airport security hitlers
Join Date: Oct 2002
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To all of those who think that airport securitar is making us safer, can you please explain why it is that the only attempted highjacking in Australia happened AFTER the securitar nazis and sky martials were in place, and why it is that the securitar was one hundred percent ineffective in stopping it?
For those who don't recall I am discussing the chopsticks that were flying between MEL and HBA on the 717, that were stopped by the cabin crew - not the securitar.
I would be willing to bet that had all the aircraft securitar hype not been around this poor crazed unfortunate would have unleashed his insanity elsewhere - ie the securitar senario influenced this individual to carry out a high jacking attempt on an aircraft rather than some other form of madness.
For those who don't recall I am discussing the chopsticks that were flying between MEL and HBA on the 717, that were stopped by the cabin crew - not the securitar.
I would be willing to bet that had all the aircraft securitar hype not been around this poor crazed unfortunate would have unleashed his insanity elsewhere - ie the securitar senario influenced this individual to carry out a high jacking attempt on an aircraft rather than some other form of madness.
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Join Date: May 2000
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Applehead, Before My reply to you gets wiped again, please note those comments I made were some years prior to 9/11 and when people could still have a laugh. Now before this evolves into a d**k measuring contest, I do have an ATPL, and no I only use a sim for base checks. So next time you want to be a Tool head instead of an apple head have a bit more to drink.
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As far as I knew sky martials were active on mainline flights only - not impulse flights at the time. If however they were there and watched flight crew copping head wounds then they certainly aren't the people that I want protecting me !!
Once again a 100% failure if that was the case, yet I could so see how the securitar would pat it's self on the back for having protected the sanctity of it's weapons even though the cost to the cabin crew was serious injury. Just like somehow it must have been OK for a bouncer in Melbourne to kill a (famous) patron because the patron verbally taunted him (maybe) eventhough the patron was intoxicated.
I am thinking that the root problem that is being discussed in this thread is that perhaps there is nobody watching the watchers, and that the solution is to make THEM answerable when their action is inappropriate.
If you are a PAX you can go to court for just saying the swong thing in jest, yet securitar seem to have a license to do what ever they want. Time for a public enquiry.
Once again a 100% failure if that was the case, yet I could so see how the securitar would pat it's self on the back for having protected the sanctity of it's weapons even though the cost to the cabin crew was serious injury. Just like somehow it must have been OK for a bouncer in Melbourne to kill a (famous) patron because the patron verbally taunted him (maybe) eventhough the patron was intoxicated.
I am thinking that the root problem that is being discussed in this thread is that perhaps there is nobody watching the watchers, and that the solution is to make THEM answerable when their action is inappropriate.
If you are a PAX you can go to court for just saying the swong thing in jest, yet securitar seem to have a license to do what ever they want. Time for a public enquiry.
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Comparing apples with oranges there I feel, Pullock. Bouncers aren't in the same league as Air Marshalls. The flyers are highly trained professionals, and therin lies the difference.
A "bouncer" probably would have intervened. The trained professionals wouldn't. On this occasion the bouncer might have saved the day, but what if there were other hijackers on board? If this were the case, our bouncer now has trouble, and probably would have screwed up.
Your 20/20 hindsight is marvellous, but when all hell is breaking loose, the air marshalls must rely on their discipline and training. Thats why they are doing this job and not standing out the front of a pub.
A "bouncer" probably would have intervened. The trained professionals wouldn't. On this occasion the bouncer might have saved the day, but what if there were other hijackers on board? If this were the case, our bouncer now has trouble, and probably would have screwed up.
Your 20/20 hindsight is marvellous, but when all hell is breaking loose, the air marshalls must rely on their discipline and training. Thats why they are doing this job and not standing out the front of a pub.
Nunc est bibendum
I'm not sure how many have seen the introductory package for air crew on ASOs but I'm not particularly comfortable with the subject coming up and being discussed at any length on a public forum. I'll just say that if they were on board the 717 then I'm bitterly disappointed as I would have thought this was the EXACT situation where they'd be intervening and controlling the cabin in short shrift. If they'r'e not going to intervene in an attempted hijacking, what's the use of having them?!?!?They will have ensured that they weren't compromised only to find out that the aircraft is under someone else's control! Perhaps a review of the material provided to crew who can expect them on their aircraft would provide answers for those who need to know.
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People
The security people are doing only what they are paid to do, albiet some with greater zeal that others.
Now a question for the airport authorities, ie. the entities that actually pay the bills for this 'security':
Would you need all the 'security' people doing all that screeing, if only you let ticketed passengers (and crew/staff with ASIC cards) past the screening areas. eg. most USA/EUR airports.
I could and still never see the need to actually see someone walk through the airstairs. I recommend drop 'em and collect 'em at the gutter.
The security people are doing only what they are paid to do, albiet some with greater zeal that others.
Now a question for the airport authorities, ie. the entities that actually pay the bills for this 'security':
Would you need all the 'security' people doing all that screeing, if only you let ticketed passengers (and crew/staff with ASIC cards) past the screening areas. eg. most USA/EUR airports.
I could and still never see the need to actually see someone walk through the airstairs. I recommend drop 'em and collect 'em at the gutter.
Join Date: Oct 2002
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G'day All,
It seems to me that the security measures in place are shutting the gate after the horse has bolted. After Sep 11 I don't think a bunch of passengers will sit idly by while they are hijacked. The old passenger advice was in the event of a hijacking sit tight, do what they say, aircraft lands, lots of negotiations and hijackers are removed by the heroic special forces/police/chicken stranglers/insert preferred name.
Sep 11 changed all that. It also changed things for politicians who in order to look like they are doing something put in place a bunch of draconian legislation about tightening airport security. The fact the 'weapons' used were entirely legal on aircraft in the US at the time didn't seem to matter.
As somebody rightly said before the security guys are just obeying these draconian laws. Here's an example. In a previous life I was a Black Hawk pilot and my crew were tasked to pick up a senior officer from Brisbane Airport. Said officer was arriving in Brisbane by RPT.
We lob into Brisbane and the ATC folks there could not have been more helpful and we parked in a bay at the domestic terminal. This officer was the most senior in the Army and still is, and most people will know him from the news. As the aircraft captain I did the polite thing and went inside the terminal to meet the officer. In a vain attempt to expedite things I at least left behind my Leatherman, dog tags etc.
After concluding things in the terminal, I had to get back out onto the tarmac. Despite the guard recognising my passenger and that we were wearing the same uniform etc. I still had to strip down to Tshirt and trousers to get through security. 20 minutes later I'm back on the tarmac and on the way.
No offence, but I was a member of one of the organisations that are there to respond to terrorist threats with the one of the bosses. You would think there would be a better way or that the security guy would have some discretion. Not under our draconian law.
Draconian laws as a knee jerk reaction are a recipe for disaster. Much like an armoured cockpit door.
Weapons Hot,
Great question about non flyers on the airside of security. They will probably tell you something about risk management and security experts etc. The real answer is that all the retailers and restaraunts etc that they invested a lot of money to put there will not be able to charge $10 for a tuna sandwich and they\'ll dip out on their cut.
Shoot Kath and Kel Knight had a whole honeymoon at Tullamarine without taking off.
It seems to me that the security measures in place are shutting the gate after the horse has bolted. After Sep 11 I don't think a bunch of passengers will sit idly by while they are hijacked. The old passenger advice was in the event of a hijacking sit tight, do what they say, aircraft lands, lots of negotiations and hijackers are removed by the heroic special forces/police/chicken stranglers/insert preferred name.
Sep 11 changed all that. It also changed things for politicians who in order to look like they are doing something put in place a bunch of draconian legislation about tightening airport security. The fact the 'weapons' used were entirely legal on aircraft in the US at the time didn't seem to matter.
As somebody rightly said before the security guys are just obeying these draconian laws. Here's an example. In a previous life I was a Black Hawk pilot and my crew were tasked to pick up a senior officer from Brisbane Airport. Said officer was arriving in Brisbane by RPT.
We lob into Brisbane and the ATC folks there could not have been more helpful and we parked in a bay at the domestic terminal. This officer was the most senior in the Army and still is, and most people will know him from the news. As the aircraft captain I did the polite thing and went inside the terminal to meet the officer. In a vain attempt to expedite things I at least left behind my Leatherman, dog tags etc.
After concluding things in the terminal, I had to get back out onto the tarmac. Despite the guard recognising my passenger and that we were wearing the same uniform etc. I still had to strip down to Tshirt and trousers to get through security. 20 minutes later I'm back on the tarmac and on the way.
No offence, but I was a member of one of the organisations that are there to respond to terrorist threats with the one of the bosses. You would think there would be a better way or that the security guy would have some discretion. Not under our draconian law.
Draconian laws as a knee jerk reaction are a recipe for disaster. Much like an armoured cockpit door.
Weapons Hot,
Great question about non flyers on the airside of security. They will probably tell you something about risk management and security experts etc. The real answer is that all the retailers and restaraunts etc that they invested a lot of money to put there will not be able to charge $10 for a tuna sandwich and they\'ll dip out on their cut.
Shoot Kath and Kel Knight had a whole honeymoon at Tullamarine without taking off.
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Well Said Homer_Jay. I completely agree with you that the problem lies squarely in the draconian nnature of the laws, but would also go further and say that the problem is also resident in the draconian nature in which the laws are applied by the authoritars who want to have more authoritar.
Like you I think that these laws in their current format are as useless as a bullet proof cockpit door. I just hope that someone out there is listening to reason and going to fix these laws, as under these laws the terrists have already won.
Like you I think that these laws in their current format are as useless as a bullet proof cockpit door. I just hope that someone out there is listening to reason and going to fix these laws, as under these laws the terrists have already won.
