QF S/O changes
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grrowler and buzzy, sure it's easy enough to knock the role of an S/O, but with the same stone you can't expect the 'highest standards of professionalism' as a pilot. Either they truly are monkeys along for the ride with the responsibility that goes with it, or they're professional pilots that contribute effectively to the operation.
I get the impression its not necessarily the skill level of S/Os, but the seat change that precipitated this whole shebang. I've never, ever seen an occurance with an S/O in the seat...
Why not just practice seat changing in sims rather than NDB approaches? What is more relevant!? (or used to be at least). Does 'world best practice' include having S/Os at all?
Lancer
I get the impression its not necessarily the skill level of S/Os, but the seat change that precipitated this whole shebang. I've never, ever seen an occurance with an S/O in the seat...
Why not just practice seat changing in sims rather than NDB approaches? What is more relevant!? (or used to be at least). Does 'world best practice' include having S/Os at all?
Lancer
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Agreed *Lancer*
Im certainly more relaxed knowing that seat changing isnt taking place as low as 3000 feet with approach flap.... Or was that just a rumour?
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Im certainly more relaxed knowing that seat changing isnt taking place as low as 3000 feet with approach flap.... Or was that just a rumour?
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Mr Buzzy before the 5000' rule that was standard. Normal, and assuming it was not a busy environ., quite safe and excellent practice. Plenty of after take off clean ups and ILS intercepts and configurations for S/Os.
(Pilot in Command for FS 2002 taught me how to fly, all licence renewals were practiced on that, so dont joke about it! It WAS THE ONLY TRAINING WE GOT!! )
(Pilot in Command for FS 2002 taught me how to fly, all licence renewals were practiced on that, so dont joke about it! It WAS THE ONLY TRAINING WE GOT!! )
*Lancer*,
no doubt.
But the point I was making was that surely, while it may help morale, there is no real need for QF to provide more sim sessions to SO's so they can practice twirling and pressing the autopilot buttons, or even if they wanted to "live on the edge" and handfly the climb and descent.
I do appreciate that it must be quite demoralising and, as someone mentioned, deskilling (although I'm saying no more so than before), but hasn't this always been the role of the SO?
no doubt.
But the point I was making was that surely, while it may help morale, there is no real need for QF to provide more sim sessions to SO's so they can practice twirling and pressing the autopilot buttons, or even if they wanted to "live on the edge" and handfly the climb and descent.
I do appreciate that it must be quite demoralising and, as someone mentioned, deskilling (although I'm saying no more so than before), but hasn't this always been the role of the SO?
Ah, I must be getting too old for this caper! I remeber when captains were trusted to make judgement calls about all sorts of things including when to let the S/O in the seat for a fly. Can we imagine it - captains actually being in charge of their aircraft! Even more, being allowed to manage their crews as they saw fit. Subject only to the absolute requirement to be safe at all times. "Tell 'im 'ees dreamin'"
I must have had a bit too much Christmas cheer!
I must have had a bit too much Christmas cheer!
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Now guys remember when you were a budding pilot and wanting more than ever to get that first airline job and you wouldn't care if it was a S/O.... remember next time you start to verbaly bash these people that they are FELLOW AVIATORS trying to make a living and trying to work their way up the ladder just as everyone did.
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texan, you should know that will make no difference on PPRUNE, in fact in real life too - Aviators have a habit of being able to act like a bunch of brats, stab each other in the back etc etc etc, in many cases I suspect aviators are probably the best at it- they get so much practice at it, its not funny.
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A warning...
Here in Dumerica, it seems that there has been a complete reversal of this policy. First of all, Southwest Airlines, the only really profitable airline here now has always required a 737 endorsement and 1,000 hours of PIC turbine time to interview as a First Officer.
Netjets, the world's largest operator of fractional jets, now numbering 533, requires 2,500 tt and 500 multi to get an interview. My new hire class averaged 7,800 hours. We type all of our first officers and once they get 150 tt in type they can fly the left seat without pax at the captain's discretion. This is still not considered PIC time.
What we have found is that the training costs have plummeted within this culture. The pilot group is quite cohesive, the respect for position is not diluted, the upgrades are easier and morale through an increase in participation has taken away the monotony of the work week.
I see a lot of things about the "new" Australian airspace culture that concern me greatly. Diluting the tasks of junior officers, paying lip-service to training regimen and neglecting their worthwhile contributions to the operating environment could have disastrous results.
Netjets, the world's largest operator of fractional jets, now numbering 533, requires 2,500 tt and 500 multi to get an interview. My new hire class averaged 7,800 hours. We type all of our first officers and once they get 150 tt in type they can fly the left seat without pax at the captain's discretion. This is still not considered PIC time.
What we have found is that the training costs have plummeted within this culture. The pilot group is quite cohesive, the respect for position is not diluted, the upgrades are easier and morale through an increase in participation has taken away the monotony of the work week.
I see a lot of things about the "new" Australian airspace culture that concern me greatly. Diluting the tasks of junior officers, paying lip-service to training regimen and neglecting their worthwhile contributions to the operating environment could have disastrous results.
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Yes, I concede the 330 Fathom. Regarding the other two types though, one wonders why they are pending. It was made quite clear that there was a 'safety' aspect considered in the decision, which one would've thought would lead to the other types being included pronto. Evidently not though. Still, people far wiser than I come up with Company Orders and policies, such as the one where the only instruction was that if we have a multiple engine flameout, we should accomplish the multiple engine flameout checklist.
The company appears - on the surface at least - to be in a state of denial that the policy will have, when mixed with factors such as lack of availability of sim time, etc, any detrimental effect on training, moral, motivation and skill levels.
The company appears - on the surface at least - to be in a state of denial that the policy will have, when mixed with factors such as lack of availability of sim time, etc, any detrimental effect on training, moral, motivation and skill levels.
Last edited by DutchRoll; 31st Dec 2004 at 23:38.
Sprucegoose
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Now, I have'nt flown either, as/or with an SO, but I would have thought that it would be quite acceptable for the SO to be at the controls for landing, in fact, even encouraged.
Forgive me if I have missed the point, but are'nt the 2 main reasons for having an SO:
1, to relieve the crew (this should include landings).
2, to learn the command judgements needed to oneday fill the seat of the guy with the size 62 hat?
Now as for changing seats below the transition, this is preposterous!!
Surely it is imperative that the landing crew, regardless of which 2 crew members are going to occupy those positions, should be seated well before transition, if not prior to top of descent.
How can anyone be expected to have the necessary level of situational awareness, by taking their seat in the last 5 mins of a flight?
Is it just me? Or am I missing the point here?
Cheers, HH.
Forgive me if I have missed the point, but are'nt the 2 main reasons for having an SO:
1, to relieve the crew (this should include landings).
2, to learn the command judgements needed to oneday fill the seat of the guy with the size 62 hat?
Now as for changing seats below the transition, this is preposterous!!
Surely it is imperative that the landing crew, regardless of which 2 crew members are going to occupy those positions, should be seated well before transition, if not prior to top of descent.
How can anyone be expected to have the necessary level of situational awareness, by taking their seat in the last 5 mins of a flight?
Is it just me? Or am I missing the point here?
Cheers, HH.
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It would be interesting to see if CASA have a view on this. Who knows, maybe Qantas will have to invest in a small jet or two for training?
Also, any truth that QF SO's now have to do some form of assessment sim to be considered for upgrade to FO?
Also, any truth that QF SO's now have to do some form of assessment sim to be considered for upgrade to FO?
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So's?
Well maybe if QF employed pilots like 99% of the rest of the worlds airlines they wouldn't be needed.
Given every other major airline trains people into the right seat with no major problems what gives?
Let me guess?
Wouldn't be the fact that a whole lot of sons and daughters would miss out on the red carpet treatment.
They might even have to learn how to fly before they get a real job!
Maybe even make it a requirement to have an ATPL prior to starting work with them.
Nice to see IATA clamping down where CASA and the Government have let the QF be turned into a part time nursery/flying school/flying club for the benefit of the few.
Imagine putting someone with 6500hrs in as a SO to "learn" how to fly again.
Seems like everyone else saves money training direct to FO and its just as safe if not safer as you have nobody with less than 2500-3000 hrs on the flightdeck.
Sounds good to me.
Well maybe if QF employed pilots like 99% of the rest of the worlds airlines they wouldn't be needed.
Given every other major airline trains people into the right seat with no major problems what gives?
Let me guess?
Wouldn't be the fact that a whole lot of sons and daughters would miss out on the red carpet treatment.
They might even have to learn how to fly before they get a real job!
Maybe even make it a requirement to have an ATPL prior to starting work with them.
Nice to see IATA clamping down where CASA and the Government have let the QF be turned into a part time nursery/flying school/flying club for the benefit of the few.
Imagine putting someone with 6500hrs in as a SO to "learn" how to fly again.
Seems like everyone else saves money training direct to FO and its just as safe if not safer as you have nobody with less than 2500-3000 hrs on the flightdeck.
Sounds good to me.
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Not as such, Z Force. They look at the training history of each promotional candidate and if there are any doubts (eg, several low sim scores in a particular area), they may require an assessment sim or two. The majority of S/Os don't need to do them for promotional training.
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Imagine putting someone with 6500hrs in as a SO to "learn" how to fly again.
Grandpa Aerotart
S/Os are a cheap way to extend duty times on long haul...that's the be all and end all of it. Cruise relief pilots...otherwise you'd need 2 captains and 1 F/O generally....or at least 1 captain and two F/Os (one a SFO)...either option is more expensive in a beancounters mind...they know the cost of everything and the value of nothing after all.
tinpis I would be very surprised..nay stunned, if QF were giving half the landings to the autopilot...2-3% would be more like it and that only so the crews can stay current for autoland just prior to each sim recurrent....if they hadn't actually done one for real in the previous 6 mths.
tinpis I would be very surprised..nay stunned, if QF were giving half the landings to the autopilot...2-3% would be more like it and that only so the crews can stay current for autoland just prior to each sim recurrent....if they hadn't actually done one for real in the previous 6 mths.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 7th Jan 2005 at 08:13.