Jetstar routes & 717 to Qantas Link
404 Titan,
I have made no such assumption, payment for the endorsement is required at the time of obtaining the endorsement, i.e. within the first year. The training provider does not accept layby or lease payments for the endorsement.
Borrowing money does not change the fact that the expense was incurred in the first year, it just means your balance sheet would show a debt to a lender, the debt does not go away.
By borrowing money you have indirectly provided finance to your employer.
My understanding is the endorsement is pre-employment requirement of the contract, and that tax relief may or may not be available.
Yes...the 900 hrs a year is stick time, from what I am told the 75 hrs/month mark to gain overtime is based on a standard sector "airswitch" time, does not take into account holding or other ground based delays.
I have made no such assumption, payment for the endorsement is required at the time of obtaining the endorsement, i.e. within the first year. The training provider does not accept layby or lease payments for the endorsement.
Borrowing money does not change the fact that the expense was incurred in the first year, it just means your balance sheet would show a debt to a lender, the debt does not go away.
By borrowing money you have indirectly provided finance to your employer.
My understanding is the endorsement is pre-employment requirement of the contract, and that tax relief may or may not be available.
Yes...the 900 hrs a year is stick time, from what I am told the 75 hrs/month mark to gain overtime is based on a standard sector "airswitch" time, does not take into account holding or other ground based delays.
I don’t want to get into a slanging match with you because we are both arguing from the same side. I don’t like the fact that airlines like DJ, J* and other low cost airlines are undermining and threatening my hard earned conditions.
BUT, from a strictly accounting point of view and I do know what I am talking about, (please check my profile), if one was to pay for their endorsement from savings, it is from income already earned, probably over a number of years. If one has to borrow the money, which I would presume a lot do, the repayments would be paid off over a number of years from future earnings. It isn’t paid for from the first years earnings, which in a strictly accounting point of view, you have said to support your argument.
It is irrelevant that the fee has to be provided up front. What is important is the length of time it took the new employee to earn the money from previous work or how long it will take them to pay it back. In terms of writing the endorsement (asset) off, you also need to look at how long it is of use. If the pilot is on the same aircraft for ten years then you could feasibly write it off over this period of time.
I see this as no different to someone who pays for their flying training from their own savings or borrowing the money. The end result is a license (asset), which has a finite life. You would write off the cost of the license over the period that it earned you a return on your investment, i.e. until you retire or loose your medical. In other words the older you get the less the license is worth.
If as you say it is a pre employment requirement to have the endorsement, then it isn’t possible to get any tax relief.
BUT, from a strictly accounting point of view and I do know what I am talking about, (please check my profile), if one was to pay for their endorsement from savings, it is from income already earned, probably over a number of years. If one has to borrow the money, which I would presume a lot do, the repayments would be paid off over a number of years from future earnings. It isn’t paid for from the first years earnings, which in a strictly accounting point of view, you have said to support your argument.
your take home would be from ATO $37,869 and minus $33,500 endorsement fee, first year you take home $4,369
I see this as no different to someone who pays for their flying training from their own savings or borrowing the money. The end result is a license (asset), which has a finite life. You would write off the cost of the license over the period that it earned you a return on your investment, i.e. until you retire or loose your medical. In other words the older you get the less the license is worth.
If as you say it is a pre employment requirement to have the endorsement, then it isn’t possible to get any tax relief.
The point that many seem to miss is that in the case of the Australian airlines, the ones that make YOU pay for your endorsement put you on full pay from day 1.
The ones that pay for the endorsement themselves pay a training wage for a period, either until checked to line or 6 months or 2 years - whatever the QF thingie is.
In either event the money comes out of the trainees pocket one way or another.
The pay up front for the endorsement shifts the risk to the student, however it makes for very motivated students.
The ones that pay for the endorsement themselves pay a training wage for a period, either until checked to line or 6 months or 2 years - whatever the QF thingie is.
In either event the money comes out of the trainees pocket one way or another.
The pay up front for the endorsement shifts the risk to the student, however it makes for very motivated students.
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I agree with Dehav - you pay for endorsements one way or the other; the low "training" salary for the first 6 months and then the legacy airlines put you on a scaled pay for the next ten years (still repaying the endorsement), but this has always been the more palatable approach and perhaps the traditional way...till the advent of LCC's.
This thread started off as a discussion as to who was going to crew the B717 within WA. With Mr Dickson's current strategy of having a number of separate airlines competing against each other, my bet is on NJS succeeding.
This thread started off as a discussion as to who was going to crew the B717 within WA. With Mr Dickson's current strategy of having a number of separate airlines competing against each other, my bet is on NJS succeeding.
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Well, lets see here. why get paid at all? I mean if your stupid enough to pay for your endorsement, which is really a company cost that dumb pilots have elected to pick up, why not chip in for the fuel cost as well. I know, maybe the pilots could pick up any wage increases for the rest of the staff when they come around.
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RTFORU, you will eat those words WHEN you eventually pay for an endorsement.
Pay for an endorsement or be paid a training wage....Whats the difference??????
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Pay for an endorsement or be paid a training wage....Whats the difference??????
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On the issue of paying for an endorsement, two things
1. A training wage from the ones I have seen don’t equate to an endorsement of $33,500…
2. Why does it cost so much for a 717 endorsement, computer based training for the most part, 11 hours fixed base 11 hours moving all done with a buddy so effectively they are charging $67,000 for 22 hours….
With the numbers Jetstar are pumping through you would think it could be done a bit cheaper or is this another method of making money for Jetstar taking a commission....
1. A training wage from the ones I have seen don’t equate to an endorsement of $33,500…
2. Why does it cost so much for a 717 endorsement, computer based training for the most part, 11 hours fixed base 11 hours moving all done with a buddy so effectively they are charging $67,000 for 22 hours….
With the numbers Jetstar are pumping through you would think it could be done a bit cheaper or is this another method of making money for Jetstar taking a commission....
I worked it out a while ago, if you looked at a QF S/O and a Virgin F/O - which were at the time two entry level positions onto mainline jets in this country (excluding the NJS and Impulse jobs for the moment)
At the end of year 2 both were even within a few dollars, after which the QF S/O started to overtake the Virgin F/O - earlier if the move into a window seat happened inside 2 years - though the endorsement cost about $21000 at that time.
Granted we are talking about 2 different positions ie F/O and S/O, however at the time of the comparison they were the entry positions - at the time of the comparison (and this was NOT included in the figures) the time to transition to command in Virgin was under 2 years so the figure in reality was distorted again, however I just assumed that you joined the respective companies and stayed in that position.
With regards the 717 endorsement, I don't know, however I would be surprised if you only got 11 hours of motion time split between 2 pilots.
I suspect that the 22 hours (11 fixed and 11 motion) is per pilot - though ALL that being said 11 hours is a funny number - all of my sim sessions have been 4 hours each....the 737 endorsement I did was 10 4 hour sessions of which 9 were motion.
At the end of year 2 both were even within a few dollars, after which the QF S/O started to overtake the Virgin F/O - earlier if the move into a window seat happened inside 2 years - though the endorsement cost about $21000 at that time.
Granted we are talking about 2 different positions ie F/O and S/O, however at the time of the comparison they were the entry positions - at the time of the comparison (and this was NOT included in the figures) the time to transition to command in Virgin was under 2 years so the figure in reality was distorted again, however I just assumed that you joined the respective companies and stayed in that position.
With regards the 717 endorsement, I don't know, however I would be surprised if you only got 11 hours of motion time split between 2 pilots.
I suspect that the 22 hours (11 fixed and 11 motion) is per pilot - though ALL that being said 11 hours is a funny number - all of my sim sessions have been 4 hours each....the 737 endorsement I did was 10 4 hour sessions of which 9 were motion.
commander adama
You personal attack on me is noted, I am not on any drugs, if you have any constructive comments to make on the discussion so far I am all ears.
Mr.Buzzy,
I see a significant differance between the two, when your being paid a training wage the employer has the risk to pay for your training, and additional training if any that is required to get you to standard. When you pay for an endorsement if you dont pass your check flight you are effectively out of a job with a bare endorsement, and no line training, which is very difficult to find work with.
If you also pay for your endorsement you are not earning money whilst training, at least with a training wage you are being paid to undertake training. Also with a training wage it provides more incentive for an employer to get you to work quicker as they will want to see a return on the investment they have made.
Dehavillanddriver
Reading spinouts post I am seeing 11x4hour sessions between two pilots, 44 hrs total.
404 Titan
I will take you word for it, I am not an accountant, I just look at an expense as the time I write the cheque or pay the cash, I dont see an endorsement as an intangeable asset, its value to me is worth less than goodwill.
rescue 1
I am hearing what Big Jan is saying, they are short of pilots, and more people are not taking up offers or leaving than they can cope with. If NJS do take it I see them having bigger problems as the more senior people in the company who would go for the positions, and overseas experience has shown that people over 50 going to the bus for the first time tend to fail more. It has been mooted that this is due to not understanding the level of automation and computers on the aircraft. Dont know how many computer resets you can do on a 146/RJ, you have a heap on the 320.
You personal attack on me is noted, I am not on any drugs, if you have any constructive comments to make on the discussion so far I am all ears.
Mr.Buzzy,
I see a significant differance between the two, when your being paid a training wage the employer has the risk to pay for your training, and additional training if any that is required to get you to standard. When you pay for an endorsement if you dont pass your check flight you are effectively out of a job with a bare endorsement, and no line training, which is very difficult to find work with.
If you also pay for your endorsement you are not earning money whilst training, at least with a training wage you are being paid to undertake training. Also with a training wage it provides more incentive for an employer to get you to work quicker as they will want to see a return on the investment they have made.
Dehavillanddriver
Reading spinouts post I am seeing 11x4hour sessions between two pilots, 44 hrs total.
404 Titan
I will take you word for it, I am not an accountant, I just look at an expense as the time I write the cheque or pay the cash, I dont see an endorsement as an intangeable asset, its value to me is worth less than goodwill.
rescue 1
I am hearing what Big Jan is saying, they are short of pilots, and more people are not taking up offers or leaving than they can cope with. If NJS do take it I see them having bigger problems as the more senior people in the company who would go for the positions, and overseas experience has shown that people over 50 going to the bus for the first time tend to fail more. It has been mooted that this is due to not understanding the level of automation and computers on the aircraft. Dont know how many computer resets you can do on a 146/RJ, you have a heap on the 320.
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I don't think so Mr B. I would never work for an airline that fleeced its pilots for an endorsment. Trust me, its only the start. I hear you have to provide your own Jepps these days and pay for the update service as well. I wonder how long it will be before they start charging for your IR renewal, could probably turn a nice profit there!
Pretty demoralising wouldn't you say. I mean, why not get walked on a little more. If your pride allows you to do this type of thing, if you are happy to be devalued to that extent, then good for you. Frankly I would do something else if I had an employer like that.
Pretty demoralising wouldn't you say. I mean, why not get walked on a little more. If your pride allows you to do this type of thing, if you are happy to be devalued to that extent, then good for you. Frankly I would do something else if I had an employer like that.
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"Dont know how many computer resets you can do on a 146/RJ, you have a heap on the 320. "
Therefore makes it really tricky to fly huh?
What nonsense.
New A320's, unlike the old Ansett aircraft, do not need the cb concerto after nearly every start.
Therefore makes it really tricky to fly huh?
What nonsense.
New A320's, unlike the old Ansett aircraft, do not need the cb concerto after nearly every start.
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RTFORU,
We dont pay for our Jepps, or ammendments, or whatever. Yes agreed, we no longer work on the gravy train of 20 years ago. Plenty of things have changed. Id just be careful blaming LC pilots of today for the state of affairs. Look about at almost every other industy and realise that globally employers are having their way with staff.
So... your son or daughter has just gained the experience to apply to the airlines and he or she doenst have HSC. What would your honest advice to him or her be?
Or your son or daughter missed out at QF after 2 attempts? Would you still spruke off about paying for endorsements? Would you be happy to see them overtaken by thousands of pilots globally that would be more than willing to guarantee some return of service, beit through training bonds, training wages or funding the training personally?
We dont pay for our Jepps, or ammendments, or whatever. Yes agreed, we no longer work on the gravy train of 20 years ago. Plenty of things have changed. Id just be careful blaming LC pilots of today for the state of affairs. Look about at almost every other industy and realise that globally employers are having their way with staff.
So... your son or daughter has just gained the experience to apply to the airlines and he or she doenst have HSC. What would your honest advice to him or her be?
Or your son or daughter missed out at QF after 2 attempts? Would you still spruke off about paying for endorsements? Would you be happy to see them overtaken by thousands of pilots globally that would be more than willing to guarantee some return of service, beit through training bonds, training wages or funding the training personally?
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commander assdama is incapable of a logical and reasoned discussion, a search through his posts when he once was thumpa, but got banned for being a bottom dweller, and now since his name change to assdama would reveal that.
He's the kind of arrogant preek that would eat CRM for breakfast, for his own sake, he should be happy that he got into Nopulse when he did, as the QF OPQ would of knocked him out for sure.
Assdama, for your own sake, you should really shut your mouth, as you are on a better deal now than you were before, your only giving your mates a bad name.
Take a walk assdama, a very big one, and while your there, your comments really do match whats in your lower intestine.....
He's the kind of arrogant preek that would eat CRM for breakfast, for his own sake, he should be happy that he got into Nopulse when he did, as the QF OPQ would of knocked him out for sure.
Assdama, for your own sake, you should really shut your mouth, as you are on a better deal now than you were before, your only giving your mates a bad name.
Take a walk assdama, a very big one, and while your there, your comments really do match whats in your lower intestine.....
I'd like to see your numbers on that one DhD - I have a feeling that they're a little out of kilter...
However, I'll be happy for you to prove me wrong - fire away
However, I'll be happy for you to prove me wrong - fire away
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Yes agreed, we no longer work on the gravy train of 20 years ago.
To answer your question regarding sons and daughters, thats easy. Firstly, I would not advise my kids to go into aviation in the first place.
Secondly, If they did it anyway, I would do as I have always done, I would look out for them. What I mean by that is that I would make sure they were not being taken advantage of by unscrupulous people. I would advise them to seek out an airline that didn't ask them to put themselves in debt, I would tell them that if that meant going and getting their HSC, then do it. I would probably also point out to them that if they had missed out on QF or CX or any other descent airline, then maybe there's a message in that.
I'm sorry, I just can't go along with this LCC crap. Fine, if you want to run an airline on the cheap go for for it but don't exploit desperate people who get sucked up in the romance of flying and take their last dollar so that you can pump up your bottom line!