airport security hitlers
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Capt. Claret
I totally agree with your comments; indeed I committed an offense by entering a sterile area through the aerobridge. Here in lies the systematic failure of this system; as technically I committed an offense by doing a walk around in DRW in a secure area and when I went inside the terminal to get a WX printout, as I had not been screened in BNE where I departed. Similarly, we commit an offense every time we change an aircraft without being screened. When I raised these inconsistencies with my airlines head of security I was told, “we don’t talk about that, and I’m happy not to know that it happens!” The point here is that our companies require us to commit an offense every day in order to do our jobs, whilst you and I will be the ones in court if some nerd from DOTARS wants to make a point. Whilst I totally agree with your comments Claret, I believe this is security gone mad, akin to the USA patriot act!
Grrowler - Wake up son! Sadly you’ve pissed the point. A Valid ASIC verifies the holder as someone permitted to be unsupervised in the secure area. If you are stating the integrity of the ASIC ID has been compromised by fraud than I suggest you ring the federal police immediately; otherwise we can assume they are valid and hence the holder should not be subject to the same degree of scrutiny of a non holder. This is simple logic is it not? Perhaps you have forgotten the 4 aircraft on 9-11-01 were hijacked by pax, not a crew member. As, I have stated; crew in the states are waived through, as this is logical. Also you intimate that I am advocating as a pilot I should not “be subjected to this degrading procedure.” Yes you are correct, neither should my crew, as we all hold valid ASICs’; now the Group 4 morons have time to search more pax; like the ones who carried box cutters aboard 4 airplanes in 2001 after being screened by out-sourced, untrained secrua-goons, such as Group 4, and those who could do it easily again in any Oz port today. Obviously, you don’t work for any of the 3 carriers and have to put up with Group 4 tyranny everyday, as I believe this is about the only issue we all agree on. Best of luck with stage one, perhaps one day we will give you 2 bars also and then you will know what its like.
Maxgrad sums the situation up;
As for thinking im special because im a pilot; get real, those days are over in Oz.
I totally agree with your comments; indeed I committed an offense by entering a sterile area through the aerobridge. Here in lies the systematic failure of this system; as technically I committed an offense by doing a walk around in DRW in a secure area and when I went inside the terminal to get a WX printout, as I had not been screened in BNE where I departed. Similarly, we commit an offense every time we change an aircraft without being screened. When I raised these inconsistencies with my airlines head of security I was told, “we don’t talk about that, and I’m happy not to know that it happens!” The point here is that our companies require us to commit an offense every day in order to do our jobs, whilst you and I will be the ones in court if some nerd from DOTARS wants to make a point. Whilst I totally agree with your comments Claret, I believe this is security gone mad, akin to the USA patriot act!
Grrowler - Wake up son! Sadly you’ve pissed the point. A Valid ASIC verifies the holder as someone permitted to be unsupervised in the secure area. If you are stating the integrity of the ASIC ID has been compromised by fraud than I suggest you ring the federal police immediately; otherwise we can assume they are valid and hence the holder should not be subject to the same degree of scrutiny of a non holder. This is simple logic is it not? Perhaps you have forgotten the 4 aircraft on 9-11-01 were hijacked by pax, not a crew member. As, I have stated; crew in the states are waived through, as this is logical. Also you intimate that I am advocating as a pilot I should not “be subjected to this degrading procedure.” Yes you are correct, neither should my crew, as we all hold valid ASICs’; now the Group 4 morons have time to search more pax; like the ones who carried box cutters aboard 4 airplanes in 2001 after being screened by out-sourced, untrained secrua-goons, such as Group 4, and those who could do it easily again in any Oz port today. Obviously, you don’t work for any of the 3 carriers and have to put up with Group 4 tyranny everyday, as I believe this is about the only issue we all agree on. Best of luck with stage one, perhaps one day we will give you 2 bars also and then you will know what its like.
Maxgrad sums the situation up;
Is there some form of perverse logic to this?
Last edited by BankAngle50; 5th Dec 2004 at 13:13.
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G'day All,
Can understand to a small degree where these people are coming from however I believe that these analy retentive losers are on a mission to prove themselves after having failed the police acadamy at goulborn. Have been pulled up for my wings - apparently being a stabbing device and my FO got pulled up on a bomb explosions test cause he had JetA1 on his hands from a fuel test.
After trying to be nice the situation got out of hand as the wannabe copper tried to spread his authority. Needless to say after some proper negotiations, Mr invincible at security lost his job and I no longer had to take my wings off to get to my crew room.
From what i hear he wasn't the first to get the sack. Jetstar and Virgin crew have been copping a bit of flak from those that hail at gate 47 in sydney(or around there) and this is only one of numerous sackings that have occured due to over zealous so called security people. Perhaps in time these losers will learn that it's not hard to get on with fellow airport staff............but I doubt it.
Can understand to a small degree where these people are coming from however I believe that these analy retentive losers are on a mission to prove themselves after having failed the police acadamy at goulborn. Have been pulled up for my wings - apparently being a stabbing device and my FO got pulled up on a bomb explosions test cause he had JetA1 on his hands from a fuel test.
After trying to be nice the situation got out of hand as the wannabe copper tried to spread his authority. Needless to say after some proper negotiations, Mr invincible at security lost his job and I no longer had to take my wings off to get to my crew room.
From what i hear he wasn't the first to get the sack. Jetstar and Virgin crew have been copping a bit of flak from those that hail at gate 47 in sydney(or around there) and this is only one of numerous sackings that have occured due to over zealous so called security people. Perhaps in time these losers will learn that it's not hard to get on with fellow airport staff............but I doubt it.
Last edited by Woomera; 7th Dec 2004 at 22:38.
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I particularly like the expression on the Security Nazi's face when he sees the Piece that I declare prior to going thru metal detector (Mil Pilot flying Small Mil Jet over Croc infected river area - SOP to carry 9mm pistol & ammo then). Then had small chat with security manager - produced letter drafted weeks prior explaining same, and finally getting nod to walk to two seated aircraft, AND STILL BEING ASKED TO GO THRU METAL DETECTOR. Just in case either one of us hijacked ourselves using further concealed weapons. Maybe if I was going to do some damage, I would have done it with a fully armed mil aircraft...
BankAngle50,
Sorry if I ruffled your feathers "sir", can I
you off? Maybe that'll help with my stage 1...moron.
I think your point is that because you have gone through the checks to get an ASIC, you are a "good bloke/ shiela" and therefore shouldn't need to be screened. Less scrutiny, perhaps, but being waved through as you suggested, no way.
The ASIC is only as good as the system checking on it, which at the moment is average, on that we agree. I'm saying as long as the goon at checkpoint doesn't have the intelligence or a suitable system in place to discern your "valid" ASIC from your Mens Gallery card, it isn't a suitable screening device.
And regardless, just because you hold an ASIC, doesn't mean you can't be carrying things on your person that shouldn't be on aircraft, and therefore must be subjected to screening. I'm always amazed by the number of ASIC cards getting around an airport. All it takes is for one of them to know a "sinistered-minded person" and in your proposed system we could have a free-for-all.
I'm sorry but everything coming onboard an aircraft should be screened, and I'm afraid that includes everyone from Captain 5-Bars (that'd be you hey?) down to 4th Officer Wannabe (that must be me).
Sorry if I ruffled your feathers "sir", can I
you off? Maybe that'll help with my stage 1...moron.I think your point is that because you have gone through the checks to get an ASIC, you are a "good bloke/ shiela" and therefore shouldn't need to be screened. Less scrutiny, perhaps, but being waved through as you suggested, no way.
The ASIC is only as good as the system checking on it, which at the moment is average, on that we agree. I'm saying as long as the goon at checkpoint doesn't have the intelligence or a suitable system in place to discern your "valid" ASIC from your Mens Gallery card, it isn't a suitable screening device.
And regardless, just because you hold an ASIC, doesn't mean you can't be carrying things on your person that shouldn't be on aircraft, and therefore must be subjected to screening. I'm always amazed by the number of ASIC cards getting around an airport. All it takes is for one of them to know a "sinistered-minded person" and in your proposed system we could have a free-for-all.
I'm sorry but everything coming onboard an aircraft should be screened, and I'm afraid that includes everyone from Captain 5-Bars (that'd be you hey?) down to 4th Officer Wannabe (that must be me).
Bottums Up
BankAngle50
We're in heated agreement.
grrowler
If the ASIC is so prone to failure as a security measure, WTF do we have to have one?
The gummint mandated that all Australian ASIC had to be reissued to improve security. Then couldn't do the ASIO & AFP and other checks in a timely fashion, thus the gummint deadline couldn't be met.
Why screen tech crew? They don't need to smuggle some weapon on bpard to hijack themselves!
We're in heated agreement.
grrowler
If the ASIC is so prone to failure as a security measure, WTF do we have to have one?
The gummint mandated that all Australian ASIC had to be reissued to improve security. Then couldn't do the ASIO & AFP and other checks in a timely fashion, thus the gummint deadline couldn't be met.
Why screen tech crew? They don't need to smuggle some weapon on bpard to hijack themselves!
Capt Claret,
I have to say they are separate issues. We have ASIC's to give appropriate ppl access to airside, or a secure area, we have security checkpoints to ensure no one is carrying any item which could harm an aircraft.
Have a look at some of the cretins you see drifting around the airport with an ASIC card, do you believe they should all be waved through security? As I said, then it would only take one unscrupulous or even naive character with an ASIC to take something through for his/ her mate and it's a security breach. Obviously tech-crew aren't gonna hijack their own flight (egyptair?) but what would stop them from passing on items to passengers on another flight?
Why take the risk? Not much of a choice, but I would rather have secura-goon searching me for trouser-concealed stabbin devices than some psycho trying to use it on me in flight.
I have to say they are separate issues. We have ASIC's to give appropriate ppl access to airside, or a secure area, we have security checkpoints to ensure no one is carrying any item which could harm an aircraft.
Have a look at some of the cretins you see drifting around the airport with an ASIC card, do you believe they should all be waved through security? As I said, then it would only take one unscrupulous or even naive character with an ASIC to take something through for his/ her mate and it's a security breach. Obviously tech-crew aren't gonna hijack their own flight (egyptair?) but what would stop them from passing on items to passengers on another flight?
Why take the risk? Not much of a choice, but I would rather have secura-goon searching me for trouser-concealed stabbin devices than some psycho trying to use it on me in flight.
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It does get a bit over the top, but I'll play devils advocate.
What happens if as you are leaving home for work you friendly next door neighbour terrorist, who has worked out that you are a pilot and not subject to security checks, comes in with his mates, takes your family hostage and tells you to take his bomb, guns or whatever through security.
As you have mentioned we can all bypass security now, but at least being seen by the public going through security on the odd occasion might act as a deterent.
I thought the ASIC was more for display once you are airside, so that other holders of ASIC's in the area know you have not snuck in and have a valid reason to be there.
No system will ever be perfect, and some common would be nice, but what do you do.
What happens if as you are leaving home for work you friendly next door neighbour terrorist, who has worked out that you are a pilot and not subject to security checks, comes in with his mates, takes your family hostage and tells you to take his bomb, guns or whatever through security.
As you have mentioned we can all bypass security now, but at least being seen by the public going through security on the odd occasion might act as a deterent.
I thought the ASIC was more for display once you are airside, so that other holders of ASIC's in the area know you have not snuck in and have a valid reason to be there.
No system will ever be perfect, and some common would be nice, but what do you do.
Bottums Up
How's it Hanging
To take your scenario one step further.
Your friendly next door neighbour terrorist takes family hostage and says "if you don't fly your aeroplane into Pine Gap/Harbour Bridge/Opera House/pick target, well you'll return home to find them raped with throats cut!"
Poor old bloggs passes through security with nothing more sinister than his deadly hands, which he'll wrap around the controls. Will he do as bid though?
To take your scenario one step further.
Your friendly next door neighbour terrorist takes family hostage and says "if you don't fly your aeroplane into Pine Gap/Harbour Bridge/Opera House/pick target, well you'll return home to find them raped with throats cut!"
Poor old bloggs passes through security with nothing more sinister than his deadly hands, which he'll wrap around the controls. Will he do as bid though?
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To all those who think that by having and wearing an ASIC and wearing the splendid uniform warrants a free pass to stride unhindered past any security when within an airport, step down off your over inflated self absorbed inward looking egotistical nav bag and open your eyes to the fact that just perhaps there is a reason for screening people (and that other species known as pilot)
AS hard as it may be for some of our godlike brethren
to be subjected to screening at entry to sterile areas, especially when it then lowers them to that of the common person (who all wish they were like you) it is there for yours and everyone else’s safety.
Having everyone subjected to the same rules and processes not only reduces the risk of unwarranted persons/objects etc from getting onto your or my aircraft but acts as a deterrent for anyone looking for an easy chink in the armour as a way of bypassing the screening and getting something or someone you DON'T want on your aircraft.
Yes, like ANYTHING, there can be instances where you may think that the process has gone too far for whatever reason. At times like these, bite your tongue, banish those thoughts of greatness when mentally comparing yourself to the 'wannabe cop', smile, mention the poor cricket result and comply with what you are being asked. Hey, the security guard might even have a nice thought about you.
If this is too much for the ego to take, then write to the minister of transport and apply for a solid gold ASIC card to go with the solid gold ego.
Unbelievable.
And hows it hanging, as much as you may be attempting to contribute to and stimulate debate, I don't think that theorising on possible methods to bypass security should be posted on a public forum.
AS hard as it may be for some of our godlike brethren
to be subjected to screening at entry to sterile areas, especially when it then lowers them to that of the common person (who all wish they were like you) it is there for yours and everyone else’s safety. Having everyone subjected to the same rules and processes not only reduces the risk of unwarranted persons/objects etc from getting onto your or my aircraft but acts as a deterrent for anyone looking for an easy chink in the armour as a way of bypassing the screening and getting something or someone you DON'T want on your aircraft.
Yes, like ANYTHING, there can be instances where you may think that the process has gone too far for whatever reason. At times like these, bite your tongue, banish those thoughts of greatness when mentally comparing yourself to the 'wannabe cop', smile, mention the poor cricket result and comply with what you are being asked. Hey, the security guard might even have a nice thought about you.
If this is too much for the ego to take, then write to the minister of transport and apply for a solid gold ASIC card to go with the solid gold ego.
Unbelievable.
And hows it hanging, as much as you may be attempting to contribute to and stimulate debate, I don't think that theorising on possible methods to bypass security should be posted on a public forum.
Growler,
As frightening a thought as it is we could walk onboard the aircraft buck naked and still destroy the aircraft.
The pilots don't need weapons, knives, chookpoo and diesel or any other kind of device to destroy an aeroplane, why most of our crew catering could be considered weapons of mass destruction!
I really can't see the point in screening tech crews, and as for making us pull our Jepps out so they can see down the spines - I mean really!
As frightening a thought as it is we could walk onboard the aircraft buck naked and still destroy the aircraft.
The pilots don't need weapons, knives, chookpoo and diesel or any other kind of device to destroy an aeroplane, why most of our crew catering could be considered weapons of mass destruction!
I really can't see the point in screening tech crews, and as for making us pull our Jepps out so they can see down the spines - I mean really!
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Increased security measures are here to stay whether we like it or not. This will only get tougher from March 10 next year when the new aviation security regime comes into effect. Set a good example by not whining at screening points about subjecting yourself and your baggage for screening - it's the law. If the "group 4 monkeys" (if I can borrow that term from whoever used it - it's quite fitting really) simply waived you though, they would be committing an offence for which they would be prosecuted, and loosing thier jobs would be the least of thier worries.
I agree that some airport security staff are a bit rough around the edges, perhaps they are on a power trip, especially when dealing with pilots.
It is bleedingly obvious that some of you are MS flight sim pilots, and your comments should really be kept to the MS chat rooms. As if any airline pilot, in this day and age, would:
Good one aerocom do you also wear 4 gold bars and those QF wings you bought on Ebay as you pilot your 777-300ER from your lounge room?
Secure flying to all.
I agree that some airport security staff are a bit rough around the edges, perhaps they are on a power trip, especially when dealing with pilots.
It is bleedingly obvious that some of you are MS flight sim pilots, and your comments should really be kept to the MS chat rooms. As if any airline pilot, in this day and age, would:
the chick was giving me a laugh as i said to the other crew now listen to one else has any knifes or handgradnades etc.
Secure flying to all.
Bottums Up
Ibex
Nothing egotistical or godlike about it. There is no requirement for Tech or Cabin crew to be security checked UNLESS they enter the secure area of the terminal. This crew can do for operational reasons without being screened. Sadly getting airside through the terminal doesn't seem to count as an operational reason.
At most of the ports I operate from, there is no need to do so, one quite lawfully walks through the rabbit warren like corridors and proceeds to the aircraft. Sadly, at the moment, some ports, like Alice, do not have this facility.
Having to damn near undress to pass through security screening just to make it appear that the authorities are on top if things is really frustrating.
Nothing egotistical or godlike about it. There is no requirement for Tech or Cabin crew to be security checked UNLESS they enter the secure area of the terminal. This crew can do for operational reasons without being screened. Sadly getting airside through the terminal doesn't seem to count as an operational reason.
At most of the ports I operate from, there is no need to do so, one quite lawfully walks through the rabbit warren like corridors and proceeds to the aircraft. Sadly, at the moment, some ports, like Alice, do not have this facility.
Having to damn near undress to pass through security screening just to make it appear that the authorities are on top if things is really frustrating.
What bothers me is the possibility of someone joing a flight at a regional non sterile airport and bypassing security at Melbourne or Sydney.
My other concern is the lax way aircrew appear to be treated by securtiy and immigration. I believe there may be a signifigant risk of impersonation. I don't think anyone could actually get on to an aircraft that way, but they could bring stuff into the sterile area and hand it to someone else.
My other concern is the lax way aircrew appear to be treated by securtiy and immigration. I believe there may be a signifigant risk of impersonation. I don't think anyone could actually get on to an aircraft that way, but they could bring stuff into the sterile area and hand it to someone else.
Sunfish
Regional passengers who have not been screened exit the terminal via a dedicated exit, and then re-enter to be screened before their next flight.
Aircrew generally come in for extra attention by security staff. It's called the 'tall poppy syndrome'. Nothing like a good dressing down in front of the passengers.
Have a look around next time you have nothing to do at the airport and see how many trades people there are wandering around. They are always building something. Do you think they go through security with all their tools?
Regional passengers who have not been screened exit the terminal via a dedicated exit, and then re-enter to be screened before their next flight.
Aircrew generally come in for extra attention by security staff. It's called the 'tall poppy syndrome'. Nothing like a good dressing down in front of the passengers.
Have a look around next time you have nothing to do at the airport and see how many trades people there are wandering around. They are always building something. Do you think they go through security with all their tools?
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Well said, Ibex.
A sterile area should be just that. Guaranteed sterile. Otherwise it's pretty much pointless.
Problem is at the moment, cost. The Nazis would love to expand their empire and screen everyone, but the cost to screen all staff, including maintenance, catering, porters, aircrew etc is prohibitive.
The major airlines are keeping their mouths closed, because the cost would naturally be apportioned to them. CASA are aware of the problem, as are the Government. But they are keeping quiet so as not to scare the average punter.
After all, if it gets out that Abdullah the caterer can board just about any aircraft anytime without being screened, well, just might just create mass hysteria.
OOOps! Have I just let the cat out of the bag?
FIX IT ANDERSON! NOW! BEFORE IT IS TOO DAMN LATE!
A sterile area should be just that. Guaranteed sterile. Otherwise it's pretty much pointless.
Problem is at the moment, cost. The Nazis would love to expand their empire and screen everyone, but the cost to screen all staff, including maintenance, catering, porters, aircrew etc is prohibitive.
The major airlines are keeping their mouths closed, because the cost would naturally be apportioned to them. CASA are aware of the problem, as are the Government. But they are keeping quiet so as not to scare the average punter.
After all, if it gets out that Abdullah the caterer can board just about any aircraft anytime without being screened, well, just might just create mass hysteria.
OOOps! Have I just let the cat out of the bag?
FIX IT ANDERSON! NOW! BEFORE IT IS TOO DAMN LATE!
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Capt Fathom
"Regional passengers who have not been screened exit the terminal via a dedicated exit, and then re-enter to be screened before their next flight."
Isn't that get screened after the flight so the vermin get a chance to harrass them
"Regional passengers who have not been screened exit the terminal via a dedicated exit, and then re-enter to be screened before their next flight."
Isn't that get screened after the flight so the vermin get a chance to harrass them
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A year or two ago, departing from JFK as a B747 operating crewmember, as I had many times before, I was chatting to another crewmember as I put my navbag and case on the x-ray input beltway, then casually, as you do, step through the 'magic doorway' to retrieve your bags, and move on.
Over the years, I had worked out what usually set off the buzzer, and trimmed down the metalic type things, and if the setting was about 'normal', I would get thru without any problem.
But this was new to me, the security guard stopped me as I exited the doorway, and told me to go around and go thru again.
As I hadn't set off the buzzer, I asked him why, so he said, get this, "You had your hands in your pockets" - no bull!
I was totally amazed, I tried some logic on him, you know, the obvious stuff, but that didn't work at all, I had to have my hands out of my pockets to get thru!!
That was the same day we had to shut down the airplane on the inactive runway, because they had misplaced our flight plan and would not allow us to proceed, although we had been given our clearance prior to pushback. We parked ourselves there for about 30 minutes until they got their act together, if we had kept the engines running we would have had to go back to the gate for more fuel, it was a long day!
A day I will remember for a long time!
Cheers
Over the years, I had worked out what usually set off the buzzer, and trimmed down the metalic type things, and if the setting was about 'normal', I would get thru without any problem.
But this was new to me, the security guard stopped me as I exited the doorway, and told me to go around and go thru again.
As I hadn't set off the buzzer, I asked him why, so he said, get this, "You had your hands in your pockets" - no bull!
I was totally amazed, I tried some logic on him, you know, the obvious stuff, but that didn't work at all, I had to have my hands out of my pockets to get thru!!
That was the same day we had to shut down the airplane on the inactive runway, because they had misplaced our flight plan and would not allow us to proceed, although we had been given our clearance prior to pushback. We parked ourselves there for about 30 minutes until they got their act together, if we had kept the engines running we would have had to go back to the gate for more fuel, it was a long day!
A day I will remember for a long time!
Cheers
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funny thing about the magic door, i have found that stepping over the hump in the floor, is less likely to set it off, even when wearing steel cap boots! i found stepping on the hump set it off every time, stepping over, about 50% of the time!