Branson's new Aussie flight plan
Umm the issue is one of free markets and market forces.
Qantas is an effective monopoly that operates under an exemption from the ACCC. Air capacity is subject to intergovernment regulation in the interests of maintaining a stable air transport service to and from all countries involved.
There is always tension in such a situation because airlines will always scream at allowing new entrants and economists will allays scream at cartels.
In my opinion, now that Qantas is becoming less Australian in character, and is fast losing its iconic status, as well as the fact that anyone (even Richard Branson) can build and operate an airline, there is room for more competition and less regulation of capacity.
Qantas is an effective monopoly that operates under an exemption from the ACCC. Air capacity is subject to intergovernment regulation in the interests of maintaining a stable air transport service to and from all countries involved.
There is always tension in such a situation because airlines will always scream at allowing new entrants and economists will allays scream at cartels.
In my opinion, now that Qantas is becoming less Australian in character, and is fast losing its iconic status, as well as the fact that anyone (even Richard Branson) can build and operate an airline, there is room for more competition and less regulation of capacity.
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The good thing about that article, DJ, is that "Harbison" hasn't yet been correct with any of his aviation predictions. I'm quite frankly surprised that the media still listen to him.
But we know why YOU listen to him DJ. He fuels your hatred of QF. Turned down by QF were we, hmmmm?
But we know why YOU listen to him DJ. He fuels your hatred of QF. Turned down by QF were we, hmmmm?
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Bugsmashing,
You are spot on when you say that most frontline QF staff are still proud of THEIR company and want to see it do well. We too, see the danger in the current management tactic of no-holds-barred cost reduction - a reputation has no face value, but it is very expensive to restore if destroyed.
What is so frustrating currently is that:
If the airline makes a profit, managers get big bonuses - management wins.
If staff try to keep their current conditions, GOD cries poor, we take a wage freeze - management wins.
The airline then makes a bigger profit, managers get bigger bonuses - management wins.
The QF board meets and suggests bigger salary packages for the managers, the institututional investors vote for it - management wins.
Staff threaten industrial action to get a fair go, management accuses them of "holding a gun to the head of the travelling public". This is widely reported in the media - management wins.
To cut costs, management set up LCCs and employ people prepared to work for far less than their contemporaries to get a toehold in this fabulous industry - management wins.
The airline then makes a bigger profit, managers get bigger bonuses - management wins.
To cut costs, the product goes to s&*t, passengers are upset but the airline makes a bigger profit, managers get bigger bonuses - management wins.
The travelling public eventually get sick of the product and travel on other carriers, QF disappears - the managers retire, the staff lose.
I really wish that all those who are concerned about QF would write a letter to the QF board and explain their concerns. If the board got a lot of letters and a reduction in business, maybe they'd get the message. Unfortunately, it is usually the frontline staff (who are all too aware of the problems) who have to face the disgruntled public.
You are spot on when you say that most frontline QF staff are still proud of THEIR company and want to see it do well. We too, see the danger in the current management tactic of no-holds-barred cost reduction - a reputation has no face value, but it is very expensive to restore if destroyed.
What is so frustrating currently is that:
If the airline makes a profit, managers get big bonuses - management wins.
If staff try to keep their current conditions, GOD cries poor, we take a wage freeze - management wins.
The airline then makes a bigger profit, managers get bigger bonuses - management wins.
The QF board meets and suggests bigger salary packages for the managers, the institututional investors vote for it - management wins.
Staff threaten industrial action to get a fair go, management accuses them of "holding a gun to the head of the travelling public". This is widely reported in the media - management wins.
To cut costs, management set up LCCs and employ people prepared to work for far less than their contemporaries to get a toehold in this fabulous industry - management wins.
The airline then makes a bigger profit, managers get bigger bonuses - management wins.
To cut costs, the product goes to s&*t, passengers are upset but the airline makes a bigger profit, managers get bigger bonuses - management wins.
The travelling public eventually get sick of the product and travel on other carriers, QF disappears - the managers retire, the staff lose.
I really wish that all those who are concerned about QF would write a letter to the QF board and explain their concerns. If the board got a lot of letters and a reduction in business, maybe they'd get the message. Unfortunately, it is usually the frontline staff (who are all too aware of the problems) who have to face the disgruntled public.
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Remember the days fellas economic theory worked? It is a theory. Yes increased competition will yield short term gain, but it never lasts because markets aren't perfect.
Having spent much time on the island state, i would be treading very carefully. You shake hands, check you still got your watch.
three bars is spot on.
Don't mix us up with the crap going on at QF. The visitors(management) don't care, we do. Our livelihoods and those of our families depend on it.
The family at QF grow angrier by the day...
And the next day we just feel sad
Having spent much time on the island state, i would be treading very carefully. You shake hands, check you still got your watch.
three bars is spot on.
Don't mix us up with the crap going on at QF. The visitors(management) don't care, we do. Our livelihoods and those of our families depend on it.
The family at QF grow angrier by the day...
And the next day we just feel sad
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Too simplistic?
Three bars,Qfinsider and so on,
if Q employees are so worried as so many have attested to on this site, why haven't they "enmasse" taken significant industrial action ie: ALL unions involved have banded together and worked towards stopping the erosion of entitlements?
Every time I see a post on PPRUNE in regards to what is happening at Qantas, it usually ends up with "two weeks training and now they're earning 90k a year" or " don't trust those mexicans, and what the hell do they know about fixing international aircraft" or "SOs get far too much for just twiddling some buttons and getting the beer ready for the bus trip" or " why should desk workers get 10% fares" or " I'm sick and tired of those limp wristed fairies giving me attitude" or " jetstar boys n girls can't even pass the pegs and blocks test and now they're threatening MY seniorioty" (or add easterns, sunstate, whatever) or "Dixon is taking what he can'....the list goes on.
If you people can see what is going on (it's common knowledge in the financial markets, go and watch the "Wall St" movie again!) and haven't done anything about it and still insist on bitching about one another then I'd suggest that the reasons for Dixon and co's being able to do what they're doing can be in a major way be attributed back to yourselves.
Harsh words I know but can anyone argue with that?
Handing over
if Q employees are so worried as so many have attested to on this site, why haven't they "enmasse" taken significant industrial action ie: ALL unions involved have banded together and worked towards stopping the erosion of entitlements?
Every time I see a post on PPRUNE in regards to what is happening at Qantas, it usually ends up with "two weeks training and now they're earning 90k a year" or " don't trust those mexicans, and what the hell do they know about fixing international aircraft" or "SOs get far too much for just twiddling some buttons and getting the beer ready for the bus trip" or " why should desk workers get 10% fares" or " I'm sick and tired of those limp wristed fairies giving me attitude" or " jetstar boys n girls can't even pass the pegs and blocks test and now they're threatening MY seniorioty" (or add easterns, sunstate, whatever) or "Dixon is taking what he can'....the list goes on.
If you people can see what is going on (it's common knowledge in the financial markets, go and watch the "Wall St" movie again!) and haven't done anything about it and still insist on bitching about one another then I'd suggest that the reasons for Dixon and co's being able to do what they're doing can be in a major way be attributed back to yourselves.
Harsh words I know but can anyone argue with that?
Handing over
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Bigfella,
There's a small thing in the way of what you are advocating and it's called Industrial Relations Legislation.
Protected industrial action can only take place in an EBA period. The laws are all firmly in favour of the employers and even keeping pace with inflation is difficult. This is definitely not the era of the 70s and 80s when unions could strike whenever they felt like it. Today, employers have workers believing that they are lucky to have a job and should be grateful for the crumbs that are thrown their way after all of the hard-working management team have taken their bonuses.
Our conditions of employment and working environment are under attack from every angle by beancounters in management. I still try to do my job as best I can, but I am under no misapprehension that I am anything to Qantas other than a drain on the bottom line. The fact that this affect on morale will inevitably damage Qantas does not matter a jot to the current management ethos which only cares about the shareholder (not employees or customers). The majority of Qantas' profit these days is as a result of cost-cutting, not yield.
When combined with the fact that half of the AIPA COM seems to be lining up for their own QF management job, there is little that can be done to ease the frustration other than venting on these forums. From the posts of others on these threads, for a variety of reasons and grievances, very few would grieve the loss of Qantas mainline (who are the only Australian employer still curently offering reasonable employment conditions in the aviation industry).
You are very misguided if you expect individuals to combine to take action outside of the due process. In the current climate, if individuals resigned or went on strike, there would be pilots falling over themselves to take our jobs at a much lower pay rate who would convince themselves that their actions were justified and that we were overpaid in the first place.
Personally, I hope for nothing more than to be able to keep the remaining conditions that I have until I retire in 15 years or so. I would hate to be a 20 year-old just starting out in this industry and I feel that the only way that pilot conditions will turn around is when the labour supply from GA and the flying training establishments in Australia begins to dry up.
The only bright light in recent times is the realistation by Corrigan that the low-fare war is killing everybody. What a stupid industry we are in when the last company to go broke wins the game!!!!!
There's a small thing in the way of what you are advocating and it's called Industrial Relations Legislation.
Protected industrial action can only take place in an EBA period. The laws are all firmly in favour of the employers and even keeping pace with inflation is difficult. This is definitely not the era of the 70s and 80s when unions could strike whenever they felt like it. Today, employers have workers believing that they are lucky to have a job and should be grateful for the crumbs that are thrown their way after all of the hard-working management team have taken their bonuses.
Our conditions of employment and working environment are under attack from every angle by beancounters in management. I still try to do my job as best I can, but I am under no misapprehension that I am anything to Qantas other than a drain on the bottom line. The fact that this affect on morale will inevitably damage Qantas does not matter a jot to the current management ethos which only cares about the shareholder (not employees or customers). The majority of Qantas' profit these days is as a result of cost-cutting, not yield.
When combined with the fact that half of the AIPA COM seems to be lining up for their own QF management job, there is little that can be done to ease the frustration other than venting on these forums. From the posts of others on these threads, for a variety of reasons and grievances, very few would grieve the loss of Qantas mainline (who are the only Australian employer still curently offering reasonable employment conditions in the aviation industry).
You are very misguided if you expect individuals to combine to take action outside of the due process. In the current climate, if individuals resigned or went on strike, there would be pilots falling over themselves to take our jobs at a much lower pay rate who would convince themselves that their actions were justified and that we were overpaid in the first place.
Personally, I hope for nothing more than to be able to keep the remaining conditions that I have until I retire in 15 years or so. I would hate to be a 20 year-old just starting out in this industry and I feel that the only way that pilot conditions will turn around is when the labour supply from GA and the flying training establishments in Australia begins to dry up.
The only bright light in recent times is the realistation by Corrigan that the low-fare war is killing everybody. What a stupid industry we are in when the last company to go broke wins the game!!!!!
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
A most excellent, and succint summary of the airline industry generally, worldwide at this time, Three Bars.
Substitute "QANTAS" for airline X, Y, or Z - the pillaging is the same.
The biggest THREAT to the survival of many airlines, and the future of the workers employed by them, is - imo - coming from WITHIN the companies themselves, by those at the top.
Management seem to view their positions as ones which can be taken advantage of, to reward themselves excessively at the expense of the workers in their charge, and eventually the company itself.
I only hope there will be some recourse to bringing these people to justice, once obvious failures occur.
They seem more like deliberately planned crashes, than crashed plans!
Substitute "QANTAS" for airline X, Y, or Z - the pillaging is the same.
The biggest THREAT to the survival of many airlines, and the future of the workers employed by them, is - imo - coming from WITHIN the companies themselves, by those at the top.
Management seem to view their positions as ones which can be taken advantage of, to reward themselves excessively at the expense of the workers in their charge, and eventually the company itself.
I only hope there will be some recourse to bringing these people to justice, once obvious failures occur.
They seem more like deliberately planned crashes, than crashed plans!
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Three bars,
Thanks for a straight forward and insightful answer. Seems that your saying what I'm thinking.
I don't believe that I'm misguided in advocating mass indutrial action whether it be direct or by stealth however, I guess that's another subject though.
It interests me that you imply the AIPA com are nothing more than self centred individuals lining up for a gravy train seat.
Would it be too much to ask exactly what is the role of that organisation? (how do you get on it,responsibilities and the like). I'm genuinely curious.
Cheers?
Thanks for a straight forward and insightful answer. Seems that your saying what I'm thinking.
I don't believe that I'm misguided in advocating mass indutrial action whether it be direct or by stealth however, I guess that's another subject though.
It interests me that you imply the AIPA com are nothing more than self centred individuals lining up for a gravy train seat.
Would it be too much to ask exactly what is the role of that organisation? (how do you get on it,responsibilities and the like). I'm genuinely curious.
Cheers?
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three bars
I am sorry to say that QF is finding more ways to shoot itself in the foot than I would have believed.
My agency sold around 1.8 million bucks worth of QF, but with the commission revision and fee for service mode; "we had to have", I will be lucky to sell 20% of that figure this year.
New Zealand has already gone to 1% commission - answer? - sell EK at 9% or NZ at 5 with flown revenue overide.
Global explorer and one world fares? 7% on QF - sell the AA side of the codeshare outbound over the pacific or CX or AY over Asia - again 9%.
South Africa? Easy - SAA side ot the codeshare.
Santiago? LA side of the codeshare.
Fiji - FJ flight number - etc etc.
Just because some Wally at QF (and I bet Wally da Wog had a hand in it too!) decides they know better doesn't mean we have to take it.
The sad bit is that we are endangering the jobs of mates by standing up for ourselves. I personally do not like that.
Best
EWL
I am sorry to say that QF is finding more ways to shoot itself in the foot than I would have believed.
My agency sold around 1.8 million bucks worth of QF, but with the commission revision and fee for service mode; "we had to have", I will be lucky to sell 20% of that figure this year.
New Zealand has already gone to 1% commission - answer? - sell EK at 9% or NZ at 5 with flown revenue overide.
Global explorer and one world fares? 7% on QF - sell the AA side of the codeshare outbound over the pacific or CX or AY over Asia - again 9%.
South Africa? Easy - SAA side ot the codeshare.
Santiago? LA side of the codeshare.
Fiji - FJ flight number - etc etc.
Just because some Wally at QF (and I bet Wally da Wog had a hand in it too!) decides they know better doesn't mean we have to take it.
The sad bit is that we are endangering the jobs of mates by standing up for ourselves. I personally do not like that.
Best
EWL
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This is a time in the Australasian/Pacific aviation arena where dark clouds seem to hover over the whole industry. With airlines competing for lower costs and higher yields, they can only reduce fixed costs so far, and the only tangible costs left are our livelyhoods. Jobs heading overseas, pilots and FA overworked and underpaid, jobs contracted out internally and externally, engineers replaced by contractors overseas, institutions complaining that record profits are still not enough or a down grade to $140m not enough. Its about time that the Jetstar, DJ, QF, QF link etc etc rivalry be forgotten and a unified work force gather with safety in numbers and fight this greed and insult upon our professionalism. I pose a question, why don't all our representatives pool resources and, drop their own agendas and fight the cancer that will see all of us potentialy soon watching our jobs fade away before our eyes. It's up to all of us to get motivated towards a common cause before its to late.
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It's too late already mate.
The cancer was caught in August 89 and it's in the bones now. Just a matter of how long till the patient dies and the way it's going the RIP sign will be up soon enough.
Just in QF there are so many factions that spend all their energy punching each other out. The union is a training ground for management so what hope is there. Bugger all.
The cancer was caught in August 89 and it's in the bones now. Just a matter of how long till the patient dies and the way it's going the RIP sign will be up soon enough.
Just in QF there are so many factions that spend all their energy punching each other out. The union is a training ground for management so what hope is there. Bugger all.
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Well, you wont see me there.
It was a few years ago that the penny dropped with me that the pilots in this country are incapable of unity. No suprise really. We couldn't keep it together in the real test 15 years ago and its a lot worse now.
The only solution imo was to use the current "good' conditions to start another source of income. I earn more in this now than in QF so I personally will be ok. Pilots will always earn "reasonable" dough when compared to secretaries and waiters but will work their guts out for it, a la jetstar. It's worlds best practice after all
You must be a young bloke dirty deeds who still has some idealism left.
It was a few years ago that the penny dropped with me that the pilots in this country are incapable of unity. No suprise really. We couldn't keep it together in the real test 15 years ago and its a lot worse now.
The only solution imo was to use the current "good' conditions to start another source of income. I earn more in this now than in QF so I personally will be ok. Pilots will always earn "reasonable" dough when compared to secretaries and waiters but will work their guts out for it, a la jetstar. It's worlds best practice after all
You must be a young bloke dirty deeds who still has some idealism left.
Props are for boats!
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I do agree with the fact that Qantas should get reciprocal rights out of Singapore. Those who say it wouldnt be beneficial are forgeting that Singapore is a major hub in SE Asia and they carried over 30 million people thru Singapore last year, 2/3s more than Sydney. If Qantas started flying to the US out of Singapore it could be beneficial.
As for Bransons Pacific ideaswho knows. Maybe we are seeing the First truly Global Airline in our midst unfolding.
One things for sure this industry is allways exciting, except for the lacking of job security.
Sheep
As for Bransons Pacific ideaswho knows. Maybe we are seeing the First truly Global Airline in our midst unfolding.
One things for sure this industry is allways exciting, except for the lacking of job security.
Sheep
