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i am late 20's! 4 of my close buddies are the same, we all have over 10 yrs experience in Aircraft maintainence, we have all been contacted by our former employer asking to come back to work for them, will any of us go back! Hell NO! quit my $70K job driving vans mon to fri to go back to a $40K job, on shift work, in lousy conditions (from which i hear have only gotten worse since our departure) just for the added benefit of staff travel!
Grandpa Aerotart
While building tradesmen are making $1000/ day in Sydney.
Mind you one of my cousins, in her late 20s, is making more than a QF Captain working for Macquarie Bank...her husband, a senior fund manager and early 30s is making $800k/annum.
Unfortunately many young people these days have a skewed version of the realities of life.
Programs like CSI Miami, ER, Ally Macbeal etc have all the kids wanting to be Doctors, Lawyers and Medical examiners....journalism too has, world wide, more people training to be journos
than currently employed as such.
Meanwhile plumbers, carpenters, car mechanics etc are demanding and recieving greater reward due to a general shortage of qualified people.
The govt, and parental, drive to keep children in school longer is causing a backlash...schools need to start educating kids to the realities and broadening their horizons.
I know with my teenage daughter, despite my best efforts to stress life's realities, seems to think that life will just run on in the same no effort way when she leaves school in a few years time.
Young adults not leaving home before their late 20s is becoming a social phenomenon that is impacting adversely on the parents ability to adequately fund retirements.
Kids these days need a reality check but the parents cannot compete with TV...which is percieved by kids as 'reality'....and when life fails to live up to that reality kids are getting depressed, hence the higher rates of youth suicide.
Mind you one of my cousins, in her late 20s, is making more than a QF Captain working for Macquarie Bank...her husband, a senior fund manager and early 30s is making $800k/annum.
Unfortunately many young people these days have a skewed version of the realities of life.
Programs like CSI Miami, ER, Ally Macbeal etc have all the kids wanting to be Doctors, Lawyers and Medical examiners....journalism too has, world wide, more people training to be journos
than currently employed as such.Meanwhile plumbers, carpenters, car mechanics etc are demanding and recieving greater reward due to a general shortage of qualified people.
The govt, and parental, drive to keep children in school longer is causing a backlash...schools need to start educating kids to the realities and broadening their horizons.
I know with my teenage daughter, despite my best efforts to stress life's realities, seems to think that life will just run on in the same no effort way when she leaves school in a few years time.
Young adults not leaving home before their late 20s is becoming a social phenomenon that is impacting adversely on the parents ability to adequately fund retirements.
Kids these days need a reality check but the parents cannot compete with TV...which is percieved by kids as 'reality'....and when life fails to live up to that reality kids are getting depressed, hence the higher rates of youth suicide.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 28th Nov 2004 at 05:00.
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I have just had a nice visit from my cuzzys boy who is doing a tour on a patrol boat here.
He did a trip to the Gulf last year and got a gong for it.
Absolutely loves the life, his job as well as other duties is to look after the guns on board and shoot the .50 cal regularly
He s 2 1/2 years into a 4 year hitch looks a million $ and says he is gonna sign up for another hitch.
He said he got absolute **** piled on him for 12 weeks in boot camp "just like in the movies Uncle", in fact of 125 went in only 70 came out.
Nothing like the lifetime of **** poured on some pilots.
More power to him he turns 21 in 2 weeks.
He did a trip to the Gulf last year and got a gong for it.
Absolutely loves the life, his job as well as other duties is to look after the guns on board and shoot the .50 cal regularly
He s 2 1/2 years into a 4 year hitch looks a million $ and says he is gonna sign up for another hitch.
He said he got absolute **** piled on him for 12 weeks in boot camp "just like in the movies Uncle", in fact of 125 went in only 70 came out.
Nothing like the lifetime of **** poured on some pilots.
More power to him he turns 21 in 2 weeks.
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Programs like CSI Miami, ER, Ally Macbeal etc have all the kids wanting to be Doctors, Lawyers and Medical examiners...
Meanwhile plumbers, carpenters, car mechanics etc are demanding and recieving greater reward due to a general shortage of qualified people.
It wont be too long before school age students deciding on a career will see that the money a plumber is earning after just 4 yrs training is a LOT more than your entry level lawer after 6 or more yrs training and cost of UNI!
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I'm a LAME who's just left the industry after 15 years of heavy and line work for a number of different airlines. I chose to leave the industry for a number of reasons, money wasn't one of them. In fact in leaving my last employer, I dropped around $50K a year to the jobs that I'm doing now. Why the big change? 11 years of shift work, companies that wanted to squeeze the last extra effort out of you, cut, cut, cut, something's gone wrong, who's the first person we can ream. Do the right thing, extract digit, hear nothing, get screwed at the next EBA or God forbid, Individual contract. Minimal line during the day, permanent night shift prospects for the long term future.
Sounds a bit like being a pilot, doesn't it?
"Oh but they pay well!!" I hear you say. Yes they do. But what price is happiness and health and sanity? I weighed it up and found that I didn't need to do it anymore. So I left. Best thing I've ever done.
Now for the big question, would I come back? Yes, I probably will, but only when I'm good and ready, into a job that I would enjoy, like any sane person. But for the moment, I'm happy working Monday to Friday, going to weekend BBQs, and watching my young family grow up without looking through cranky, depressed, sleep deprived eyes and counting the hours until I have to front up for my next shift.
Yes, LAME ages are getting older, and the current younger generation won't be sufficient, I don't believe, to cover the shortfall in ten years or so. A lot of young LAME's are leaving the industry disillusioned (sp?), and sad losses alot of them are too. If you want your children to REALLY make a killing, start getting them trained up now!
Everybody has a choice.
Sounds a bit like being a pilot, doesn't it?
"Oh but they pay well!!" I hear you say. Yes they do. But what price is happiness and health and sanity? I weighed it up and found that I didn't need to do it anymore. So I left. Best thing I've ever done.
Now for the big question, would I come back? Yes, I probably will, but only when I'm good and ready, into a job that I would enjoy, like any sane person. But for the moment, I'm happy working Monday to Friday, going to weekend BBQs, and watching my young family grow up without looking through cranky, depressed, sleep deprived eyes and counting the hours until I have to front up for my next shift.
Yes, LAME ages are getting older, and the current younger generation won't be sufficient, I don't believe, to cover the shortfall in ten years or so. A lot of young LAME's are leaving the industry disillusioned (sp?), and sad losses alot of them are too. If you want your children to REALLY make a killing, start getting them trained up now!
Everybody has a choice.
Last edited by NAMD; 28th Nov 2004 at 10:40.
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NAMD has sumarised it all rather well.
He has sumarised all of the things that make being a LAME these days suck.
I can also back the truth that the average age of LAME's is quite high - in my trade, and looking company wide I can see a large number of people who will be retiring within the next few years.
I am in my early thirties and I too have recently made the decision to leave the industry mostly due to the ever worstening conditions coupled with increasing responsibility/stress.
I am sick of being treated as a liability that is only a hinderance to operating a schedule for an employer who would subcontract my services to the lowest bidder if only they didn't require my kind to keep their precious AOC. I would love to tell these instant aviation experts that I didnt cause the breakdown and that my harts desire is to fix it as best and safely as I can.
All the powers that be are degrading engineering as a career and CASA stands at the head of the list as it's actions are driven by the airlines, and the outcome is reduced air safety.
Sure things are looking up as far as demand for LAME's goes, but the truth is that when demand is there the airlines just bring em in from other countries using the excuse that the Austalian licensing system for LAME's is too complex therefore we should make it easier so that a broader range of ppl can get in, thus reducing demand, wages and safety having once again lowered the bar.
Make the jobs worth having and the people who are up to the jobs will come.
I will regret leaving aeroplanes as I like em, but for the first time in a long time I know I have made a good decision and a step in the right direction by leaving them behind.
He has sumarised all of the things that make being a LAME these days suck.
I can also back the truth that the average age of LAME's is quite high - in my trade, and looking company wide I can see a large number of people who will be retiring within the next few years.
I am in my early thirties and I too have recently made the decision to leave the industry mostly due to the ever worstening conditions coupled with increasing responsibility/stress.
I am sick of being treated as a liability that is only a hinderance to operating a schedule for an employer who would subcontract my services to the lowest bidder if only they didn't require my kind to keep their precious AOC. I would love to tell these instant aviation experts that I didnt cause the breakdown and that my harts desire is to fix it as best and safely as I can.
All the powers that be are degrading engineering as a career and CASA stands at the head of the list as it's actions are driven by the airlines, and the outcome is reduced air safety.
Sure things are looking up as far as demand for LAME's goes, but the truth is that when demand is there the airlines just bring em in from other countries using the excuse that the Austalian licensing system for LAME's is too complex therefore we should make it easier so that a broader range of ppl can get in, thus reducing demand, wages and safety having once again lowered the bar.
Make the jobs worth having and the people who are up to the jobs will come.
I will regret leaving aeroplanes as I like em, but for the first time in a long time I know I have made a good decision and a step in the right direction by leaving them behind.
Back in the 70's Ansett used to get 2000 applicants for LAME apprenticeships each year and we didn't even advertise!! We just left the blank application forms at the guard house at the maintenance base.
One idea the LAMEs came up with themselves was to do away with the sacred eight hour day and go from a three shift to something like a two shift operation. This would have reduced the overtime level and resulted in a slight reduction in take home pay, but it would have given them all a three day weekend and produced a slight cost reduction for the company.
Abeles squashed the idea dead flat instantly.
One idea the LAMEs came up with themselves was to do away with the sacred eight hour day and go from a three shift to something like a two shift operation. This would have reduced the overtime level and resulted in a slight reduction in take home pay, but it would have given them all a three day weekend and produced a slight cost reduction for the company.
Abeles squashed the idea dead flat instantly.
Don't want to upset Big W by advertising, but ..... I currently have ninety vacancies for trainees and apprentices in Regional and Rural Queensland, which I will never be able to fill. Apprenticeships include carpenters, mechanics, electricians and plumbers - all Award paid employment, free college training. Recently, I have been signing up disolusioned University graduates as trade apprentices.
Six or seven years ago someone in CASA calculated the number of LAME in Australia was insufficient to perform the maintenance task required by the current number of hours flown in Australia each year. And the situation has deteriorated since then!
Australia's skilled trade shortage is at crisis level. Sadly, Canberra don't seem to be listening!
Six or seven years ago someone in CASA calculated the number of LAME in Australia was insufficient to perform the maintenance task required by the current number of hours flown in Australia each year. And the situation has deteriorated since then!
Australia's skilled trade shortage is at crisis level. Sadly, Canberra don't seem to be listening!
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The current lack of skilled technical and trades people largely results from two points of pressure:
1. During the late 70's and early to mid 80's the employers were facing a poor economy and had to cut costs. One of the easiest ways of doing that was to stop hiring apprentices and trainees. That way every dollar spent brought in revenue. Traning people just costs money (a shortsighted view but business is like that).
2. The Federal and State governments all decided that we had to become a "smart" country and send every high school kid straight to university. Subsidies for apprentices were slashed and no other assistance was given in any way to employers who wanted to hire apprentices and trainees. Remember, the Tech bubble was growing rapidly at this time and all of our kids wanted to be computer nerds and get rich like Bill Gates.
The end result of this shortsighted policy was that we now have a heap of computer programmers, business analysts, journalists, teachers, lawyers and Arts graduates (not sure what they do) but no trades people. The Keating Government did try to introduce a training levy to minimise the damage but the business community argued in the High Court that such a levy was unconstitutional and it was subsequently struck out.
Now comes the really interesting part. You would have thought that with all of the vacancies for skilled trades people (like LAMEs) they would be enjoying the best working conditions in the world. But the problem is that at the very same time as everything else was happening there was also a corresponding drop in union membersip and participation in industrial activities. Without the collective strength to resist work intensification and increased workplace pressure, individual employees were powerless to resist management when they wanted change.
Although the current shortage of staff means that employers will have to pay more dollars per year to get anyone, as has already been pointed out in this thread, there is far more to working than just dollars and cents. I honestly believe that the only hope for a better working future rests with the individuals willingness to join an industrial organisation (Union) and work with their colleagues for a better future. I know that unions have let people down in the past but they are only as good as the membership lets them be. Also in the past the focus has been on dollar increases in wages at times when the employer had a thousand applicants for every job. Those days are gone now and its not too late to win a better working life not just for ourselves but for the future too.
The above probably sounds a bit corny but I really believe it and see the results for myself every day (when I have to defend an employer).
1. During the late 70's and early to mid 80's the employers were facing a poor economy and had to cut costs. One of the easiest ways of doing that was to stop hiring apprentices and trainees. That way every dollar spent brought in revenue. Traning people just costs money (a shortsighted view but business is like that).
2. The Federal and State governments all decided that we had to become a "smart" country and send every high school kid straight to university. Subsidies for apprentices were slashed and no other assistance was given in any way to employers who wanted to hire apprentices and trainees. Remember, the Tech bubble was growing rapidly at this time and all of our kids wanted to be computer nerds and get rich like Bill Gates.
The end result of this shortsighted policy was that we now have a heap of computer programmers, business analysts, journalists, teachers, lawyers and Arts graduates (not sure what they do) but no trades people. The Keating Government did try to introduce a training levy to minimise the damage but the business community argued in the High Court that such a levy was unconstitutional and it was subsequently struck out.
Now comes the really interesting part. You would have thought that with all of the vacancies for skilled trades people (like LAMEs) they would be enjoying the best working conditions in the world. But the problem is that at the very same time as everything else was happening there was also a corresponding drop in union membersip and participation in industrial activities. Without the collective strength to resist work intensification and increased workplace pressure, individual employees were powerless to resist management when they wanted change.
Although the current shortage of staff means that employers will have to pay more dollars per year to get anyone, as has already been pointed out in this thread, there is far more to working than just dollars and cents. I honestly believe that the only hope for a better working future rests with the individuals willingness to join an industrial organisation (Union) and work with their colleagues for a better future. I know that unions have let people down in the past but they are only as good as the membership lets them be. Also in the past the focus has been on dollar increases in wages at times when the employer had a thousand applicants for every job. Those days are gone now and its not too late to win a better working life not just for ourselves but for the future too.
The above probably sounds a bit corny but I really believe it and see the results for myself every day (when I have to defend an employer).
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Does this allow companies to legitimise taking their engineering business offshore - in the PR sense at least?
"Ah yes, we are all for keeping LAME / Pilot / FA / [add here] jobs at home, but we have a skills shortage and can't fill these jobs here (for the miserable pay we are offering)"
I don't mean to trivialise the real problem, but I know how some of these performace execs will spin it.
Whilst we are at it what is the average age of Air Traffic Controllers, remembering they can retire at 50?
Well, it is definitely in the mid 40's.
"Ah yes, we are all for keeping LAME / Pilot / FA / [add here] jobs at home, but we have a skills shortage and can't fill these jobs here (for the miserable pay we are offering)"
I don't mean to trivialise the real problem, but I know how some of these performace execs will spin it.
Whilst we are at it what is the average age of Air Traffic Controllers, remembering they can retire at 50?
Well, it is definitely in the mid 40's.
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Torres
Canberra are listening. You only have to read the NPRM on CASR 66, 145 etc to see that they are planning to mitigate the looming skills crisis by lowering the required experience levels for LAME certification (much the same way that the UKCAA and NZCAA have). PCT training will inevitably replace the SOE which will mean for a Group 20 aircraft - 5 weeks classroom plus 3 or so weeks hands on to get a rating. Then there is the company authorisation. While this has been a way of life for the large airlines, it will become normality for any Car145 organisation. When you are short of certification just haul in an allied tradesman (if you can afford one) and authorise him or her to certify. The biggest muddle out of the CASR 66 rewrite must be the "inherent cause" replacement for CAO 100.90. If you thought demarkation was confused before, you ain't seen nothing yet. You will need to determine the inherent cause of a defect to decide which trade group is permitted to rectify e.g. starter-generator won't come online so you send an electrical LAME to rectify, but low and behold the drive shaft has sheared, so cause is now mechanical failure!!! What happened to the KISS principle.
Canberra are listening. You only have to read the NPRM on CASR 66, 145 etc to see that they are planning to mitigate the looming skills crisis by lowering the required experience levels for LAME certification (much the same way that the UKCAA and NZCAA have). PCT training will inevitably replace the SOE which will mean for a Group 20 aircraft - 5 weeks classroom plus 3 or so weeks hands on to get a rating. Then there is the company authorisation. While this has been a way of life for the large airlines, it will become normality for any Car145 organisation. When you are short of certification just haul in an allied tradesman (if you can afford one) and authorise him or her to certify. The biggest muddle out of the CASR 66 rewrite must be the "inherent cause" replacement for CAO 100.90. If you thought demarkation was confused before, you ain't seen nothing yet. You will need to determine the inherent cause of a defect to decide which trade group is permitted to rectify e.g. starter-generator won't come online so you send an electrical LAME to rectify, but low and behold the drive shaft has sheared, so cause is now mechanical failure!!! What happened to the KISS principle.
notmyC150v2. Only partly correct. The falacy of unionism has always been that it purportedly improves worker income and working conditions. That may have been the case during the industrial revolution, but the laws of supply and demand have prevailed in Australian wages and conditions for decades.
Now the wheel has turned. Australia is critically short of skilled, qualified and experienced LAMEs, diesel fitters, auto mechanics, builders, carpenters, chefs etc. Quality tradesmen are able to ask their own price. The Awards have become a farce - excessively complex and no qualified and experienced tradesman is interested in "Award rate of pay".
The university education mind set is changing. It was driven by parent and school pressure - which resulted in a plethora of university graduates, unemployed, with a HECS debt waiting to bite them when they were eventually able to gain employment.
The time has never been better for young Australians to seek an apprenticeship. Conditions are excellent, wages reasonable, competancy based training, free block course tuition, living away from home allowances, significant employer subsidies and a guarantee of immediate high paid work on completion of the qualification. And now Australia has moved into School based traineeships and apprenticeships and shortly, into mature aged accelerated apprenticeships.
How do I know? Because I employ 480 apprentices and trainees.
FNQTech. Yes....... Interesting. There always was the question of who should legally change and re connect a PT6 starter generator.
The problem is not with the self regulating airlines, but how to ensure a competent GA LAME could legally perform a wide variety of categories of aircraft maintenance - a attempt to legalise what many very competent LAME's have been doing for many years.
Now the wheel has turned. Australia is critically short of skilled, qualified and experienced LAMEs, diesel fitters, auto mechanics, builders, carpenters, chefs etc. Quality tradesmen are able to ask their own price. The Awards have become a farce - excessively complex and no qualified and experienced tradesman is interested in "Award rate of pay".
The university education mind set is changing. It was driven by parent and school pressure - which resulted in a plethora of university graduates, unemployed, with a HECS debt waiting to bite them when they were eventually able to gain employment.
The time has never been better for young Australians to seek an apprenticeship. Conditions are excellent, wages reasonable, competancy based training, free block course tuition, living away from home allowances, significant employer subsidies and a guarantee of immediate high paid work on completion of the qualification. And now Australia has moved into School based traineeships and apprenticeships and shortly, into mature aged accelerated apprenticeships.
How do I know? Because I employ 480 apprentices and trainees.
FNQTech. Yes....... Interesting. There always was the question of who should legally change and re connect a PT6 starter generator.
The problem is not with the self regulating airlines, but how to ensure a competent GA LAME could legally perform a wide variety of categories of aircraft maintenance - a attempt to legalise what many very competent LAME's have been doing for many years.
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Torres,
I have to disagree with you on the role of unions. Whilst they are mostly known for pushing for higher wages for their members they were also behind the push for non wage improvements to working conditions. A lot of these proposed improvements would not cost the employer a lot of money (if any) but were opposed nonetheless. The fact that qualified tradespeople are now hard to get does not mean that unions are no longer relevant, its just that they need to refine their services and what they seek for their members from employers and government. For example they should be seeking to take the lead on the deskilling debate and opposing the trend to importing less qualified labour from overseas.
Congratulations for employing so many trainees and Apprentices and I hope that other employers will follow your lead. Unfortunately what employers have to blame themselves for is a shortsighted failure to train 10 - 20 years ago which we are paying for now (yourself excluded).
Another problem faced by employers which we have both touched on is the push from schools, government and parents for our kids to go to university and not complete an apprenticeship.
As for your comments about the Award system, remember that the Award is there to protect the weakest. It is a mimimum set of conditions. Therefore it will have virtually no relevance to tradespeople in any industry (except hospitality, baking etc) because they are being paid far in excess of the Award rate due to the lack of available tradespeople. But the lowest classification, I can almost promise you, gets paid no more than the rate specified in the Award.
I have to disagree with you on the role of unions. Whilst they are mostly known for pushing for higher wages for their members they were also behind the push for non wage improvements to working conditions. A lot of these proposed improvements would not cost the employer a lot of money (if any) but were opposed nonetheless. The fact that qualified tradespeople are now hard to get does not mean that unions are no longer relevant, its just that they need to refine their services and what they seek for their members from employers and government. For example they should be seeking to take the lead on the deskilling debate and opposing the trend to importing less qualified labour from overseas.
Congratulations for employing so many trainees and Apprentices and I hope that other employers will follow your lead. Unfortunately what employers have to blame themselves for is a shortsighted failure to train 10 - 20 years ago which we are paying for now (yourself excluded).
Another problem faced by employers which we have both touched on is the push from schools, government and parents for our kids to go to university and not complete an apprenticeship.
As for your comments about the Award system, remember that the Award is there to protect the weakest. It is a mimimum set of conditions. Therefore it will have virtually no relevance to tradespeople in any industry (except hospitality, baking etc) because they are being paid far in excess of the Award rate due to the lack of available tradespeople. But the lowest classification, I can almost promise you, gets paid no more than the rate specified in the Award.
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I feel that employee unionism has failed in the aircraft game simply because there are so many different unions covering the different trades withing the industry. During my time at Qf i was a union delegate, and 1 unions negotiations on certain points were constantly undermined by another unions agreement on a similar point, which then gave the company a lower benchmark with which to aim for.
What is Needed is an AVIATION Indusrty union. Pilots, cabin crew have their own unions, but everything else was covered by the AWU, AMWU CFMEU, LHMU TWU and others all wanting different things for their members. hence their failure to present a united front with which to defend conditions.
What is Needed is an AVIATION Indusrty union. Pilots, cabin crew have their own unions, but everything else was covered by the AWU, AMWU CFMEU, LHMU TWU and others all wanting different things for their members. hence their failure to present a united front with which to defend conditions.