The 'No' campaign
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So if I want to run BHP, should I tell those greedy mining magnates to shut up and pay for my Harvard MBA so I can do the job properly?
Or do you think they might want me to pay for it myself and make sure I can perform, before taking me on in a lesser role at some massive salary package?
Or do you think they might want me to pay for it myself and make sure I can perform, before taking me on in a lesser role at some massive salary package?
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Funny you should say that, it is often exactly what happens.
Corporates often identify promising performers at university level and pay for their advanced studies.
Paying for it yourself indicates precisely nothing about your abilty to perform at the highest management levels.
You certainly won't get taken on with a massive salary package, and be allowed to work below your pay grade - never happens.
Corporates understand the need to select people with potential and nurture them. Airlines, on the other hand, increasingly perceive pilots as expensive bus drivers. To an extent they are right, as very few pilots ever rise to senior management levels where they can have a positive impact on the bottom line.
It isn't the glamorous job it once was, and pilots will continue to be marginalised as accountants become more controlling.
Corporates often identify promising performers at university level and pay for their advanced studies.
Paying for it yourself indicates precisely nothing about your abilty to perform at the highest management levels.
You certainly won't get taken on with a massive salary package, and be allowed to work below your pay grade - never happens.
Corporates understand the need to select people with potential and nurture them. Airlines, on the other hand, increasingly perceive pilots as expensive bus drivers. To an extent they are right, as very few pilots ever rise to senior management levels where they can have a positive impact on the bottom line.
It isn't the glamorous job it once was, and pilots will continue to be marginalised as accountants become more controlling.
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Been away for a few days.. back now.
I am a bit surprised to see MOR's remark about 'pimple faced wanabees' paying the coin for a rating and subsequently screwing every other bugger.
Never a truer word said, I'll give him that, but the National Jet pilots who have accepted a pay cut and will cough up $35,000 for a 717 rating aren't exactly pimple faced wanabees are they. These guys have been around for years.
Pimple faced 50 year olds happy to screw themselves more like it.
Shaggy
I am a bit surprised to see MOR's remark about 'pimple faced wanabees' paying the coin for a rating and subsequently screwing every other bugger.
Never a truer word said, I'll give him that, but the National Jet pilots who have accepted a pay cut and will cough up $35,000 for a 717 rating aren't exactly pimple faced wanabees are they. These guys have been around for years.
Pimple faced 50 year olds happy to screw themselves more like it.
Shaggy
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Sorry shaggy, thinking in Euro terms.
There is only one thing in this industry more immoral than kiddies jumping the queue on the basis of daddy's visa card... and that is airlines that force existing employees to re-train at their own cost. That should be illegal in Oz. It is almost certainly illegal in Europe (under European law). Of course we won't know until someone takes it to the courts.
Of course you are right, those smooth-cheeked 50-year-olds are screwing themselves (and everyone in the same position in the future).
I thought Aussie unions had balls?
There is only one thing in this industry more immoral than kiddies jumping the queue on the basis of daddy's visa card... and that is airlines that force existing employees to re-train at their own cost. That should be illegal in Oz. It is almost certainly illegal in Europe (under European law). Of course we won't know until someone takes it to the courts.
Of course you are right, those smooth-cheeked 50-year-olds are screwing themselves (and everyone in the same position in the future).
I thought Aussie unions had balls?
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Under the concepts of market economics - pilots should be doing a cost/benefit analysis of self-funded type ratings.
Ignoring the moral and philosophical arguments. Given the low, and apparently declining wages being paid in Australia - it might be considered a poor investment.
The figures I saw quoted here for a Dash-8 endorsement, when compared to salary paid for a Dash-8 pilot - do not make the endorsement a wise, prudent or economically rational investment.
Ignoring the moral and philosophical arguments. Given the low, and apparently declining wages being paid in Australia - it might be considered a poor investment.
The figures I saw quoted here for a Dash-8 endorsement, when compared to salary paid for a Dash-8 pilot - do not make the endorsement a wise, prudent or economically rational investment.
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I have often seen comments on D&G about people happy to pay for a 737 rating in order to get into say Virgin Blue, and then with the jet airline experience under ones belt apply to the likes of Emirates, Cathay or QF etc.
I wouldn't be surprised if these players introduce self funded type rating schemes themselves in the near future if they see they can get away with it.
Hence the need for pilots to start declining the offer of buying a rating and obtaining a position based on your financial resources.
It seems ironic however that even attractive outfits such as Emirates is going downhill rapidly reducing T&C's and flogging the crews to a very early retirement.
Shaggy
I wouldn't be surprised if these players introduce self funded type rating schemes themselves in the near future if they see they can get away with it.
Hence the need for pilots to start declining the offer of buying a rating and obtaining a position based on your financial resources.
It seems ironic however that even attractive outfits such as Emirates is going downhill rapidly reducing T&C's and flogging the crews to a very early retirement.
Shaggy
obtaining a position based on your financial resources.
Any average human with high levels of self motivation, average intelligence and hand eye co-ordination can become a commercial pilot. The ATPL exams seem to sort a few out hence the now discredited practise of heading to the US for a quick FAA ATPL and then convert it to an Oz ATPL.
So one of the main factors that comes into play for those who would like to become commercial pilots surely is their financial resources? We all know of aspiring pilots who work two jobs, scrimp and save, drive thirty year old cars and generally live a careful lifestyle in order to save funds for their training.
One of the major motivators for pilots to aspire to the airlines has been money & lifestyle. If they now have to fork out again to get that then they will. Supply & demand wins every time.
The ability to go to university now is also based to a large degree on financial resources. Forget about HECS even. How do you pay rent, eat and run the required vehicle whilst at university without working so many hours that it inteferes with your study?
I don't like it but my thoughts and yours do not matter. Business makes decisions that are best for them in the same way pilots make decisions that are best for themselves.
Someone has made the point elsewhere that when the career of airline pilot loses much of its' attraction then the numbers enrolling at flying schools will dwindle and supply and demand will make a correction. I believe that this slow down at the entry level is already happening.
There are also other factors generally reducing the interest of young children in aeroplanes. No more flight deck visits, tech crew less likely to do a cabin walk through, places like YSBK closing observation areas, the "flying bomb" link to terrorism paints aviation with negative images, more glamorous white collar jobs that pay more. Look at the huge growth in MBA courses!
One final thought... how low could QF or Cathay salaries drop before it really had a meaningful impact on recruitment? There my friend is the future!
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Patience
Be patient..the pendulum is beginning to swing the other way.Its too late if you are over 50 you have probably seen and had the best of it.If you are over 30 and under 45 ..your time is coming.The next 5 years will be both exciting and interesting.You will however need to be both astute and intuitive.My father was a Commercial pilot.He and his colleagues spent hours over BBQ's trying to predict the future of aviation in this country.This was back in the late 70's(and well before 89) So far they have been pretty close to the money...technology,politics,greed,arrogance,short sightedness and loss of mutual respect and comraderie have all played a part in the evolution of the present.
In our neck of the woods(Asia)growth in travel will be enormous over the next 10 years .With the growth of the middle classes,paricularly in China and India there will be a shortage of both capacity and drivers.The opportunities will abound..just don't screw it up!!(for yourselves and those who follow)
In our neck of the woods(Asia)growth in travel will be enormous over the next 10 years .With the growth of the middle classes,paricularly in China and India there will be a shortage of both capacity and drivers.The opportunities will abound..just don't screw it up!!(for yourselves and those who follow)
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You could drop salaries to near zero, and recruitment would still thrive. However, retention would plummet. Nobody would stay longer than it took them to find a better job.
Now here is a question for you: why do Aussies insist on calling pilots "tech crew"? Now that is a b*llsh*t phrase if ever I heard one. Pilots are pilots, apart from Captains of course, who are God.
Now here is a question for you: why do Aussies insist on calling pilots "tech crew"? Now that is a b*llsh*t phrase if ever I heard one. Pilots are pilots, apart from Captains of course, who are God.
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Sorry guys, but to my mind if you wish to make money in this world there are a couple of ways (essentially) to do it:
* work in the finance industry (money makes money after all!)
* start your own business (lots of risk)
* upskill yourself to the point of being invaluable/essential (lots of cost/effort to yourself)
* be born into priviledge
* smoke pole
At the end of the day, everybody in society is required to whore themselves to their employer (true, don't like it: move to a Communist Utopia like North Korea)
Why are pilots so different by being required to pay for their professional development? So what if certain employers are willing to pay for the employees to gain extra qualifications... power to them. I guess they don't operate in an industry where the marketplace is flush with applicants who are willing to screw others to look after themselves. I to be honest, I find all this discussion of "scabs" to be rather offensive. Striking and unionised behavior is for workforces that lack the ability to intelligently negotiate and debate an issue. Surely the Australian public isn't trusting their lives to people who do not even poses this most basic of skills?
* work in the finance industry (money makes money after all!)
* start your own business (lots of risk)
* upskill yourself to the point of being invaluable/essential (lots of cost/effort to yourself)
* be born into priviledge
* smoke pole
At the end of the day, everybody in society is required to whore themselves to their employer (true, don't like it: move to a Communist Utopia like North Korea)
Why are pilots so different by being required to pay for their professional development? So what if certain employers are willing to pay for the employees to gain extra qualifications... power to them. I guess they don't operate in an industry where the marketplace is flush with applicants who are willing to screw others to look after themselves. I to be honest, I find all this discussion of "scabs" to be rather offensive. Striking and unionised behavior is for workforces that lack the ability to intelligently negotiate and debate an issue. Surely the Australian public isn't trusting their lives to people who do not even poses this most basic of skills?
I'm guessing you made it to the top through your ability to:
?
Sure sounds like you're looking for a management office to me....
* smoke pole
Sure sounds like you're looking for a management office to me....
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Striking and unionised behavior is for workforces that lack the ability to intelligently negotiate and debate an issue. Surely the Australian public isn't trusting their lives to people who do not even poses this most basic of skills?
applicants who are willing to screw others to look after themselves.
One of the problems is that companies who upskill their employees expect increasingly high levels of commitment and return. Thus a highly trained "whatever" is expected to make stupendous amounts of money and, in return, get paid many times their investment in training - often in the first two or three years. Heart attacks and burnout come later.
Pilots are expected to, you know... not crash. It doesn't matter how well you don't crash, the company doesn't make any more money. Nor do you.
Now why do we do this again...???
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Johhny Utah
Sorry mate, but the gay and lesbian the Mardi Gras isn't on until Saturday night.
Shame isn't it, but reality hurts. I wasn't trying to be facetious, it's just that life supports those who are willing to feign interest in others. Perhaps understanding the mindset of management will allow you to negotiate with them better?
Just out of interest, what's wrong with being "management"? Somebody has to decide how the business will be run, could you do a better job?
Sorry mate, but the gay and lesbian the Mardi Gras isn't on until Saturday night.
Shame isn't it, but reality hurts. I wasn't trying to be facetious, it's just that life supports those who are willing to feign interest in others. Perhaps understanding the mindset of management will allow you to negotiate with them better?
Just out of interest, what's wrong with being "management"? Somebody has to decide how the business will be run, could you do a better job?
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Piss-a-Frozo,
You obviously can't be worrking as a pilot.. you're post has to be the lowest peice of trash seen on D&G for a long time.
Pilots pay to get themselve qualified as pilots and not subsidise a major airline's training bill.
Ryanair contractors now pay for their hotels down-route as well as their recurrent simm, uniform etc etc. How many other occupations have to do that? Ryanair has a billion Euros in the bank (so they say), it's easy to see why.
You obviously can't be worrking as a pilot.. you're post has to be the lowest peice of trash seen on D&G for a long time.
Pilots pay to get themselve qualified as pilots and not subsidise a major airline's training bill.
Ryanair contractors now pay for their hotels down-route as well as their recurrent simm, uniform etc etc. How many other occupations have to do that? Ryanair has a billion Euros in the bank (so they say), it's easy to see why.
Point0Five
I agree that there has to be some form of management within an airline; however, there seems to be an over abundance of managers who lack any real 'managerial skills' or leadership. This can be seen in the reliance on cutting costs as the sole method of increasing profits - surely managers are paid handsomely to come up ideas that are more innovative than simply slash and burn...
I'd suggest that many of the current problems afflicting our profession can be traced back to similar attitudes as the one that you have displayed in your recent posts. You seem as though you would be quite happy to 'sell out' others within your peer group to advantage yourself - even if it was to the detriment of your profession as a whole.
As for the Mardi Gras comment - playing the man, not the ball.....?
I agree that there has to be some form of management within an airline; however, there seems to be an over abundance of managers who lack any real 'managerial skills' or leadership. This can be seen in the reliance on cutting costs as the sole method of increasing profits - surely managers are paid handsomely to come up ideas that are more innovative than simply slash and burn...
I'd suggest that many of the current problems afflicting our profession can be traced back to similar attitudes as the one that you have displayed in your recent posts. You seem as though you would be quite happy to 'sell out' others within your peer group to advantage yourself - even if it was to the detriment of your profession as a whole.
As for the Mardi Gras comment - playing the man, not the ball.....?
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Pass-a-frozo,
Sorry about that. Had my beer goggles on..
Still I don't think pilots should subsidise the training bill of their employer.
Before the likes of Ryanair it wasn't even considered by anyone trying for a jet job, yet now it is becomming the norm and you agree with it..why?
Charging for jet ratings and line training has become a money making propect for some European operators in addition to reducing thier cost base. You're right about not making money as a pilot.
PS. What's a frozo?
Shaggy
Sorry about that. Had my beer goggles on..
Still I don't think pilots should subsidise the training bill of their employer.
Before the likes of Ryanair it wasn't even considered by anyone trying for a jet job, yet now it is becomming the norm and you agree with it..why?
Charging for jet ratings and line training has become a money making propect for some European operators in addition to reducing thier cost base. You're right about not making money as a pilot.
PS. What's a frozo?
Shaggy