QF from Frankfurt
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Icarus2001
Doesn't that also reveal the real problem?
Why isn't there more capacity on that route then?
If you are adjusting schedules or types to maintain full aircraft then by definition you are missing out on a definable amount of traffic apart from p!ssing off your regular clients who did not have the foresight to book 2 weeks in advance and maybe decide to take pot luck with whoever is available on the day or worse no go or be able to go.
Ergo: you are full up with cheap seats and your yield goes out the window.
Enter Jetstar where you can p!ss everybody off equally, to contain the revenue bleeding.
Need I go on.
When I were a lad the basic principle behind the granting of an RPT license was that the Govt licensed a carrier or carriers across a given route in accordance with the capacity a condition of which was that you were required to fly at the advertised times with a reasonable chance of there being seats available up to the time of departure, win lose or draw. You then constructed your fares accordingly and sold off excess capacity on an opportunity basis only.
If we are going to throw that idea out the window and make the whole thing open to any airline who cares to step up and take the finite risk that they'll ALL go broke on it and we all have to go back to driving
, then perhaps the Government should go back to monitoring the capacity and manage the route load factor to say =< 67%. What price to the nation otherwise.
The other issue that has so far not been defined is how much of the business world decides out of sheer frustration to do it by conference call or videomeeting because it is just too hard.
Belts, watches wallets and shoes off walk through the thingy holding up you trousers
, some lout in the shell suit or mother with the whining child next to you,
disenchanted cabin crew.
Lets try "J" class then, we have to go to this really important meeting, oh sorry no seats, how about tomorrow night.
We have actually just come round in a big circle to find that the Oz market is still only big enough for two to make money with maybe room for a third LCC (Jet*)
Mr Corrigan gets it right when he says Virgin have to lift their revenue beyond where they are if they are to survive. Why should his or indeed QF shareholders subsidise our travel.
We do not have a right to $69 fares say PER/MEL.
GOD and the fairy Godmother do really need to study the history of deregulation in the US for the lessons in trying to be a Premium and LCC at once and the Perils of Pauline in the HP case if they think that the brand name on its own is the beginning and the end without the product that made it so standing behind.
Harvard Business School has a a lot to answer for.
Just because you found it hard to make a booking shows the popularity of the route.
Why isn't there more capacity on that route then?
If you are adjusting schedules or types to maintain full aircraft then by definition you are missing out on a definable amount of traffic apart from p!ssing off your regular clients who did not have the foresight to book 2 weeks in advance and maybe decide to take pot luck with whoever is available on the day or worse no go or be able to go.
Ergo: you are full up with cheap seats and your yield goes out the window.
Enter Jetstar where you can p!ss everybody off equally, to contain the revenue bleeding.
Need I go on.
When I were a lad the basic principle behind the granting of an RPT license was that the Govt licensed a carrier or carriers across a given route in accordance with the capacity a condition of which was that you were required to fly at the advertised times with a reasonable chance of there being seats available up to the time of departure, win lose or draw. You then constructed your fares accordingly and sold off excess capacity on an opportunity basis only.
If we are going to throw that idea out the window and make the whole thing open to any airline who cares to step up and take the finite risk that they'll ALL go broke on it and we all have to go back to driving
, then perhaps the Government should go back to monitoring the capacity and manage the route load factor to say =< 67%. What price to the nation otherwise.The other issue that has so far not been defined is how much of the business world decides out of sheer frustration to do it by conference call or videomeeting because it is just too hard.
Belts, watches wallets and shoes off walk through the thingy holding up you trousers
, some lout in the shell suit or mother with the whining child next to you, disenchanted cabin crew.Lets try "J" class then, we have to go to this really important meeting, oh sorry no seats, how about tomorrow night.
We have actually just come round in a big circle to find that the Oz market is still only big enough for two to make money with maybe room for a third LCC (Jet*)
Mr Corrigan gets it right when he says Virgin have to lift their revenue beyond where they are if they are to survive. Why should his or indeed QF shareholders subsidise our travel.
We do not have a right to $69 fares say PER/MEL.
GOD and the fairy Godmother do really need to study the history of deregulation in the US for the lessons in trying to be a Premium and LCC at once and the Perils of Pauline in the HP case if they think that the brand name on its own is the beginning and the end without the product that made it so standing behind.
Harvard Business School has a a lot to answer for.
Gaunty, the problem is we can theorise all we like but without the data to analyse we do not have the full picture. Do you really think QF would NOT put on more flights if the loads (and yields) were good? An obvious observation would be that it is better to fly one aircraft full four times a week than partly full seven times a week.
There has been so much armchair commentary, I think we need to assume that management A) Have a strategy and B) Know what they are doing.
We on PPRUNE cannot hope to know all the variables. As an example the decision on NJS/Jetstar for the B717 work. One would have thought that with the type and number of people who populate these forums we would have known a little before an official company press release but we did not.
GOD obviously generates a lot of antagonism but let him do his job. If the board and or shareholders view his actions harshly then they will deal with him. Yes he is overpaid and yes he will parachute out with a bucket of money. Like a good deal of CEOs.
Posters on PPRUNE like Sunfish can rant against him on various levels as they have but only QF management know what game they are playing and who is winning.
QF are making money and paying their way. If the service was truly awful all the time then it would affect KPIs and something would be done. For the record I have had good and bad on QF, SIA and Cathay. VB also varies a great deal depending on the group of FAs. Who has not been to a restaurant on different occasions and received greatly different service?
As to government control/monitoring of loads/routes well the brave new world of economic rationalism and capitalist theory rules at present so no goverment of either persuasion is going to jump in. Interesting to see that over in the West the State government has "protected" some routes. I would think this would be found to be illegal if challenged but who wants to compete on thin routes anyway? Didn't WA miss out on competition payments worth multi millions of dollars because they would not deregulate shopping hours? They were happy to miss out on the dosh to follow an ideology (or maybe small business votes!) But I digress.
QF has competition on international routes and does okay so I don't think you can really ask...
That just about sums it up. The East coast has room for a Jetstar and other regionals. Even Jetstar with the deep QF pockets behind them have been very tentative about leaving the J curve. The only change may be newer types coming on to the market that would allow previously unviable operations to pop up.
I believe you have been in the Real Estate industry for some years? Supply and demand operates freely in this industry with plenty of builders going broke and owing contractors. Government control is limited to land release and interest rates isn't it. Life goes on.
Yes I agree but QF and Ansett were not entitled to $1500 Perth - Sydney either? The pendulum ALWAYS swings too far in one direction before gravity overcomes inertia and we return closer to the middle ground.
There has been so much armchair commentary, I think we need to assume that management A) Have a strategy and B) Know what they are doing.
We on PPRUNE cannot hope to know all the variables. As an example the decision on NJS/Jetstar for the B717 work. One would have thought that with the type and number of people who populate these forums we would have known a little before an official company press release but we did not.
GOD obviously generates a lot of antagonism but let him do his job. If the board and or shareholders view his actions harshly then they will deal with him. Yes he is overpaid and yes he will parachute out with a bucket of money. Like a good deal of CEOs.
Posters on PPRUNE like Sunfish can rant against him on various levels as they have but only QF management know what game they are playing and who is winning.
QF are making money and paying their way. If the service was truly awful all the time then it would affect KPIs and something would be done. For the record I have had good and bad on QF, SIA and Cathay. VB also varies a great deal depending on the group of FAs. Who has not been to a restaurant on different occasions and received greatly different service?
As to government control/monitoring of loads/routes well the brave new world of economic rationalism and capitalist theory rules at present so no goverment of either persuasion is going to jump in. Interesting to see that over in the West the State government has "protected" some routes. I would think this would be found to be illegal if challenged but who wants to compete on thin routes anyway? Didn't WA miss out on competition payments worth multi millions of dollars because they would not deregulate shopping hours? They were happy to miss out on the dosh to follow an ideology (or maybe small business votes!) But I digress.
QF has competition on international routes and does okay so I don't think you can really ask...
how much of the business world decides out of sheer frustration to do it by conference call or videomeeting because it is just too hard.
We have actually just come round in a big circle to find that the Oz market is still only big enough for two to make money with maybe room for a third LCC (Jet*)
I believe you have been in the Real Estate industry for some years? Supply and demand operates freely in this industry with plenty of builders going broke and owing contractors. Government control is limited to land release and interest rates isn't it. Life goes on.
We do not have a right to $69 fares say PER/MEL.
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Are we pulling out of FRA ? I suggest that that the people who will tell you before anyone else will are the hotel staff, worked for me in SFO nearly two months before an "official " announcement was made.
Cheers.
Cheers.
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Yes Icarus management may have a strategy, but they sure as hell don't communicate it to the troops. With stagnant revenue for the last two years and the only real changes being the savage cost cutting undertaken by GD, I want them to communicate the long term strategic plan to their people. If they continue to lack a basic vision, continue to cost cut I would suggest they are simply short term focused on their hip pocket..
So to return to Frankfurt, with an aircraft going every day, that is pretty close to chock-a-block in either direction, how come it doesn't make money?
Funnily enough Rome had excellent loads as well. Try and find out what actually prompted the decision and you are stonewalled...
It is the contention that the cost is being loaded back to mainline. From training to personnel, to borrowed equipment who knows what else. They want me to believe a full 747-400 doesn't make money then show me why. Again I assert it is because of COST APPORTIONMENT. Study the available financial information, the information is presented as QF mainline and then group, no breakdown of individual entities. Last year GD stated he wanted to see how individual segments operated...I want to see how the costs are recorded at J* or AO. Till then the crap espoused about the legacy carrier that we are is just that
So to return to Frankfurt, with an aircraft going every day, that is pretty close to chock-a-block in either direction, how come it doesn't make money?
Funnily enough Rome had excellent loads as well. Try and find out what actually prompted the decision and you are stonewalled...
It is the contention that the cost is being loaded back to mainline. From training to personnel, to borrowed equipment who knows what else. They want me to believe a full 747-400 doesn't make money then show me why. Again I assert it is because of COST APPORTIONMENT. Study the available financial information, the information is presented as QF mainline and then group, no breakdown of individual entities. Last year GD stated he wanted to see how individual segments operated...I want to see how the costs are recorded at J* or AO. Till then the crap espoused about the legacy carrier that we are is just that
Nunc est bibendum
...Rome had excellent loads as well. Try and find out what actually prompted the decision and you are stonewalled...
Lets hope the next 3-10 weeks brings an announcement about how we're going to do that!
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Icarus2001
Airline economics 101; 1st Law, Freqency, freqency, freqency. If you follow your hypothesis there will be a reduction in total numbers, that is a statistical fact of life.
Bit like the Real estate business opf location location location eh, BTW, so there is no confusion my family have been and still are in the real estate and construction business since the 1870's my brothers and I are the 4 th generation.
, is exactly what the analysts and the late great?? Andersons Accounting firm said about Enron. There is an ex airline example even closer to home.
I can guarantee you that this was not so, but hey there are of the type and number of people who populate these forums some who would actually understand the extreme sensitivity of the negotiations.
I must check with Ms Condoleeza for the goss on the latest negotiaions.
see above PPRuNe is monitored closely by those in the know.
As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.,
if you are a QF insider or apologist then we are in trouble. I don't get paid if I have a bad hair days or I'm not feeling up to it occasionally and it goes straight to the bottom line. Consistency and exceeding expectations are the difference between the merely good and truly great organisations. That goes straight to the bottom line too.
and they don't currently on international routes.??
it's all in the Australian Constitution old chap. TheCommonwealth can only have jurisdiction in interstate not intrastate, you should brush up your history on the East West story as an example.
The Commonwealth "Two Airlines Agreement" was exactly a "control" on capacity and scheduling originally to protect the huge foreign exchange investment required to bring Australia into the jet age when Qantas, thankfully, dug their heels in and insisted on the Boeing (who wanted cash on the barrelhead) product against the Motherlands Heath Robinson contraptions with no cash down and interest free for the first 200years.
The worlds largest aviation user the US had similar controls for quite different reasons but it all came down to safety which is inextricably and fundamentally linked with the economics.
One can only guess where we would now be if they had not done so. I only am certain that we would not be as far up the road as we are today.
The original concept got sorta out of focus before they finally repealed it with deregulation.
I was not in this instance referring to International which in any event is capapcity controlled by the Contracting (international) States for that very reason.
close but no cigar.
I have been in that industry my entire life.
I have also been in the aviation business for the better part of my working life.
Some would observe that the similarities between the two are scary, it is not, they are both service industries with the same problems and the same proportion of dumbasses on both sides of their check in counters.
"plenty of builders going broke and owing contractors." exactly like the 'dodgy brothers' in the aviation industry.
Except the building industry sought and gained from Government more economic regulation of 'dodgy bros' builders not less.
The Government don't "control" land release on a capacity basis, they are tasked in fact to encourage and reduce the "red tape" for more developments to meet whatever demand is generated. The capacity is currently something like 18 months to 2 years behind the demand, not Government control just the market demand exceeds the developers capacity, here at least.
Interest rates, are a global factor and do not have any more or less effect buiding industry than any other.
well, in the context of the schedule requirements and obligations to service all of the long thin and uneconomic routes that came with the "protection" they were. So now we have cherry picking and the loss of many routes to areas that are now significantly socially disadvantaged.
Australia is a hard taskmaster in geographical and demographic terms in any industry it is absolutely brutal on aviation.
We learned all these lessons nearly 50 years ago why do we continue to have to relearn them
An obvious observation would be that it is better to fly one aircraft full four times a week than partly full seven times a week.
Bit like the Real estate business opf location location location eh, BTW, so there is no confusion my family have been and still are in the real estate and construction business since the 1870's my brothers and I are the 4 th generation.
There has been so much armchair commentary, I think we need to assume that management A) Have a strategy and B) Know what they are doing.
We on PPRUNE cannot hope to know all the variables. As an example the decision on NJS/Jetstar for the B717 work. One would have thought that with the type and number of people who populate these forums we would have known a little before an official company press release but we did not.
I must check with Ms Condoleeza for the goss on the latest negotiaions.
Posters on PPRUNE like Sunfish can rant against him on various levels as they have but only QF management know what game they are playing and who is winning.
As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.,
QF are making money and paying their way. If the service was truly awful all the time then it would affect KPIs and something would be done. For the record I have had good and bad on QF, SIA and Cathay. VB also varies a great deal depending on the group of FAs. Who has not been to a restaurant on different occasions and received greatly different service?
As to government control/monitoring of loads/routes well the brave new world of economic rationalism and capitalist theory rules at present so no goverment of either persuasion is going to jump in.
Interesting to see that over in the West the State government has "protected" some routes. I would think this would be found to be illegal if challenged but who wants to compete on thin routes anyway?
The Commonwealth "Two Airlines Agreement" was exactly a "control" on capacity and scheduling originally to protect the huge foreign exchange investment required to bring Australia into the jet age when Qantas, thankfully
, dug their heels in and insisted on the Boeing (who wanted cash on the barrelhead) product against the Motherlands Heath Robinson contraptions with no cash down and interest free for the first 200years. The worlds largest aviation user the US had similar controls for quite different reasons but it all came down to safety which is inextricably and fundamentally linked with the economics.
One can only guess where we would now be if they had not done so. I only am certain that we would not be as far up the road as we are today.
The original concept got sorta out of focus before they finally repealed it with deregulation.
QF has competition on international routes and does okay
I believe you have been in the Real Estate industry for some years? Supply and demand operates freely in this industry with plenty of builders going broke and owing contractors. Government control is limited to land release and interest rates isn't it. Life goes on.
I have been in that industry my entire life.
I have also been in the aviation business for the better part of my working life.
Some would observe that the similarities between the two are scary, it is not, they are both service industries with the same problems and the same proportion of dumbasses on both sides of their check in counters.
"plenty of builders going broke and owing contractors." exactly like the 'dodgy brothers' in the aviation industry.
Except the building industry sought and gained from Government more economic regulation of 'dodgy bros' builders not less.
The Government don't "control" land release on a capacity basis, they are tasked in fact to encourage and reduce the "red tape" for more developments to meet whatever demand is generated. The capacity is currently something like 18 months to 2 years behind the demand, not Government control just the market demand exceeds the developers capacity, here at least.
Interest rates, are a global factor and do not have any more or less effect buiding industry than any other.
Yes I agree but QF and Ansett were not entitled to $1500 Perth - Sydney either?
Australia is a hard taskmaster in geographical and demographic terms in any industry it is absolutely brutal on aviation.
We learned all these lessons nearly 50 years ago why do we continue to have to relearn them
Last edited by gaunty; 12th Feb 2005 at 01:57.
Icarus, I can't answer your posts because I don't have access to the load factors.
I've looked at the U.S. and British websites. From New York, Sydney is often 12 hours closer and $200 cheaper to get to than Melbourne.
From London there is QF9 and 10, but unless you book well in advance my understanding is that these aircraft are always full!
I have lost count of the number of U.S., European and British friends and business associates who have commented on how hard it was for them to get here compared to Sydney.
I've looked at the U.S. and British websites. From New York, Sydney is often 12 hours closer and $200 cheaper to get to than Melbourne.
From London there is QF9 and 10, but unless you book well in advance my understanding is that these aircraft are always full!
I have lost count of the number of U.S., European and British friends and business associates who have commented on how hard it was for them to get here compared to Sydney.
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Sunny
The web sites are limited in their ability to read multi sector availabilites, or check by sectors as we can and build the same beastie for a far lower price. Apart from busy periods such as Chinese New Year, school hols when all the foreign students are going back and forth and other abberations, the QF 9 and 10 birds are generally saleable. It they are not, there are numerous combinations that you can use within Oneworld including the BA side of codeshares, or a straight transfer to BA or BA all the way. Many ways to skin honourable cat. The web based engines are very literal and cannot handle this. A lot of people spend a lot of money they do not need to thinking tha "is web? is good."
They eventually learn.
Interestingly I got a call from a friend locally who had 2 rels travelling J from London to Auckland with a stop in Australia and some side trips while they were here. I was confident I would get smashed by local fares available in the UK market, but - bugger me - my quote on EK came in thousands under their local quotes. What in hell is going on here? Am i missing something? I pulled a full 9% on published EK fares and won. Something is seriously wrong in that marketplace.
As for FRA bikkie - I feel you will see a code share agreement with the Luftwaffe being touted shortly. The fact they are Star Alliance carries little creed as the code share with Air France which is up and running is a combo of One World and Skyteam.
It is pretty clear that QF do not want staff - farm off your accounting to Fiji, sales checking to the UK - move staff to London, drop routes to low cost alternatives. it is bloody clear felling at the moment.
Our debit memos (Notice of a deduction from our weekly IATA statement due to disputed coding or taxes or recall of commission on a refunded credit card sale) are arriving in envelopes postmarked Surrey in the UK.
Thank you for calling Qantas reservation - Rajih speaking.
Best all
EWL
The web sites are limited in their ability to read multi sector availabilites, or check by sectors as we can and build the same beastie for a far lower price. Apart from busy periods such as Chinese New Year, school hols when all the foreign students are going back and forth and other abberations, the QF 9 and 10 birds are generally saleable. It they are not, there are numerous combinations that you can use within Oneworld including the BA side of codeshares, or a straight transfer to BA or BA all the way. Many ways to skin honourable cat. The web based engines are very literal and cannot handle this. A lot of people spend a lot of money they do not need to thinking tha "is web? is good."
They eventually learn.
Interestingly I got a call from a friend locally who had 2 rels travelling J from London to Auckland with a stop in Australia and some side trips while they were here. I was confident I would get smashed by local fares available in the UK market, but - bugger me - my quote on EK came in thousands under their local quotes. What in hell is going on here? Am i missing something? I pulled a full 9% on published EK fares and won. Something is seriously wrong in that marketplace.
As for FRA bikkie - I feel you will see a code share agreement with the Luftwaffe being touted shortly. The fact they are Star Alliance carries little creed as the code share with Air France which is up and running is a combo of One World and Skyteam.
It is pretty clear that QF do not want staff - farm off your accounting to Fiji, sales checking to the UK - move staff to London, drop routes to low cost alternatives. it is bloody clear felling at the moment.
Our debit memos (Notice of a deduction from our weekly IATA statement due to disputed coding or taxes or recall of commission on a refunded credit card sale) are arriving in envelopes postmarked Surrey in the UK.
Thank you for calling Qantas reservation - Rajih speaking.
Best all
EWL
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New destinations
Well Mr.Boeing I hope you are right, however I think in the current environment they are rationing everything including milk in the fridges..
Makes perfect sense to announce new ports, soend money developing them and leave a port that makes money...
It is the cost apportionment that makes all the ports "unsustainable" they won't reveal what the other entities pay to borrow infrastructure, people etc.
New flights will be additonal slots to LA to milk the route before SIA get on it.
Oh and to be creative they may have an extra flight to london.
Ain't much of a strategy is it?
Makes perfect sense to announce new ports, soend money developing them and leave a port that makes money...
It is the cost apportionment that makes all the ports "unsustainable" they won't reveal what the other entities pay to borrow infrastructure, people etc.
New flights will be additonal slots to LA to milk the route before SIA get on it.
Oh and to be creative they may have an extra flight to london.
Ain't much of a strategy is it?
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mach 2 male,
Delhi and Calcutta wooopy do..been done before and pulled out of too..
Returning to the original post, why are they pulling out of Frankfurt, a profitable stable return for the last x years?
The answer is cost apportionment. Mainline is loaded with cost that belongs elsewhere in the group. A jumbo full of passengers so full of costs belonging elsewhere it hardly can fly.
The constant sh$t might get some down, not me.. Their insistence on return on assets not occuring is lame when they dont publish the figures...
Delhi and Calcutta wooopy do..been done before and pulled out of too..
Returning to the original post, why are they pulling out of Frankfurt, a profitable stable return for the last x years?
The answer is cost apportionment. Mainline is loaded with cost that belongs elsewhere in the group. A jumbo full of passengers so full of costs belonging elsewhere it hardly can fly.
The constant sh$t might get some down, not me.. Their insistence on return on assets not occuring is lame when they dont publish the figures...
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So are we absolutely sure that QF is pulling out of FRA? Or at this stage is it all hearsay/Fatties gossip (nothing wrong with that either, but somewhat different from being a 'done deal')?
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Sunny
I have not started a topic regarding Fright Centre, as that would have been blatant bad management practise.
One does or should not start a witchhunt against a direct competitor. Very bad form.
I did reply to a forum that made specific reference to the ACCC action and where I was invited to comment.
Not for one second do I state that I held back what I really think, but that is just the bloke I am.
If you call me for a booking Suny, I will give it my best shot as always. Thanks for thinking of me.
QFinie and others - the sub continent routes are incredibly high yield, and SQ will be copping the brunt of load losses with any operator going in direct. It is very hard to get a seat at any time of the year into India.
Oh - and as an aside which has probably been mentioned elsewhere anyway, AO anounced today they are hauling out of Kota Kinabalu Sabah - that lastd well..... not!!
Shames as the passengers we sent there on AO enjoyed the inflight experience.
Best all
EWL
I have not started a topic regarding Fright Centre, as that would have been blatant bad management practise.
One does or should not start a witchhunt against a direct competitor. Very bad form.
I did reply to a forum that made specific reference to the ACCC action and where I was invited to comment.
Not for one second do I state that I held back what I really think, but that is just the bloke I am.
If you call me for a booking Suny, I will give it my best shot as always. Thanks for thinking of me.
QFinie and others - the sub continent routes are incredibly high yield, and SQ will be copping the brunt of load losses with any operator going in direct. It is very hard to get a seat at any time of the year into India.
Oh - and as an aside which has probably been mentioned elsewhere anyway, AO anounced today they are hauling out of Kota Kinabalu Sabah - that lastd well..... not!!
Shames as the passengers we sent there on AO enjoyed the inflight experience.
Best all
EWL