QF and J* Pilots - One Happy Family?
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QF and J* Pilots - One Happy Family?
Well, its finally out. The MOU for the integration of J* pilots into QF mainline and vice versa. Both groups need to vote on it before it is approved.
Just wondering what are the thoughts of the members of both groups?
Personally, paying for an A320 endorsement is abhorent IMHO. And I'm not sure whether some of the J* guys will be interested because they will need to pass the QF selection criteria, something they have already missed out on.
So what happens if it gets voted down?
Just wondering what are the thoughts of the members of both groups?
Personally, paying for an A320 endorsement is abhorent IMHO. And I'm not sure whether some of the J* guys will be interested because they will need to pass the QF selection criteria, something they have already missed out on.
So what happens if it gets voted down?
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I can see it now……… not
Excuse me but can I apply to become a second officer?
I currently work for you and I have endorsements on B717 and A320 with thousands of hours, I would really like to be accepted as a real Qantas Pilot….
I am a real Qantas pilot and I demand my right to go from Second officer to command on the A320, this right was given to me by my father who was one of the original cadets and has been passed down from generation to generation. Pay for the endorsement I don’t know what the problem is I spent more money on renovating my swimming pool.
Excuse me but can I apply to become a second officer?
I currently work for you and I have endorsements on B717 and A320 with thousands of hours, I would really like to be accepted as a real Qantas Pilot….
I am a real Qantas pilot and I demand my right to go from Second officer to command on the A320, this right was given to me by my father who was one of the original cadets and has been passed down from generation to generation. Pay for the endorsement I don’t know what the problem is I spent more money on renovating my swimming pool.
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the J* guys will be interested because they will need to pass the QF selection criteria
Don't think that it would get my vote.
This idea that QF have the best recruitment process in the world is flawed - we all know its "blue star"!
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spinout, NJS guys/gals been going through similar situation for years ( yeh, I know they are not owned by QF ) QF reckon they are alright to fly around with 90 QF pax on an overcomplicated pommy bucket of rivets, in command, but not good enough to make tea and coffee on a long haul flight, go figure.
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As is probably obvious from my original post, I'm not a big advocate of this agreement either. But spinout, I think you have probably warped things a little.
First, a second officer in QF will likely earn as much as, if not more than an A320 Capt in J*. So, some J* pilots may find the lifestyle combined with the moolah quite attractive. Spin, your suggestion that being a SO in QF isn't quite the bees knees just doesnt work. A lot of guys want to stay a SO forever because it is a good job. Where else do you get paid that much money and do that little work?
And your second statement that being a SO in QF has a god given right (or paternal!) to a 320 command is wrong and somewhat offensive. I'm a bit past being a SO, but from a personal viewpoint, my father was a working class man who never was in a position to influence my career. And most of us in QF are in this category. I'll not argue that there seems to have been some instances of favourtism based upon family, but they are rare.
Adama is likely right. This seems to have been a waste of time by all parties.
First, a second officer in QF will likely earn as much as, if not more than an A320 Capt in J*. So, some J* pilots may find the lifestyle combined with the moolah quite attractive. Spin, your suggestion that being a SO in QF isn't quite the bees knees just doesnt work. A lot of guys want to stay a SO forever because it is a good job. Where else do you get paid that much money and do that little work?
And your second statement that being a SO in QF has a god given right (or paternal!) to a 320 command is wrong and somewhat offensive. I'm a bit past being a SO, but from a personal viewpoint, my father was a working class man who never was in a position to influence my career. And most of us in QF are in this category. I'll not argue that there seems to have been some instances of favourtism based upon family, but they are rare.
Adama is likely right. This seems to have been a waste of time by all parties.
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The absurdity is that a Jetstar captain (Qantas employee) with a B717 and A320 endorsement with thousands of hours has to undergo the full Interview process including psychometric and skills test to transfer to mainline as a second officer.
I also understand that the majority of mainline pilots are normal people who have worked hard to get where they are today, it’s just a shame the old guard/original cadets haven’t been able to accept that the process has flaws.
The interview process is fine for new employees off the street but to those who are already in the company and performing their duties to the Qantas standard, it is totally a waste of time and proves nothing, or should I say proves the system is flawed as is testament to those who have been found not up to scratch but are able to obtain employment with Cathay, Dragon, Air Hong Kong, Eva and Virgin. (have i missed any)
Cactus Jack I did not mean to offend just state the extremes...
I also understand an agreement has all but been agreed to between Eastern/Sunstate management and Jetstar Management, I wonder what that will hold... maybe Jetstar will only take pilots who have failed the Qantas Mainline interview process....
I also understand that the majority of mainline pilots are normal people who have worked hard to get where they are today, it’s just a shame the old guard/original cadets haven’t been able to accept that the process has flaws.
The interview process is fine for new employees off the street but to those who are already in the company and performing their duties to the Qantas standard, it is totally a waste of time and proves nothing, or should I say proves the system is flawed as is testament to those who have been found not up to scratch but are able to obtain employment with Cathay, Dragon, Air Hong Kong, Eva and Virgin. (have i missed any)
Cactus Jack I did not mean to offend just state the extremes...
I also understand an agreement has all but been agreed to between Eastern/Sunstate management and Jetstar Management, I wonder what that will hold... maybe Jetstar will only take pilots who have failed the Qantas Mainline interview process....
Last edited by spinout; 7th Aug 2004 at 05:22.
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Spinout, can't agree more.
Take for example the Qantas pilots who are ex Australian Airlines (TN) when they were bought out by Qantas back in the early 90's. Now I could be wrong here, but I am fairly certain that the hundreds of pilots involved there, were not put through stage one to fly a plane with the white roo on the tail.
Can someone please explain what the difference is with a pilot working at Jetstar, which was bought out by Qantas, and why they would have to do stage one etc?
Take for example the Qantas pilots who are ex Australian Airlines (TN) when they were bought out by Qantas back in the early 90's. Now I could be wrong here, but I am fairly certain that the hundreds of pilots involved there, were not put through stage one to fly a plane with the white roo on the tail.
Can someone please explain what the difference is with a pilot working at Jetstar, which was bought out by Qantas, and why they would have to do stage one etc?
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As far as Second officers converting to A320 commands, you will probably see quite a bit of it because nearly a third of the 400 SO's are ex Ansett and a lot of them have plenty of Airbus FBW time.
As far as Jetstar captains becoming SO's in main line. Why not. I've got nearly 20 years in the industry in both the left and right hand seat of airliners and in the last 2 years the back seat. The SO job is what you make of it. Good money, HEAPS and HEAPS of time off, a chance to sample some of worlds better beers and 99% of the guys I work with are great blokes. The job does lack a little bit of professional satisfaction but I manage to swat the flying bug every now and then in a C172.
As far as Jetstar captains becoming SO's in main line. Why not. I've got nearly 20 years in the industry in both the left and right hand seat of airliners and in the last 2 years the back seat. The SO job is what you make of it. Good money, HEAPS and HEAPS of time off, a chance to sample some of worlds better beers and 99% of the guys I work with are great blokes. The job does lack a little bit of professional satisfaction but I manage to swat the flying bug every now and then in a C172.
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None taken, spin. I understand your sentiments, and quite frequently agree!
Interesting...? Haven't heard anything here. Care to explain what this one is about?
I understand your sentiments, and quite frequently agree!
I also understand an agreement has all but been agreed to between Eastern/Sunstate management and Jetstar Management, I wonder what that will hold.
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Perhaps you clowns should read the MOU before sprouting off on this forum.
J* will be given "ghost" seniority numbers in the QF list so they could stay as an A320 Captain and then go into QF as an A330, B767, AXXX, BXXX, whatever CAPTAIN.
No J* pilot will have to start as an S/O if they don't want to. It may be 15+ years or so, but hey, not a bad semi-retirement plan. Early 30's A320 Command now, mid 40's A330 Command, not bad I say. Wish I were in J*.
The selection criteria bit is crap, but it's a long way off and sense may prevail. Should be just another endorsement, and may well be.
I can't see why J* would knock this back, the deal is so one sided, makes you wonder who AIPA is really representing.
J* will be given "ghost" seniority numbers in the QF list so they could stay as an A320 Captain and then go into QF as an A330, B767, AXXX, BXXX, whatever CAPTAIN.
No J* pilot will have to start as an S/O if they don't want to. It may be 15+ years or so, but hey, not a bad semi-retirement plan. Early 30's A320 Command now, mid 40's A330 Command, not bad I say. Wish I were in J*.
The selection criteria bit is crap, but it's a long way off and sense may prevail. Should be just another endorsement, and may well be.
I can't see why J* would knock this back, the deal is so one sided, makes you wonder who AIPA is really representing.
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rehab,
thing is, who would, after enjoying the domestic flying lifestyle for the 15+ years as you say, want to firstly pay for an AXXX endorsment then live out of a suitcase and fly 11 hour sectors in the same, just bigger AXXX aircraft? It's only the extra pay. I'd rather spend my time with my family than sleeping in a hotel overseas recovering from jet lag. Domestic flying rules! The J* pilots will knock back the deal as will the QF pilots....big waste of time.
thing is, who would, after enjoying the domestic flying lifestyle for the 15+ years as you say, want to firstly pay for an AXXX endorsment then live out of a suitcase and fly 11 hour sectors in the same, just bigger AXXX aircraft? It's only the extra pay. I'd rather spend my time with my family than sleeping in a hotel overseas recovering from jet lag. Domestic flying rules! The J* pilots will knock back the deal as will the QF pilots....big waste of time.
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Agree with your sentiments entirely, Capt C, but therein lies the problem.
The work that has gone in is futile if it is not what the members want. And there was virtually zero consultation with the membership on this one. We were continuously hit over the head with the old 'its this or nothing at all' line.
The membership would probably prefer the 'nothing' option to this load of crap.
The work that has gone in is futile if it is not what the members want. And there was virtually zero consultation with the membership on this one. We were continuously hit over the head with the old 'its this or nothing at all' line.
The membership would probably prefer the 'nothing' option to this load of crap.
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Having gone through the documentation fairly quickly, it is pretty much what I expected: certainly not too bad for Jet* pilots but absolutely nothing in it for QF pilots, unless paying for endorsement so that you can have one of the 7 in 20 positions and earn 40% less pay is considered a win......
I'm told it's more strategically oriented - designed so that Jet* pilots want to come onboard wth AIPA, thus shoring up the bargaining power within Australia in the future. That concept makes huge sense. But why go through all this MOU stuff to reach that point? EVERY Jet* pilot should see the merit of joining AIPA even without these MOU's. Why did we just not sell the benefits of AIPA membership to Jet*?
I doubt very much QF pilots are going to be very supportive of the MOU's unless they believe it's the only solution to the bigger problem. As it stands, most QF pilots won't have a bar of the offer of Jet* employment in these MOU's. That will be a big blow to the strategic plan and play into the hands of "divide-and-conquer" masters we have.
I'm told it's more strategically oriented - designed so that Jet* pilots want to come onboard wth AIPA, thus shoring up the bargaining power within Australia in the future. That concept makes huge sense. But why go through all this MOU stuff to reach that point? EVERY Jet* pilot should see the merit of joining AIPA even without these MOU's. Why did we just not sell the benefits of AIPA membership to Jet*?
I doubt very much QF pilots are going to be very supportive of the MOU's unless they believe it's the only solution to the bigger problem. As it stands, most QF pilots won't have a bar of the offer of Jet* employment in these MOU's. That will be a big blow to the strategic plan and play into the hands of "divide-and-conquer" masters we have.
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Quite a few of those ex Ansett A320 guys are off to Singapore to crew the new start up. Will there be any left?
Cost of an A330 endorsemnt after an A320 endorsement? Not much. Super Annuation benifits for Q A330 Captains versus Jetstar Captains would be significant (Re RBLs) let alone the pay! It could be attractive for Jetstar pilots. (I'm not in Jetstar)
Cost of an A330 endorsemnt after an A320 endorsement? Not much. Super Annuation benifits for Q A330 Captains versus Jetstar Captains would be significant (Re RBLs) let alone the pay! It could be attractive for Jetstar pilots. (I'm not in Jetstar)
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cj;
Once rejected, where would either parties stand? What would be 'nothing'? the times are a little too interesting for my liking!
Karmakoma; perhaps that could be a good way to get the regionals (sunnies/eaa) in on the act, progression onto a jet? (if wanted! not the be all/end all of course)
The membership would probably prefer the 'nothing' option to this load of crap.
Karmakoma; perhaps that could be a good way to get the regionals (sunnies/eaa) in on the act, progression onto a jet? (if wanted! not the be all/end all of course)
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CC. I certainly agree my friend. Some boredom around about now would be good. All this 'change' is really taxing my pacemaker. And 'nothing' may be a little too close to the mark.
I guess the question that poses is: Even though this MOU seems to do little for us in QF, will we be better off with it in place?
The other question that could be posed to the Impulse pilots is: If you fellas vote no to this deal, would you still be willing to join AIPA?
I guess the question that poses is: Even though this MOU seems to do little for us in QF, will we be better off with it in place?
The other question that could be posed to the Impulse pilots is: If you fellas vote no to this deal, would you still be willing to join AIPA?