment back in only 3 years.' There's another group who are young and impressionable who are made to think that these are the options they have.

'My name's Jack, and I'm alright' (f*^k the rest of you, so long as I'm alright)

The realities are there are opportunities to make a good living in many fields, if you are industrious enough to get a pilots licence, you are industrious enough to have a back-up. Tell them to f*^k off, do something else or fly for an organisation that values you. If no-body does, tell them all to f*^k off while their 'planes rot on an apron somewhere. Here's an idea, build a homebuilt with two or three mates, (it'll cost you the same as paying for an endorsement) have a homelife and enjoy your flying, (after you've told the parasites to f*^k off)

There are some industries that require representation, you blokes (sorry, and birds) do. More than anything, you need protection from yourselves. There are some unions that are affective and it's not about being a militant t*^d that runs through an office and scares the be-jesus out of your sister or missus.

It's about that fella at the top on $250,000:00 + saying 'that fella coming in on the dash is not paying for his/her endorsement' and the fella coming in on the dash saying 'no, I'm not paying for the endorsement on the dash' (knowing that his brother at the top is supporting him).

The revolution will come (history tells us this) have you got the balls or are you going to leave it to your kids, then again;

'My name's Jack, and I'm alright' (f*^k the rest of you, so long as I'm alright)

[Kamelf Hucker]

wow... anyone know if a huge shipment of really good Columbian sh!t has hit the streets lately???

[justathought]

matca,
quote
" but don't they want you to fly their aircraft to make a profit for themselves? "

thats a stink argument dude, as a pilot, don't you want to fly that aircraft to make a profit for yourself? You need that rating in order to offer the service for which you want to be paid.

That said....I think that the airlines should pay for the ratings....mainly because then I wont have to.
Your post is good for a laugh tho, this dude on the Dash, don't worry about him....he's probably going to be ok anyway if his brother is the fella at the top on 250k.

ttfn

[MOR]

distracted cockroach

A scab is someone who takes the job of a worker who is on strike or locked out.

And someone who pays for a type rating is quite possibly taking a job from somebody more experienced or capable, purely on the basis of having the money to take advantage of greedy airlines.

They are different, but both are morally corrupt and my point is that in my book, those who pay for type ratings are of a similar moral level to sc - oops better not say it...

In your case, you are also a hypocrite. You say you don't like it, but you do it anyway. Not a lot of backbone on display there.

So now, when I see your username, I will have a clear mental picture of your moral values. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[distracted cockroach]

MOR
If you want to get into a personal slagging match, I'll leave you to it. You don't know what my situation is/was so your opinion is really irrelevent to me.
Fact of the matter is.....if you are forced into the job market in any industry, sometimes you need to upskill to get a new job. This now applies to aviation in many incidences.
Like I said before, inside a company, different story, but in the open market it's best insect for themselves.
Times change, like it or not.

[MOR]

best insect for themselves

Yes, that pretty well sums it up...

[Animalclub]

MOR

Your analogy is a little strange. It's just like saying that Universities (or any school for that matter that charges a fee for tuition) are being greedy.

There's no such thing as a free lunch. Someone has to pay in the end!!

[donpizmeov]

Out of interest take a look at qantas.com.au, have a look at employment, and click on graduate. Its says that qf will fully sponsor a bean counter for a CPA. Yet they expect their Jet* drivers to couth up for a rating.
That just shows where pilots fit in the airline food chain these days.
Should have become a train driver instead.

Don

[F/O Bloggs]

Distracted Cockroach

According to the Concise Oxford Dictionary- "a scab is a person who refuses to join a strike or takes a striker place. "
If you are not on strike and get locked out by the company for refusing to accept the company's contractual conditions, and others join the company who are willing to accept those contractual conditions, then what is the difference to your case as to your purchasing an endorsement which is a condition of employment to the company. As MOR sees it you are just undercutting someone else who is not willing to or cannot pay for an endorsement and therefore just as morally reprehensible.

[Al E. Vator]

Why is anybody even contemplating this rubbish?

Does a freight company ask a driver to pay for his forklift rating?
Does NASA ask astronauts to pay for Space Shuttle ratings?

My brother is an accountant. He got a new job where the employer
paid him to finish his CPA qualifications.

The answer is simple, too many pilots and too few jobs and the employer can shaft you however he likes. The only answers are:
1) Less pilots more jobs or
2) ONE pilot union (combination of AIPA and AFAP) whose leaders are paid and not simply using the union as a ladder to management. If pilots don't join that union they should not be entitled to any gains the union acheives on behalf of the members.

In the short term, I dont see either of the above happenning. Until somebody takes charge, you guys are going to get progressively more shafted by the upwardly-mobile Corporate types.

Paying for ratings isn't scabbing as such but still undermines everybody. Don't do it.

[bigfella5]

FOR GODS SAKE YOU MORONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.......................one union,one point of view (generally),one way of getting around in the airline world........it's so bloody simple!!!!!!!!!
Please sweet Jesus, it'd be nice to see some balls being exhibited on this forum now and again.

[MOR]

Animalclub

It's just like saying that Universities (or any school for that matter that charges a fee for tuition) are being greedy.

Not at all, in fact your analogy is faulty.

The qualification that you need to fly an aircraft is a CPL. It is analogous to the qualification you need to be a lawyer (LLB).

In the same way that a newly-qualified lawyer, or accountant, or doctor, then goes on to specialise at the expense of their employer , so a pilot goes on to specialise by training on a particular type of aircraft.

It has nothing to do with fees, it is about the point at which general training gives way to specific training.

F/O Bloggs says:

you are just undercutting someone else who is not willing to or cannot pay for an endorsement and therefore just as morally reprehensible.

That is exactly right. It is no longer about ability or aptitude, it is about money, and the result is that some questionable people have got jobs that they have essentially bought.

The correct criteria are skill and ability.