Jetstar routes & 717 to Qantas Link
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Jetstar routes & 717 to Qantas Link
Anyone in the know when Jetstar is going to branch out of the eastern seaboard and head west from Adelaide, and up to Darwin?
I'm guessing the 717 announcement with Qantas Link should be in the next few weeks on who's crewing them.
Any NJS/JQ drivers care to comment on the likelyhood?
I'm guessing the 717 announcement with Qantas Link should be in the next few weeks on who's crewing them.
Any NJS/JQ drivers care to comment on the likelyhood?
Adelaide already announced, start's February. AJ can be quoted as saying that NT and WA destinations can be expected to join the network by late 2005. They need more 320's naturally to expand much further, and are getting several more over the next 6-8 months, as they roll over the 71's into Qlink.
As for who will get the 717 gig in the west, anybody's guess, though I believe jetstar are banking on winning it and will no doubt aid their expansion westwards...
should they be successful they will be running the two operations, Jetstar out of Perth with the 320's, and the QLink 717 ops.
As for who will get the 717 gig in the west, anybody's guess, though I believe jetstar are banking on winning it and will no doubt aid their expansion westwards...
should they be successful they will be running the two operations, Jetstar out of Perth with the 320's, and the QLink 717 ops.
should they be successful they will be running the two operations, Jetstar out of Perth with the 320's, and the QLink 717 ops.
Seems the ex-impulse A320 pilots have woken up and realised that thye are getting paid close to half of A320 pilots elsewhere in the region, with a strong demand for 320 pilots at the moment wispers are about that jetstar are looking at decreasing wages, not incresing.
So decreasing wages, coupled with a contract that says if you go in as a direct entry A320 capt on a 146 drivers pay, and the company will bust you back to FO in 24 months as the impulse EBA has all their pilots having seniority.
And you wonder why people are saying thanks but no thanks, sure you have a million eastern pilots wanting to get in, from what I hear even those people are thinking hard about it, for some its a pay cut, and pay for your endorsement, and no recognition for your service with Qantaslink in terms of seniority, except if your ex-impulse flying Qantaslink.
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swh
What a load of garbage. Mate you are totally off centre. Go back to your little hole where you can dream up some more crap. Even Eastern pilots are even thinking. Wages being reduced because demand is high and supply low. The law of economics? Lol
What a load of garbage. Mate you are totally off centre. Go back to your little hole where you can dream up some more crap. Even Eastern pilots are even thinking. Wages being reduced because demand is high and supply low. The law of economics? Lol
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If Jetstar are certainties, it begs the question why not just give it too them and QF tell them that this is the price that will be paid rather than going through a tender process?
Seems like the rat is just running down the costs of the incumbent
Seems like the rat is just running down the costs of the incumbent
commander adama,
No need for personal attacks.
What I have said is exactly how it has been described by A320 captains with JST, and experience A320 pilots who have talked to JST recently.
JST apparently also require experienced pilots on the A320 to become recurrent on the A320 at their own expense.
Yes well if you were an Dash F/O with EAA and have to wait for 4+ years for a Dash command and looking at 60k EAA gross compared with 65k gross JST, having to pay 20k+ for an A320 endorsement, then bonded for your line training, and knowning no chance of a command for about as long as it would take to get on in EAA (due to impulse pilots haveing seniority, and loose seniority with EAA, and possible reduction intravel benifits for 6 months) why whould you jump ship other than as a stepping stone to KA, CX etc.
No need for personal attacks.
What I have said is exactly how it has been described by A320 captains with JST, and experience A320 pilots who have talked to JST recently.
JST apparently also require experienced pilots on the A320 to become recurrent on the A320 at their own expense.
Wages being reduced because demand is high and supply low. The law of economics? Lol
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Endorsement costs $33,500
(Get some back in tax maybe)
FO pay, 717 or a320 $73,000
Overtime and you have to do it $80.00 per hour after 75 hours currently rostered around 95 hours per month..
$4200 professional retention bonus
Move at your own expense
pay for and maintain your own Jeps
6 months wait for staff travel unless you enter via EOI from Eastern or Sunstate… lose years of service with Qantas…
(Get some back in tax maybe)
FO pay, 717 or a320 $73,000
Overtime and you have to do it $80.00 per hour after 75 hours currently rostered around 95 hours per month..
$4200 professional retention bonus
Move at your own expense
pay for and maintain your own Jeps
6 months wait for staff travel unless you enter via EOI from Eastern or Sunstate… lose years of service with Qantas…
spinout,
Thanks for that, those numbers they look about right, 60% of capt for f/0, I thought it was 55%.
The $80/hr is that the Capt or F/O rate ? guys are saying the computer roster thing will fly you up to 75 hrs (which is 900/yr), then add 20 hrs of other stuff ontop for which overtime is not paid. Like EPs, SOPs, SIM etc. so you never see any overtime.
Be careful with the overtime also, some LCC operators for overtime payment work on standard computer flightplan "airswitch" sector time, does not take into account being early or late on sector time, and does not take into account ground ATC or aircraft tech delays.
Overtime is normally paid 1 month in behind.
So after PAYE tax, medicare, your take home would be from ATO $37,869 and minus $33,500 endorsement fee, first year you take home $4,369, how much an hour will make (75 hrs a month = 900/yr) ? $4.85/hr !!!!!
Thanks for that, those numbers they look about right, 60% of capt for f/0, I thought it was 55%.
The $80/hr is that the Capt or F/O rate ? guys are saying the computer roster thing will fly you up to 75 hrs (which is 900/yr), then add 20 hrs of other stuff ontop for which overtime is not paid. Like EPs, SOPs, SIM etc. so you never see any overtime.
Be careful with the overtime also, some LCC operators for overtime payment work on standard computer flightplan "airswitch" sector time, does not take into account being early or late on sector time, and does not take into account ground ATC or aircraft tech delays.
Overtime is normally paid 1 month in behind.
So after PAYE tax, medicare, your take home would be from ATO $37,869 and minus $33,500 endorsement fee, first year you take home $4,369, how much an hour will make (75 hrs a month = 900/yr) ? $4.85/hr !!!!!
swh
Yes I agree with figures that your take home pay is only $4.85/hour for the first year.
But, look at the big picture / long term.
Is this a job you will only keep for 1 year ?
Or more like maybe 20 or more years ?
I still believe in the long term you will be financially better off even if the first year is hard (for the average pilot coming out of GA).
$4.85/hour anyway is very good for your first year in an airline compared to your first year in GA !!
Lets say you spend $50,000 to gain a CPL and then your first job brings you $15,000 !!
This means your first year in GA you are working at a loss of $35,000 !! You are losing $70/hour (based on 500 hours/year) !!
But then why do pilots continue ? Because they look at the long term picture.
Your first in the airlines can now be likened to your first year GA, but better. And just like GA, it will get better, and you will eventually make a "profit".
$4.85 the first year will turn into $42.00 the next year and only get better. And what about when you get your command ?
Look at the long term !!
But, look at the big picture / long term.
Is this a job you will only keep for 1 year ?
Or more like maybe 20 or more years ?
I still believe in the long term you will be financially better off even if the first year is hard (for the average pilot coming out of GA).
$4.85/hour anyway is very good for your first year in an airline compared to your first year in GA !!
Lets say you spend $50,000 to gain a CPL and then your first job brings you $15,000 !!
This means your first year in GA you are working at a loss of $35,000 !! You are losing $70/hour (based on 500 hours/year) !!
But then why do pilots continue ? Because they look at the long term picture.
Your first in the airlines can now be likened to your first year GA, but better. And just like GA, it will get better, and you will eventually make a "profit".
$4.85 the first year will turn into $42.00 the next year and only get better. And what about when you get your command ?
Look at the long term !!
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swh;
It is common practice to use agreed 'sector block times'. In some mindset's it's a good idea, gives crew the motorvation to get there on schedule, as opposed to milking extra pay and being late... not that anyone would do that now.... 
Be careful with the overtime also, some LCC operators for overtime payment work on standard computer flightplan "airswitch" sector time, does not take into account being early or late on sector time, and does not take into account ground ATC or aircraft tech delays
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SWH,
" . . . . getting paid close to half of A320 pilots elsewhere in the region".
Would you agree to lump the 737 in with the A320 in that they are really the same size, operation, complexity etc?
Australia is in the region known as Oceania, or Australia - Pacific. Care to name how many A320 (and 737) pilots in the "region" are paid twice as much as Jetstar? I can think of only one.
" . . . jetstar are looking at decreasing wages, not incresing." Actually, a wage rise is probably on the way. Certainly not a decrease - the legal folks would have something to say about that.
" . . . other than as a stepping stone to KA, CX etc". I am sure you are aware that there are many pilots in these carriers interested in coming back to oz to work for Jetstar, or Virgin, as many have done already.
"So after PAYE tax, medicare, your take home would be from ATO $37,869 and minus $33,500 endorsement fee, first year you take home $4,369, how much an hour will make (75 hrs a month = 900/yr) ? $4.85/hr !!!!!"
Take a look at those net figures again - slightly off the mark. Also, take a look at your endorsement cost. More importantly, take a look at second year pay after the training is paid for.
BUT most importantly of all - take a look at it from a point of view other than money. Just for change.
" . . . . getting paid close to half of A320 pilots elsewhere in the region".
Would you agree to lump the 737 in with the A320 in that they are really the same size, operation, complexity etc?
Australia is in the region known as Oceania, or Australia - Pacific. Care to name how many A320 (and 737) pilots in the "region" are paid twice as much as Jetstar? I can think of only one.
" . . . jetstar are looking at decreasing wages, not incresing." Actually, a wage rise is probably on the way. Certainly not a decrease - the legal folks would have something to say about that.
" . . . other than as a stepping stone to KA, CX etc". I am sure you are aware that there are many pilots in these carriers interested in coming back to oz to work for Jetstar, or Virgin, as many have done already.
"So after PAYE tax, medicare, your take home would be from ATO $37,869 and minus $33,500 endorsement fee, first year you take home $4,369, how much an hour will make (75 hrs a month = 900/yr) ? $4.85/hr !!!!!"
Take a look at those net figures again - slightly off the mark. Also, take a look at your endorsement cost. More importantly, take a look at second year pay after the training is paid for.
BUT most importantly of all - take a look at it from a point of view other than money. Just for change.
John Citizen
Your long term picture is quite bleak IMHO.
Paying for your endorsement ( that the airline already has a free training credit for ) is another example of a a group of pilots who looked after themselves without a long term picture.
Pilots that have to pay for their training at airline level, are hoodwinked to accept poor pay aswell.
Hats off to the Impulse and Virgin pilot group!
Would not be so bad if they wallowed in their own mess that they created in Australia. But, with the naivety that drove the group to pay for their training and accept poor pay and conditions, they seek to leave their "lifestyle" existance in Oz and seek the expat Pot Of Gold.
The willingness of hundreds of jet pilots to leave the wonderful county that Australia is, has foreign operators wondering if they are paying pilots too much!
Bad long term picture guys-clean up the backyard.
Chilli Pepper
I would suggest confidently, there are a lot more trying to get out of Virgin Blue and J* to the choice overseas positions than vice versa.
Your long term picture is quite bleak IMHO.
Paying for your endorsement ( that the airline already has a free training credit for ) is another example of a a group of pilots who looked after themselves without a long term picture.
Pilots that have to pay for their training at airline level, are hoodwinked to accept poor pay aswell.
Hats off to the Impulse and Virgin pilot group!
Would not be so bad if they wallowed in their own mess that they created in Australia. But, with the naivety that drove the group to pay for their training and accept poor pay and conditions, they seek to leave their "lifestyle" existance in Oz and seek the expat Pot Of Gold.
The willingness of hundreds of jet pilots to leave the wonderful county that Australia is, has foreign operators wondering if they are paying pilots too much!
Bad long term picture guys-clean up the backyard.
Chilli Pepper
I would suggest confidently, there are a lot more trying to get out of Virgin Blue and J* to the choice overseas positions than vice versa.
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I have tried to sit on my hands on this topic, but this guy rang my bell a little too hard...
Red Hot...
Are you sure you hold/held a COMMERCIAL pilot licence?
Are you advocating that a job that takes on average at least 7 years specialist training and experience to obtain, requires shiftwork, continous competency checking, back of the clock, overnighting, and countless restrictions and risks imposed on your lifestyle not found in other occupations, should be paid even LESS?
Turn a job that pays around $70k p.a into one that effectively pays $65k?
Are you advocating that whenever an airline decides to introduce new equipment, the current pilots just stump up $30k-$40k to retain their jobs? This may happen every five years!
Have you ever DONE this job?
Should a doctor be asked to take less pay simply because they find the job interesting and enjoyable?
A lawyer?
A firefighter?
A teacher?
You sound like an impractical dreamer that is still running on the promises made by a spotty instructor at a GAAP flying school.
You will soon find out that dedication and enjoyment does not pay for those things you will soon expect from life.
Of course it is about money. Why else would I spend half my life with my head in the books reading about SOPS, hydraulics, runway performance requirements, the whole shebang. $30k could buy me a fifth share in a Pitts S2 that will be a ****load more interesting to fly than a medium transport category jet, and I could fly it pretty much anytime i wanted to, and nobody would be on my case as to how I chose to fly it.
If money is not a concern to you, stop populating a professional pilot forum with your drivel.
Of course its all about money. What a stupid comment.
Red Hot...
BUT most importantly of all - take a look at it from a point of view other than money. Just for change.
Are you advocating that a job that takes on average at least 7 years specialist training and experience to obtain, requires shiftwork, continous competency checking, back of the clock, overnighting, and countless restrictions and risks imposed on your lifestyle not found in other occupations, should be paid even LESS?
Turn a job that pays around $70k p.a into one that effectively pays $65k?
Are you advocating that whenever an airline decides to introduce new equipment, the current pilots just stump up $30k-$40k to retain their jobs? This may happen every five years!
Have you ever DONE this job?
Should a doctor be asked to take less pay simply because they find the job interesting and enjoyable?
A lawyer?
A firefighter?
A teacher?
You sound like an impractical dreamer that is still running on the promises made by a spotty instructor at a GAAP flying school.
You will soon find out that dedication and enjoyment does not pay for those things you will soon expect from life.
Of course it is about money. Why else would I spend half my life with my head in the books reading about SOPS, hydraulics, runway performance requirements, the whole shebang. $30k could buy me a fifth share in a Pitts S2 that will be a ****load more interesting to fly than a medium transport category jet, and I could fly it pretty much anytime i wanted to, and nobody would be on my case as to how I chose to fly it.
If money is not a concern to you, stop populating a professional pilot forum with your drivel.
Of course its all about money. What a stupid comment.
Last edited by ITCZ; 29th Dec 2004 at 03:47.
Red Hot Chili Pepper
What a load of garbage. For the record there were about four pilots about three years ago that left CX to go to DJ because they wanted to live back in Australia. Since a basing wasn’t possible on the B777 they all resigned. One other Captain who left against his will also went to DJ as a direct entry captain or very close to it. Now the number of guys and girls that have been trying to get into CX and I imagine KA as well is well documented and known in our airline. To my knowledge none have been successful at CX. Maybe their motive for wanting to come here came through at their interviews.
I have never met any pilot here that would want to work for DJ or worse Jetstar voluntarily. Sh*t the company is finding it hard enough to find pilots to take an Aussie base because of the crap pay and high taxes let alone the even crapper pay and conditions that both the low cost operators offer. For the record “NO” CX pilot has left here to work for DJ or Jetstar voluntarily in the last three years. We aren’t idiots. Some may want to move back to Aus but none are prepared to accept the crap conditions that both the low cost carriers are offering.
" . . . other than as a stepping stone to KA, CX etc". I am sure you are aware that there are many pilots in these carriers interested in coming back to oz to work for Jetstar, or Virgin, as many have done already.
I have never met any pilot here that would want to work for DJ or worse Jetstar voluntarily. Sh*t the company is finding it hard enough to find pilots to take an Aussie base because of the crap pay and high taxes let alone the even crapper pay and conditions that both the low cost operators offer. For the record “NO” CX pilot has left here to work for DJ or Jetstar voluntarily in the last three years. We aren’t idiots. Some may want to move back to Aus but none are prepared to accept the crap conditions that both the low cost carriers are offering.
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commander assdama you pathetic moron, wages started on the slide the day you fools at Nopulse started flying Beech 1900's for $27,000.
Don't sit there and spout holier than thou crap about economics matey, as you have absolutely no idea with your rose coloured goggles.
Hows flight sim going fool? How bout you crawl back into your hole?
Your comments are like your lower intestine assdama, stinking and loaded with danger.
Don't sit there and spout holier than thou crap about economics matey, as you have absolutely no idea with your rose coloured goggles.
Hows flight sim going fool? How bout you crawl back into your hole?
Your comments are like your lower intestine assdama, stinking and loaded with danger.
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ICTZ,
Yes, an ATPL in my hot little hand. It has been there for many many years now.
7 years of specialist training? In the company I now work for (and the one before that) kids with 12 months training are now flying the plum widebody around without much trouble in the RHS. Guys with only 2.5 years service are LHS narrow body having spent minimal time in GA beforehand. This is common in Asia and Europe. Take a look at carriers like Air China. Only 3-4 years after graduating from the sausage factory pilots are LHS of jet airliners.
I dont recall anybody advocating being paid less. In fact I very specifically stated that in Jetstar's case, this will not be occuring. You may have overlooked that point.
I dont advocate that pilots pay for endorsement training when new aircraft are parked on the ramp. Is this happening at Jetstar? Are the 717 drivers being asked to pony up the cash to get rated on the A320?
I dont know of any doctor who has been asked to receive "less pay" because he enjoys the job. I DO know of doctors, lawyers and a lot of airline pilots that have left higher paying jobs to work for lower paying jobs for reasons totally unrelated to money. You, and other ppruners may think in dollar terms only, but many employees make job decisions based on a myriad of reasons.
"You will soon find out that dedication and enjoyment does not pay for those things you will soon expect from life."
Actually, I have found out that dedication and enjoyment are far more important than taking home gobs of cash. I have worked on both sides of the fence and found that no amount of cash can offset the dissapointment of working for a ruthless, inhuman and totally visionless airline.
I dont recall saying that the money is of "no concern" to me. You would make a great politician. Of course money is important but it is not at the top of the list.
Is having a different point of view a threat to you. Would you really feel more comfortable ppruning away with nothing but narrow minded gits like yourself. How boring.
404 Titan,
You open with "what a load of garbage" and then go on to talk of 4 pilots that left CX for VB. Which is it? You say they left for reasons of lifestyle, so obviously its not "garbage" that people move from job to job for reasons other than money.Take a look at pilots leaving carriers such as Eva, as some have, Gulf as some are trying and Qatar as many would love to. I have no doubt that the majority is in the other direction, so keep your hair on. BUT - its early days, only a couple of years since AN went broke but a lot of the refugees I know admit it wont be long until a LOWER PAID JOB in oz will outweigh the benfits of the cash cow in Asia or Europe or the ME.
Yes, an ATPL in my hot little hand. It has been there for many many years now.
7 years of specialist training? In the company I now work for (and the one before that) kids with 12 months training are now flying the plum widebody around without much trouble in the RHS. Guys with only 2.5 years service are LHS narrow body having spent minimal time in GA beforehand. This is common in Asia and Europe. Take a look at carriers like Air China. Only 3-4 years after graduating from the sausage factory pilots are LHS of jet airliners.
I dont recall anybody advocating being paid less. In fact I very specifically stated that in Jetstar's case, this will not be occuring. You may have overlooked that point.
I dont advocate that pilots pay for endorsement training when new aircraft are parked on the ramp. Is this happening at Jetstar? Are the 717 drivers being asked to pony up the cash to get rated on the A320?
I dont know of any doctor who has been asked to receive "less pay" because he enjoys the job. I DO know of doctors, lawyers and a lot of airline pilots that have left higher paying jobs to work for lower paying jobs for reasons totally unrelated to money. You, and other ppruners may think in dollar terms only, but many employees make job decisions based on a myriad of reasons.
"You will soon find out that dedication and enjoyment does not pay for those things you will soon expect from life."
Actually, I have found out that dedication and enjoyment are far more important than taking home gobs of cash. I have worked on both sides of the fence and found that no amount of cash can offset the dissapointment of working for a ruthless, inhuman and totally visionless airline.
I dont recall saying that the money is of "no concern" to me. You would make a great politician. Of course money is important but it is not at the top of the list.
Is having a different point of view a threat to you. Would you really feel more comfortable ppruning away with nothing but narrow minded gits like yourself. How boring.
404 Titan,
You open with "what a load of garbage" and then go on to talk of 4 pilots that left CX for VB. Which is it? You say they left for reasons of lifestyle, so obviously its not "garbage" that people move from job to job for reasons other than money.Take a look at pilots leaving carriers such as Eva, as some have, Gulf as some are trying and Qatar as many would love to. I have no doubt that the majority is in the other direction, so keep your hair on. BUT - its early days, only a couple of years since AN went broke but a lot of the refugees I know admit it wont be long until a LOWER PAID JOB in oz will outweigh the benfits of the cash cow in Asia or Europe or the ME.
Red Hot Chili Pepper,
To answer your question, every A320 operator in Singapore and Hong Kong that I know of...the F/Os take home more than Jetstar Captains in Oz do.
Have a look at where Jetstar pilots are going, Hong Kong, Taipie, and Singapore, they are not going for lifestyle reasons I can give you the tip. actutally I tell I lie, some do for lifestyle, the like the expat roster thing.
P.S. No need for personal attacks guys ...
Australia is in the region known as Oceania, or Australia - Pacific. Care to name how many A320 (and 737) pilots in the "region" are paid twice as much as Jetstar? I can think of only one.
Have a look at where Jetstar pilots are going, Hong Kong, Taipie, and Singapore, they are not going for lifestyle reasons I can give you the tip. actutally I tell I lie, some do for lifestyle, the like the expat roster thing.
P.S. No need for personal attacks guys ...
Red Hot Chili Pepper
I would call four out of about 2300 pilots in both CX and KA over the last three years as very very very few. So therefore your statement that many have come down as definitely garbage and a huge exaggeration of the truth.
As for your comments about Eva and Gulf, maybe this reflects the erosion of conditions and abuse of civil rights and contracts that is causing many in these carriers to leave. From what I gather there is huge problems with expat staff moral in both these carriers. Maybe you are getting a few disgruntled pilots returning from these carriers, but you certainly aren’t getting “many” from CX or KA and certainly none recently.
" . . . other than as a stepping stone to KA, CX etc". I am sure you are aware that there are many pilots in these carriers interested in coming back to oz to work for Jetstar, or Virgin, as many have done already.
As for your comments about Eva and Gulf, maybe this reflects the erosion of conditions and abuse of civil rights and contracts that is causing many in these carriers to leave. From what I gather there is huge problems with expat staff moral in both these carriers. Maybe you are getting a few disgruntled pilots returning from these carriers, but you certainly aren’t getting “many” from CX or KA and certainly none recently.
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I think Pete Conrads post directed at Cmdr Adama contains probably the best insult I have ever read on this forum.
"Your comments are like your lower intestine assdama, stinking and loaded with danger."
"Your comments are like your lower intestine assdama, stinking and loaded with danger."