Australia to buy long-range missiles
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will this do??
The Royal Australian Navy helicopter-carrying "amphibious assault ship."
OZBUS is that what you had in mind? Nah.. how about something with hovercraft and MH-53s...
OZBUS is that what you had in mind? Nah.. how about something with hovercraft and MH-53s...
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Gnadenburg,
It would appear that you would agree with the French policy of appeasement to the muslim fanatics.
That has not been of much help to their news reporters who are under the threat of execution.
You would also appear to be capable of throwing racist statements into the forum with very little encouragement. To call Obiwan a redneck is most insulting, and is racist.
For your edification the dictionary meaning of the word redneck
'noun' US derogatory, in the South Western States a poor white farm worker. adj.ignorant, intolerant, narrow minded and bigoted.
With that definition I would look closer to home to lable anyone as such.
Prospector
It would appear that you would agree with the French policy of appeasement to the muslim fanatics.
That has not been of much help to their news reporters who are under the threat of execution.
You would also appear to be capable of throwing racist statements into the forum with very little encouragement. To call Obiwan a redneck is most insulting, and is racist.
For your edification the dictionary meaning of the word redneck
'noun' US derogatory, in the South Western States a poor white farm worker. adj.ignorant, intolerant, narrow minded and bigoted.
With that definition I would look closer to home to lable anyone as such.
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Hey I looked up "redneck" in the dictionary, too. They had a picture of me...
Also, the words
were in brackets. As I would wager Gnadenburglar is NOT in the SW US, I feel he is free to use the term redneck without anyone accusing him of being racist. I WOULD, however, happily accuse Gnadenburger of being colourist, a particularly nasty form of discrimination wouldn't you agree Puspector?
While in that section of the dictionary, I happened across the word "retard". Surprisingly, they do not have a definition referring to stupid people.
I wouldn't call banning headscarves and similar items "appeasement". Bit of a stretch there, Pus.
I just re-read and saw you're from Hobbiton. Now it all makes sense. If you see Helen, say "Hi" to him for me.
Also, the words
in the South Western States
While in that section of the dictionary, I happened across the word "retard". Surprisingly, they do not have a definition referring to stupid people.
I wouldn't call banning headscarves and similar items "appeasement". Bit of a stretch there, Pus.
I just re-read and saw you're from Hobbiton. Now it all makes sense. If you see Helen, say "Hi" to him for me.
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Air-Shag,
The appeasement actions were commenced long before the scarves were an item, perhaps if you could advise what the other similar items are??
I am glad that you feel that to use the term redneck has no connotation other than in the South Western States of the US. I am sure that would explain why it was used in the way it was, but why would Gnadenburg be concerned about the sunburn on Obiwans neck??
Prospector
The appeasement actions were commenced long before the scarves were an item, perhaps if you could advise what the other similar items are??
I am glad that you feel that to use the term redneck has no connotation other than in the South Western States of the US. I am sure that would explain why it was used in the way it was, but why would Gnadenburg be concerned about the sunburn on Obiwans neck??
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What appeasement? What are you talking about? I know the frogs like to sell guns and things to anyone with cash, is that what you mean??
Are you thinking of the appeasement of Hitler in the '30s? How long does it take news to filter down through the earth into your burrow?
Is it racist of me to refer to the hobbits in derogatory HAIRY-FOOTED terms? Does the hobbit race even exist?
All Gnardenburglar said was Obiwan sounds like a redneck.
By the way, Pusspector, deliberately mis-spelling my name is "insulting,"
as you put it and hurtful . 
I think you're sorely jealous because Helen the White Orc threw away your air force. Did she enjoy her ride back to NZ after the famous Ansett-Tug-and-Loader blockade in the CT-4 the RNZ Air Corp sent to collect her??
You wish you had missiles too.....
Are you thinking of the appeasement of Hitler in the '30s? How long does it take news to filter down through the earth into your burrow?
Is it racist of me to refer to the hobbits in derogatory HAIRY-FOOTED terms? Does the hobbit race even exist?
All Gnardenburglar said was Obiwan sounds like a redneck.
By the way, Pusspector, deliberately mis-spelling my name is "insulting,"
as you put it and hurtful . I think you're sorely jealous because Helen the White Orc threw away your air force. Did she enjoy her ride back to NZ after the famous Ansett-Tug-and-Loader blockade in the CT-4 the RNZ Air Corp sent to collect her??
You wish you had missiles too.....
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Air-Shag,
Yes, I am sorely jealous, the only missiles we have are barbed words and sharp sticks.
No, I dont believe she enjoyed her ride, that is why we bought two nearly new jets for her, the fact that they are the only jets in our whole airforce is why the words have to be so effective.
The appeasement is because the rest of the gang did not support GW when he was just waving the big stick. Perhaps if they had all got in behind and all waved big sticks there would have been no need to send troops in and disrupt so many lives, on both sides. Perhaps it would not have shaken the resolve of the terrorist organisations but surely it would have been worth a try.
Oops, Ive managed an extra S again, must be finger trouble, perhaps if u managed your u's better????
Prospector
Yes, I am sorely jealous, the only missiles we have are barbed words and sharp sticks.
No, I dont believe she enjoyed her ride, that is why we bought two nearly new jets for her, the fact that they are the only jets in our whole airforce is why the words have to be so effective.
The appeasement is because the rest of the gang did not support GW when he was just waving the big stick. Perhaps if they had all got in behind and all waved big sticks there would have been no need to send troops in and disrupt so many lives, on both sides. Perhaps it would not have shaken the resolve of the terrorist organisations but surely it would have been worth a try.
Oops, Ive managed an extra S again, must be finger trouble, perhaps if u managed your u's better????
Prospector
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Well anyway I think a double-whammy is in order. Buy the missiles and then keep the F-111s!! Put the missiles on the pigs for a real @r$e-kicking capability. The hornets already got a new toy... (ASRAAM)
And for cruise missile warheads......??
... well if the Iranians can have one why shouldn't we???
And hold a caption competition for the punters to think up the most hilarious comments to chalk onto the noses of the things. That lets the mums and dads feel a part of it all, especially as they had to give up another public hospital or two to pay for it all!
Money well spent...
And for cruise missile warheads......??
... well if the Iranians can have one why shouldn't we???And hold a caption competition for the punters to think up the most hilarious comments to chalk onto the noses of the things. That lets the mums and dads feel a part of it all, especially as they had to give up another public hospital or two to pay for it all!
Money well spent...
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Right On Air Hag
What a potent air force we could continue to have allowing those of us with children to rest assured that the kids will have reasonable security whilst those to our north continue to beef up their capabilities.
The continued potency of our F111s is of too high a value to be foolishly pushed aside.
What a potent air force we could continue to have allowing those of us with children to rest assured that the kids will have reasonable security whilst those to our north continue to beef up their capabilities.
The continued potency of our F111s is of too high a value to be foolishly pushed aside.
1- Australia needs a long range deterrent capability.
2- Stealth cruise missiles replace obsolete F111's.
To avoid regional paranoia and similar upgrades by regional forces, we use diplomacy to allay fears. This diplomacy, or explaination to our regional "allies", is a soft kill for Australia if we are the ONLY force in the region with cruise missiles.
If, as suggested by previous posts, we give the thumb to these countries and they see an immediate need for similar capabilities, we have missed an opportunity.
Australia can not defend itself against such capabilities. Whether at home ( unlikely ) or in regional operations without the Americans.
In having new generation cruise missiles EXCLUSIVELY, we effectively have our F111 1970's and 1980's advantage again.
To quote former US Secretary of State McNamara, the F111 was an all weather and first pass bomber. This capability made regional day fighters, early generation SAM's, anti-aircraft guns and ground based radar ineffective.
When regional air forces deployed next generation fighters and SAM's, the F111 was more vulnerable and lost it's previous advantage.
A stealth cruise missile swings the pendulum back in our favour. Especially with JSF and the flexibility of extremely long range Orions.
How we went down the track of appeasing muslims etc?
Ozbiggles
That's another absurd scenario. Sept 11 or the tragedy in Moscow this morning shows that despite the rocket forces of the Americans and Russians, you can not hit back rationally against small terrorist organisations.
Appeasing Muslim terrorists another pipped in. They want you to hit back , hard and without mercy. This creates a groundswell of fundamentalism amongst the uneducated impoverished masses ( West Bank etc ) and an unwinnable situation develops.
Don't pretend to have the answers for terrorism-as confused as the CIA, Mossad and the KGB!
2- Stealth cruise missiles replace obsolete F111's.
To avoid regional paranoia and similar upgrades by regional forces, we use diplomacy to allay fears. This diplomacy, or explaination to our regional "allies", is a soft kill for Australia if we are the ONLY force in the region with cruise missiles.
If, as suggested by previous posts, we give the thumb to these countries and they see an immediate need for similar capabilities, we have missed an opportunity.
Australia can not defend itself against such capabilities. Whether at home ( unlikely ) or in regional operations without the Americans.
In having new generation cruise missiles EXCLUSIVELY, we effectively have our F111 1970's and 1980's advantage again.
To quote former US Secretary of State McNamara, the F111 was an all weather and first pass bomber. This capability made regional day fighters, early generation SAM's, anti-aircraft guns and ground based radar ineffective.
When regional air forces deployed next generation fighters and SAM's, the F111 was more vulnerable and lost it's previous advantage.
A stealth cruise missile swings the pendulum back in our favour. Especially with JSF and the flexibility of extremely long range Orions.
How we went down the track of appeasing muslims etc?
Ozbiggles
That's another absurd scenario. Sept 11 or the tragedy in Moscow this morning shows that despite the rocket forces of the Americans and Russians, you can not hit back rationally against small terrorist organisations.
Appeasing Muslim terrorists another pipped in. They want you to hit back , hard and without mercy. This creates a groundswell of fundamentalism amongst the uneducated impoverished masses ( West Bank etc ) and an unwinnable situation develops.
Don't pretend to have the answers for terrorism-as confused as the CIA, Mossad and the KGB!
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Unfortunately this thread (and the debate more broadly) is replete with generalisations and misrepresentations. A couple of facts might help clarify some of the issues:
The cruise missile purchase is known as Project Air 5418. The project's year of decision, budget, and an explanation of the capabilities sought are outlined in the Defence Capability Plan 2004-14. This 10 year plan provides a level of transparency in Defence procurement not found anywhere else in the region. Our regional neighbours were briefed on the plan by our respective embassies (including the Jakarta post) at the time of its public release. There can be no suggestion that the purchase was sprung on our neighbours - they have a 10 year blueprint for every major piece of Defence equipment that we intend to acquire.
In any case, all that was announced was that a tender process would be conducted, during which the capabilities of the respective missiles would be evaluated. There is no decision yet on type (and therefore range / payload capabilities.)
Obviously the missiles can be used defensively or offensively - the same can be said of just about any piece of military equipment.
When commenting on the reaction by Indonesia, one should not lose sight of the domestic politics involved. Foreign Affairs spokesman Marty Natalagawa criticised the purchase - this plays to his particular core constituency where anti-Australianism is popular. The head of the TNI, General Sutarto, was much more measured - saying that Indonesia was comfortable with the purchase and that it was Australia's right to choose whatever weapons it liked. Long story short - just like here, politicians in Indonesia will choose their message to appeal to their audience!
In short, this is a normal step on the road to acquiring a capability that has been publicly foreshadowed for some time. It isn't about appeasement or anything of the sort. Our defence force is prudently acquiring new capabilities to replace those that are ageing or becoming obsolete- just like every other country with a modern defence force does.
It's that simple........
SW
The cruise missile purchase is known as Project Air 5418. The project's year of decision, budget, and an explanation of the capabilities sought are outlined in the Defence Capability Plan 2004-14. This 10 year plan provides a level of transparency in Defence procurement not found anywhere else in the region. Our regional neighbours were briefed on the plan by our respective embassies (including the Jakarta post) at the time of its public release. There can be no suggestion that the purchase was sprung on our neighbours - they have a 10 year blueprint for every major piece of Defence equipment that we intend to acquire.
In any case, all that was announced was that a tender process would be conducted, during which the capabilities of the respective missiles would be evaluated. There is no decision yet on type (and therefore range / payload capabilities.)
Obviously the missiles can be used defensively or offensively - the same can be said of just about any piece of military equipment.
When commenting on the reaction by Indonesia, one should not lose sight of the domestic politics involved. Foreign Affairs spokesman Marty Natalagawa criticised the purchase - this plays to his particular core constituency where anti-Australianism is popular. The head of the TNI, General Sutarto, was much more measured - saying that Indonesia was comfortable with the purchase and that it was Australia's right to choose whatever weapons it liked. Long story short - just like here, politicians in Indonesia will choose their message to appeal to their audience!
In short, this is a normal step on the road to acquiring a capability that has been publicly foreshadowed for some time. It isn't about appeasement or anything of the sort. Our defence force is prudently acquiring new capabilities to replace those that are ageing or becoming obsolete- just like every other country with a modern defence force does.
It's that simple........
SW
itchybum Yep thinking more about the yank amphib assault ships with ACVs and Jolly Greens. They would have been a god-send for cyclone relief over the years. Like all tools ,you can use them for good or hostile purposes.
As for immeadiate or even long term threats. If you are a novelist.. India Realisticly there is no threat.
As for immeadiate or even long term threats. If you are a novelist.. India
Realisticly there is no threat.
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I read the novel about India. I think it was called "An Act of War" ? Is that the one?
Why would anyone invade Australia? I don't think they would but I don't have trouble imagining a few people eyeing off the oil and gas resources lying underneath the Timor Sea, which Australia has claimed despite E. Timor's own claims of ownership. There are some big guns, greedy unprincipled people and stinging feelings of national pride in the area.
I read the RAN is getting 2 proper helicopter carriers but can't find anything about it through searches. Anybody got any info on that?
Gnadenburg, where've you been???
Why would anyone invade Australia? I don't think they would but I don't have trouble imagining a few people eyeing off the oil and gas resources lying underneath the Timor Sea, which Australia has claimed despite E. Timor's own claims of ownership. There are some big guns, greedy unprincipled people and stinging feelings of national pride in the area.
I read the RAN is getting 2 proper helicopter carriers but can't find anything about it through searches. Anybody got any info on that?
Gnadenburg, where've you been???
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Swingwing, Swingwing, Swingwing...
why must you persist with logical, coherent discussion in this forum? Take your well-informed rhetoric and nick off to leave the armchair experts to duke it out...!
(aka grey haired dude working in your office)
why must you persist with logical, coherent discussion in this forum? Take your well-informed rhetoric and nick off to leave the armchair experts to duke it out...!
(aka grey haired dude working in your office)
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Armchair experts we may be but at least we're not living in the past, Messers "Macchi" and "Swingwing"... 
Yeah ok I'm just jealous that I never flew them, you're right.
Anyway no one wants to hear common sense, we just like to throw BS around the place and slag each other for off.
Yeah ok I'm just jealous that I never flew them, you're right.
Anyway no one wants to hear common sense, we just like to throw BS around the place and slag each other for off.
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In order to supplement the new cruise missile (which, by the way has been planned for bloody years, even the Collllins subs will get them eventually) I would like to see Australia develop our own Ballistic Missile. It doesn't have to be an ICBM, we don't need THAT MUCH range.
That will teach a few people to shut their word-holes around this area.
You wouldn't hear runty little noodles calling us racists anymore in case they got a MIRV from over the horizon.
Those rocket-scientists down Woomera-way should be employed to design it. There is a lot of talent and scientific know-how in the rocket field in Aust.
Keeee-rist even the pakis have got one...
Although theirs do tend to blow up their own technicians on the launch pad now and then......
That will teach a few people to shut their word-holes around this area.
You wouldn't hear runty little noodles calling us racists anymore in case they got a MIRV from over the horizon.
Those rocket-scientists down Woomera-way should be employed to design it. There is a lot of talent and scientific know-how in the rocket field in Aust.
Keeee-rist even the pakis have got one...
Although theirs do tend to blow up their own technicians on the launch pad now and then......
Evertonian
Thread Starter
Now, this may be a dumb question,(you can blame it on my youthfull, athletic appearance!)
but I'll ask it anyway.
How far off from being a Cruise Missile was the Jindivik? Granted it probably needed more range, a warhead and a better guidance system, but would continued research have yielded our very own cruise missile?
but I'll ask it anyway.How far off from being a Cruise Missile was the Jindivik? Granted it probably needed more range, a warhead and a better guidance system, but would continued research have yielded our very own cruise missile?
Zapa, G-b
You are right. There is no scenario where Australia needs a credible defence force. I agree we should go back to those wonderful years of the 30s and let diplomacy keep us safe. A lot more money for the welfare state would then be available.
As for rockets and bombs being no good to deal with the bad guys, G-b you are right there too. We should just give them what they want (through diplomacy) and then they will go away and never ever want anything else (said in a Homer Simpson type voice).
You are right. There is no scenario where Australia needs a credible defence force. I agree we should go back to those wonderful years of the 30s and let diplomacy keep us safe. A lot more money for the welfare state would then be available.
As for rockets and bombs being no good to deal with the bad guys, G-b you are right there too. We should just give them what they want (through diplomacy) and then they will go away and never ever want anything else (said in a Homer Simpson type voice).
Last edited by ozbiggles; 3rd Sep 2004 at 00:41.
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Ozbiggles, thanks for the smart arse yet totally pointless answer. I am still keen to know. Who are you afraid of and why.
My concern is that the weapons to be purchased by Australia are of an offensive nature and will be used when we are strong armed into attacking Iran, Syria, North Korea or whatever country next threatens the economic hemegony of uncle sam.
Like our efforts in Iraq, this will only increase our chances of being the target of violence.
I am worried that our purchase of offensive weapons will become a self fullfilling prophecy.
My concern is that the weapons to be purchased by Australia are of an offensive nature and will be used when we are strong armed into attacking Iran, Syria, North Korea or whatever country next threatens the economic hemegony of uncle sam.
Like our efforts in Iraq, this will only increase our chances of being the target of violence.
I am worried that our purchase of offensive weapons will become a self fullfilling prophecy.