Singapore wants a Shot at the Aussie/USA Route
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Re: Cherry picking.
Does any free-enterprise, capitalist-run airline run at a deliberate long term loss on any route? Don't they all cherry pick to some extent?
Jetstar Asia has been dabbling in SQ's markets. Perhaps it's time for SQ to dabble in Qantas' markets.
The difference between a domestic and international marketplace is not so clear cut anymore in terms of operations. The reasoning behind traditional market protection was protection of national interest. I believe it is now more in the national interest to open the market up.
I like the prospect of being able to fly Virgin and having my bags checked through onto SQ if that becomes a possibility. More choice for the consumer.
Does any free-enterprise, capitalist-run airline run at a deliberate long term loss on any route? Don't they all cherry pick to some extent?
Jetstar Asia has been dabbling in SQ's markets. Perhaps it's time for SQ to dabble in Qantas' markets.
The difference between a domestic and international marketplace is not so clear cut anymore in terms of operations. The reasoning behind traditional market protection was protection of national interest. I believe it is now more in the national interest to open the market up.
I like the prospect of being able to fly Virgin and having my bags checked through onto SQ if that becomes a possibility. More choice for the consumer.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
I wonder if SQ want to go this alone, or whether they're considering a codeshare operation with another American carrier - or Virgin?
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Air NZ also has the rights to fly from Aus to the US but stopped a year or two back.
From my understanding, Singair as a 1st preference would like to do this flying in their own right ie Sin-Syd-LA etc.
As an aside, why is everyone so keen to get Singapore on this route? They already have a competitive advantage with the way things work in their own country, so why let them take the icing off the cake for our carriers?
The more competition there is on the route, the less attractive it becomes for someone else, say Virgin, to enter the market to the states. For young people starting out in GA nowadays, they really only aspire to Qantas, Virgin or Jetstar. How many actually get a gig with Singapore Airlines on conditions that match those in Australia. Why do we want to create employment opportunities for foreigners that takes away opportunities from our own?
How will young FA's advance when Singapore flies this route with their own for which their labour laws allow them to employ on a somewhat discriminatory basis compared to our labour laws? Do they pay their FA's, maintenance people and others in Singapore who will be doing the majority of the work compared to here in Aus? It is not just pilots who will get shorted with this deal, but Flight Attendants, engineers and many others who would be employed on a much greater scale if the airline was to be based in Australia, not just fly through here enroute to the states.
As for Singapore Airlines, they get preferential treatment out of Singapore it would appear. How many other carriers get stuck at lower levels, get held short of the main taxyway for several minutes until the Singair starts and gets number 1 position at the holding point. Their system, along with those of many other countries looks after their own national carrier first, others second, while here in Australia (and NZ) we take a much fairer approach. What has Singapore got to offer the rest of Australia's carriers if this deal goes ahead? What do we get out of it?
All up, it won't just be Qantas people who lose out if this deal goes through, but the Australian working public as a whole.
From my understanding, Singair as a 1st preference would like to do this flying in their own right ie Sin-Syd-LA etc.
As an aside, why is everyone so keen to get Singapore on this route? They already have a competitive advantage with the way things work in their own country, so why let them take the icing off the cake for our carriers?
The more competition there is on the route, the less attractive it becomes for someone else, say Virgin, to enter the market to the states. For young people starting out in GA nowadays, they really only aspire to Qantas, Virgin or Jetstar. How many actually get a gig with Singapore Airlines on conditions that match those in Australia. Why do we want to create employment opportunities for foreigners that takes away opportunities from our own?
How will young FA's advance when Singapore flies this route with their own for which their labour laws allow them to employ on a somewhat discriminatory basis compared to our labour laws? Do they pay their FA's, maintenance people and others in Singapore who will be doing the majority of the work compared to here in Aus? It is not just pilots who will get shorted with this deal, but Flight Attendants, engineers and many others who would be employed on a much greater scale if the airline was to be based in Australia, not just fly through here enroute to the states.
As for Singapore Airlines, they get preferential treatment out of Singapore it would appear. How many other carriers get stuck at lower levels, get held short of the main taxyway for several minutes until the Singair starts and gets number 1 position at the holding point. Their system, along with those of many other countries looks after their own national carrier first, others second, while here in Australia (and NZ) we take a much fairer approach. What has Singapore got to offer the rest of Australia's carriers if this deal goes ahead? What do we get out of it?
All up, it won't just be Qantas people who lose out if this deal goes through, but the Australian working public as a whole.
Last edited by Crusty Demon; 11th Jan 2005 at 22:08.
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What will SQ add to the route for Australia?
Only red ink. They will not do anything to lower fares as they just want to profit and plunder.
The latest stats on the Dept of Transport website are for September 2004. Inbound to Oz, they say that QF had a load factor of 70.1% with UAL having a reported load factor of 78.8%. Outbound, the numbers are 74.9% and 84.5% respectively. So both carriers are operating with q lot of empty seats. Sure in peak periods the numbers increase to nearly 100% but generally Sept would be indicative of the year round experience. The numbers show a healthy increase over the previous year but it is still recovering from 911 and the poor US economy.
And we can't think that the route is a monopoly for Qantas - United in all its bulk is still there. Air Pacific, Air New Zealand, Air Canada and Hawaiian all offer direct services to Nth America and they will be joined by Air Tahiti Niue in the next few months. Finally, the bottom feeders like Korean, Asiana, EVA, China Airlines and some other Asian carriers are carting the price conscious market via Asoia to connect with their many services to/from nth America. With all that is available, what really can SQ add?
The argument that QF through JetStar Asia is also specious. We could offset that by saying that SQ has a significant interest in Virgin Atlantic which has just started operations to Oz so the score is one each!! The impact that VS has on the Australian markert will be more significant than the puny impact of Jet*Asia will have in WSSS.
It will be a tragedy for Australia if Canberra gives in to the parasites that are SQ, and any other carrier that offers Australia so little in return. Let us learn the lessons from being overly generous to Emirates. At the risk of being cynical, may I ask if the bureaucrats in Canberra are paid performance bonuses by 'resolving' outstanding issues such as the SQ claim for traffic rights on the Pacific?
The latest stats on the Dept of Transport website are for September 2004. Inbound to Oz, they say that QF had a load factor of 70.1% with UAL having a reported load factor of 78.8%. Outbound, the numbers are 74.9% and 84.5% respectively. So both carriers are operating with q lot of empty seats. Sure in peak periods the numbers increase to nearly 100% but generally Sept would be indicative of the year round experience. The numbers show a healthy increase over the previous year but it is still recovering from 911 and the poor US economy.
And we can't think that the route is a monopoly for Qantas - United in all its bulk is still there. Air Pacific, Air New Zealand, Air Canada and Hawaiian all offer direct services to Nth America and they will be joined by Air Tahiti Niue in the next few months. Finally, the bottom feeders like Korean, Asiana, EVA, China Airlines and some other Asian carriers are carting the price conscious market via Asoia to connect with their many services to/from nth America. With all that is available, what really can SQ add?
The argument that QF through JetStar Asia is also specious. We could offset that by saying that SQ has a significant interest in Virgin Atlantic which has just started operations to Oz so the score is one each!! The impact that VS has on the Australian markert will be more significant than the puny impact of Jet*Asia will have in WSSS.
It will be a tragedy for Australia if Canberra gives in to the parasites that are SQ, and any other carrier that offers Australia so little in return. Let us learn the lessons from being overly generous to Emirates. At the risk of being cynical, may I ask if the bureaucrats in Canberra are paid performance bonuses by 'resolving' outstanding issues such as the SQ claim for traffic rights on the Pacific?
Crusty Demon,
you forgot the 360 deg orbit below 10000ft to mysteriously find yourself behind an SQ, or the vector to 40nm final again putting you behind SQ.
Also like the SQ flights that arrive on the departure runway holding up departures for 10 mins or so (including waiting for the SQ training flight doing circuits)
you forgot the 360 deg orbit below 10000ft to mysteriously find yourself behind an SQ, or the vector to 40nm final again putting you behind SQ.
Also like the SQ flights that arrive on the departure runway holding up departures for 10 mins or so (including waiting for the SQ training flight doing circuits)
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The 8 340's on the book's..whose books because they are not on CASA's list...is this just wishful thinking of some more LH jobs opening up?..also what about the 'guys from the gulf' and their plans to fly out of BNE???
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I have to take you guys on who reckon that SQ a/c get preferential treatment from ATC into SIN. This is quite simply RUBBISH. You are living in dreamland! There is a absolutely nothing to back up your assertions but your own vivid imaginations. I can assure you that the average SQ pilot often feels aggrieved that he doen't get some sort of preferential treatment, given what goes in China, Thailand etc.After many years of flying in and out of SIN, I have never seen or received any preference given by SIN ATC, BUT I have many time been with pilots who thought they were being given the run around, when in actual fact it was obvious it was just not the case. I have always found SIN ATC to very fair, much more so than most other centres in the region.
Why don't you start behaving like the mature professionals you claim to be.
End of monologue!
Why don't you start behaving like the mature professionals you claim to be.
End of monologue!
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Hear Hear KnackeredII!
You beat me to it. Whole heartedly agree that SIA don't get any favours from Changi ATC and anyone that thinks they do should make the time for an ATC visit and see the system in operation.
It is quite impartial and training aircraft have no priority at all, they are radar vectored out of the way of arrivals and departures .
Singapore's own airspace is very, very small and controlled by the tower! The levels allocated are as per an agreement between Singapore, Malaysia, Vietnam and Indonesia and these countries TELL Singapore what levels they will accept their traffic at. Changi operate a totally non-partisan slot system to achieve separation based on the published schedule and the time the aircraft calls for it's clearance.
Very rarely does a landing aircraft get the TO runway but we all like to minimise taxying if possible and there is no harm in asking. If you think you are hard done by at Changi just try getting RW25L at LAX next time you are an inbound freighter for the ICC! You wont, simple as that, it 'belongs' to United and AA, you will get 24R and then spend thirty minutes plus taxying across the active runways, going from the NE corner of the field to the SW corner.
There may well be a lot wrong with SIA and Singapore in general but when it comes to ATC they run a very fair and tight ship.
It is quite impartial and training aircraft have no priority at all, they are radar vectored out of the way of arrivals and departures .
Singapore's own airspace is very, very small and controlled by the tower! The levels allocated are as per an agreement between Singapore, Malaysia, Vietnam and Indonesia and these countries TELL Singapore what levels they will accept their traffic at. Changi operate a totally non-partisan slot system to achieve separation based on the published schedule and the time the aircraft calls for it's clearance.
Very rarely does a landing aircraft get the TO runway but we all like to minimise taxying if possible and there is no harm in asking. If you think you are hard done by at Changi just try getting RW25L at LAX next time you are an inbound freighter for the ICC! You wont, simple as that, it 'belongs' to United and AA, you will get 24R and then spend thirty minutes plus taxying across the active runways, going from the NE corner of the field to the SW corner.
There may well be a lot wrong with SIA and Singapore in general but when it comes to ATC they run a very fair and tight ship.
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As a pax that travels a lot on SQ I would have to agree with previous posts that SQ doesn't get preferential treatment in Singapore. I have had plenty of arrivals onto 02L ? then backtrack past terminal 1 and 3, then over the overpass and down to an F gate or even one of the middle E gates. I have even done one of ftrplt's orbits in an SQ 777 between Batam and Singapore (quite a spectacular view of those Indonesian islands at low level). On a recent evening departure to BNE what did we have to give way to, QF52 (recognised as a QF 743) which is due in BNE at about same time. That really stings when you get to BNE as SQ are always allocated a far gate for the arriving am flight. You can arrive before QF or JL but still be later to immigration.
