Song and dance over 'ageist' Virgin
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Employ a cross section of ages?? Where do you draw the line? An equal number of 18 year olds as there are 50 year olds? How do you work out the proportions of the demographic without being disciminatory to any one group?
You can't!
There will ALWAYS be discrimination in every part of our society... whether it is legal or not depends on what the status quo is. It seems that this case is attepting to create positive discrimination rather than reverse negative discrimination.
As for remembering prep drill, evac, and 5 aircraft... it's not the rocket science so many make it out to be.
You can't!
There will ALWAYS be discrimination in every part of our society... whether it is legal or not depends on what the status quo is. It seems that this case is attepting to create positive discrimination rather than reverse negative discrimination.
As for remembering prep drill, evac, and 5 aircraft... it's not the rocket science so many make it out to be.
irrationale
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Let's be real for just a moment gentlemen.
Virgin Blue's advertising, marketing and employment tactics are so very obviously geared towards the young 20ish attractive female with great hair and a nice smile. Just take one look at the Virgin Blue billboards around Sydney domestic airport and you will see not one person over 30 smiling back at you.
This is not to say that they don't hire anyone over 30, but I sure as hell haven't seen one!
I wish the ex-Ansett crew the best of luck - maybe this will be just the kick in the bum DJ needs to start recognising the skills and abilities of those who don't fit into the stereotypical DJ image.
SG
PS. For the record, I don't understand a word of German.
Virgin Blue's advertising, marketing and employment tactics are so very obviously geared towards the young 20ish attractive female with great hair and a nice smile. Just take one look at the Virgin Blue billboards around Sydney domestic airport and you will see not one person over 30 smiling back at you.
This is not to say that they don't hire anyone over 30, but I sure as hell haven't seen one!
I wish the ex-Ansett crew the best of luck - maybe this will be just the kick in the bum DJ needs to start recognising the skills and abilities of those who don't fit into the stereotypical DJ image.
SG
PS. For the record, I don't understand a word of German.
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S'roit Sydgirl, that is why I do it - to offend less people who read.
If DJ wants THAT image, then it is their perrogative.
If airlines didn't have a certain criteria, I am sure we would see 4ft FA's, 120 KG FA's, Dyslexic FA's, and cross-dressing FA's.
Where do you want to draw the discrimination line guys?
If DJ wants THAT image, then it is their perrogative.
If airlines didn't have a certain criteria, I am sure we would see 4ft FA's, 120 KG FA's, Dyslexic FA's, and cross-dressing FA's.
Where do you want to draw the discrimination line guys?
Guest
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RTA, adoptation of a certain image may be a perogative, however compliance with the law is a responsibility.
EEO laws are designed to protect the public from practices that are percieved to be unethical. These laws applie to companies that are over a certain size. By recollection, it applies if the business employs more than 15 people.
There are situations where exemptions exist from the provisions of EEO legislation; it is entirely permissable to hire Asian models to market Chinese food or to have only females working in a womans' refuge.
Without knowing the details of the 8 woman's case, my gut feeling is that VB did not want to hire them based on several criteria:
1) They were perceived to be too old for the required VB marketing image.
2) They were ex-AN and probably embued with the Ansett cultural approach.
3) They may have been percieved by VB recruitment to be too intellegent, assertive and aware of their industrial rights.
I fully recognise the subjectivity that I am applying in this instance, however I base this upon the following facts and rumours:
a) Fact: VB Flight operations decided that it not employ any pilots on the Alex Patterson 'scab' list. A group of pilots on this list notified VB that they intended legal action alleging discrimination on grounds of political and industrial affiliation. Subsequently, a small group of pilots(who were considered to be not too dirty) on this list were hired. This move would 'prove' that Virgin were not discriminating against pilots on the list.
b) Fact: Some ex-AN flight attendants were hired by VB over the last few years. It was made clear to one/some/many/all( I am not going to say what I know) that any pro-Ansett talk was 'discouraged' at VB and would have 'consequences'.
c) Fact: Group of VB staff came into the AN terminal at BNE on Sept 12, 2001. A person on duty there at the time told me that they had the attitude of those who had come to gloat.
d) Rumour: Senior people at VB organised a party to celebrate ANs' demise.
e) Rumour: Management at VB tell new staff a load of bollocks about AN. This is done so as to develop a certain corporate culture at VB.
And others..too many to mention..
The above facts and rumours and other things that I have experienced and/or heard about VB lead me to feel that the 8 woman were simply not welcome at VB for a variety of reasons. Only reason 1) infringes the law.
Fact a), above, shows that VB has a history of being caught out on the discrimination allegation and will then move to employ certain people so as to look good. To me, this shows laughable desperation and is a defacto admission of guilt.
Yellow Rocket, I hate to tell you this, but drills of the complexity of the 7 that you describe can be successfully taught to anyone with an IQ above 75.
EEO laws are designed to protect the public from practices that are percieved to be unethical. These laws applie to companies that are over a certain size. By recollection, it applies if the business employs more than 15 people.
There are situations where exemptions exist from the provisions of EEO legislation; it is entirely permissable to hire Asian models to market Chinese food or to have only females working in a womans' refuge.
Without knowing the details of the 8 woman's case, my gut feeling is that VB did not want to hire them based on several criteria:
1) They were perceived to be too old for the required VB marketing image.
2) They were ex-AN and probably embued with the Ansett cultural approach.
3) They may have been percieved by VB recruitment to be too intellegent, assertive and aware of their industrial rights.
I fully recognise the subjectivity that I am applying in this instance, however I base this upon the following facts and rumours:
a) Fact: VB Flight operations decided that it not employ any pilots on the Alex Patterson 'scab' list. A group of pilots on this list notified VB that they intended legal action alleging discrimination on grounds of political and industrial affiliation. Subsequently, a small group of pilots(who were considered to be not too dirty) on this list were hired. This move would 'prove' that Virgin were not discriminating against pilots on the list.
b) Fact: Some ex-AN flight attendants were hired by VB over the last few years. It was made clear to one/some/many/all( I am not going to say what I know) that any pro-Ansett talk was 'discouraged' at VB and would have 'consequences'.
c) Fact: Group of VB staff came into the AN terminal at BNE on Sept 12, 2001. A person on duty there at the time told me that they had the attitude of those who had come to gloat.
d) Rumour: Senior people at VB organised a party to celebrate ANs' demise.
e) Rumour: Management at VB tell new staff a load of bollocks about AN. This is done so as to develop a certain corporate culture at VB.
And others..too many to mention..
The above facts and rumours and other things that I have experienced and/or heard about VB lead me to feel that the 8 woman were simply not welcome at VB for a variety of reasons. Only reason 1) infringes the law.
Fact a), above, shows that VB has a history of being caught out on the discrimination allegation and will then move to employ certain people so as to look good. To me, this shows laughable desperation and is a defacto admission of guilt.
Yellow Rocket, I hate to tell you this, but drills of the complexity of the 7 that you describe can be successfully taught to anyone with an IQ above 75.
Last edited by Ralph the Bong; 28th Aug 2004 at 06:09.
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Ralph,
Good points indeed, but....
Yes, disciminating against age is illegal, if the person is deemed to be capable, EXCEPT for the age. At the same time, discrimination based on OTHER factors - cultural, psychological, physical etc are equally as discriminatory!
Let's put it bluntly - if you had a candidate female FA that was EMINENTLY qualified, had the personality of a godess, the body of a super model, was the right age, but was just danged FUGLY to look at, would ANY airline SERIOUSLY employ them? SERIOUSLY? IMAGE! It's discimination just as much as being ageist.
We do NOt know why these 8 FA's were rejected by Dj. They ASSUME, repeat ASSUME, it is based on their age.
We all know that assume means "Makes and ass out of You to me"
Good points indeed, but....
Yes, disciminating against age is illegal, if the person is deemed to be capable, EXCEPT for the age. At the same time, discrimination based on OTHER factors - cultural, psychological, physical etc are equally as discriminatory!
Let's put it bluntly - if you had a candidate female FA that was EMINENTLY qualified, had the personality of a godess, the body of a super model, was the right age, but was just danged FUGLY to look at, would ANY airline SERIOUSLY employ them? SERIOUSLY? IMAGE! It's discimination just as much as being ageist.
We do NOt know why these 8 FA's were rejected by Dj. They ASSUME, repeat ASSUME, it is based on their age.
We all know that assume means "Makes and ass out of You to me"
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
As they have been on television, and received quite a bit of media attention in Oz, apparently, is there a chance that someone might list the names of the ladies involved, merely out of curiosity for the ex-AN staff (esp. those of us o/s)?
Last edited by Kaptin M; 29th Aug 2004 at 05:21.
Just Binos
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Nice one KM! Always with an eye for the mature ladies!
And since I am unlikely to know any of them by name, how about some photos please?
(Err, yes I know girls. It's irony.... I'm not sexist at all)
And since I am unlikely to know any of them by name, how about some photos please?
(Err, yes I know girls. It's irony.... I'm not sexist at all)
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Anyone who can remember the Cabin Prep drill, Evacuation drill, and the 5 different Initial and Evacuation command drills IS NO BIMBOID.
I can teach my dog those drills. I've shaved his arse but he hasn't quite learnt to walk backward. When I think he's ready I'm sending him in for the interview.
By the way he has something in common with yellow rocket but his is red.
why would anyone use a prune-handle after a shlong?
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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Binos; Nothing wrong with the mature Ladies! I (ahem) appreciate 'em m'self.
Pass the photos along to me when you're finished with them, would you?
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
Pass the photos along to me when you're finished with them, would you?
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
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Gaunty
Sorry for not responding sooner, but have been totally self-indulgent committing aviation, for the last week.
As for "winding back the odometer" - if you are referring to a vehicle, a la my BAPOS Toyota Hi-Lux, I can recommend the likes of the "Dodgy Bros", or in the case of something infinately more complex whose chasis was designed for speed, but regrettably, is now accommodatingly more luxurious than initially intended, may I suggest the "Nip and Tuck" man, under Cosmetic Sugeons, in any good Yellow Pages.
Sorry for not responding sooner, but have been totally self-indulgent committing aviation, for the last week.
As for "winding back the odometer" - if you are referring to a vehicle, a la my BAPOS Toyota Hi-Lux, I can recommend the likes of the "Dodgy Bros", or in the case of something infinately more complex whose chasis was designed for speed, but regrettably, is now accommodatingly more luxurious than initially intended, may I suggest the "Nip and Tuck" man, under Cosmetic Sugeons, in any good Yellow Pages.
.
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RTA wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong but this sounds like a few of the pilots I know and I still enjoy working with them. Now, your point would be ..............?
If anirlines didn't have a certain criteria, I am sure we would see 4ft FA's, 120 KG FA's, Dyslexic FA's, and cross-dressing FA's
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My point merely is that ALL airlines have a set criterion for Flight Attendants, as do most HOSPITALITY establishments.
As I am sure you are well aware, pilots fall into yet another category, where looks, height etc are all secondary.
As I am sure you are well aware, pilots fall into yet another category, where looks, height etc are all secondary.
Grandpa Aerotart
I hear that ex AN staff are very unpopular at Jetstar...non stop whinging about how much better AN was etc.
Perhaps VB doesn't want their 'can do' staff attitude 'infected' anymore by ex AN staff who live in the past....as seems to be happening at other places.
Certainly I hear a LOT of bad press towards ex AN pilots scattered around Asia and the ME.
Not saying it's all by any means but a significant % seem to be making it very hard for the rest.
And to reiterate...I'M NOT SAYING ALL BUT A SIGNIFICANT % SEEM TO BE MAKING IT HARD FOR THE REST!!!
Perhaps VB doesn't want their 'can do' staff attitude 'infected' anymore by ex AN staff who live in the past....as seems to be happening at other places.
Certainly I hear a LOT of bad press towards ex AN pilots scattered around Asia and the ME.
Not saying it's all by any means but a significant % seem to be making it very hard for the rest.
And to reiterate...I'M NOT SAYING ALL BUT A SIGNIFICANT % SEEM TO BE MAKING IT HARD FOR THE REST!!!