Virgin Syd-Canberra-Syd Services Under Threat
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vb vs qf travel
Elektra is correct.
I was in Australia 3 years ago. Worked for a corporation owned by the commonwealth government.
The scenario there was simple. The General Manager attended a meeting. Asked all those in attendance their preferred carrier for australian travel.
The majority chose quantas, as per the reasons described by elektra, and the issue was closed.
Ridiculous from a taxpayers perspective. Me personally, would rather have an early morning flight with a view of the young VB girls with all those smiles. I'll leave it for others to catch the QF services with all those expired use by date types they cant get rid of.
I was in Australia 3 years ago. Worked for a corporation owned by the commonwealth government.
The scenario there was simple. The General Manager attended a meeting. Asked all those in attendance their preferred carrier for australian travel.
The majority chose quantas, as per the reasons described by elektra, and the issue was closed.
Ridiculous from a taxpayers perspective. Me personally, would rather have an early morning flight with a view of the young VB girls with all those smiles. I'll leave it for others to catch the QF services with all those expired use by date types they cant get rid of.
Join Date: May 2003
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It's simple really, bring back the CRJ, offer a user freindly timetable with lounges and flexibility and you will clean up on this market to both SYD and MEL.
The first airline in Australia that introduces a small regional jet to rural and high yeild markets like Canberra will clean up.
REX, theres a message in there for you.
If you think I am dreaming, back in Kendell days just before the collapse, the trend of pax to the RJ flights as compared to Saab was moving more in the favour of RJ's
The first airline in Australia that introduces a small regional jet to rural and high yeild markets like Canberra will clean up.
REX, theres a message in there for you.
If you think I am dreaming, back in Kendell days just before the collapse, the trend of pax to the RJ flights as compared to Saab was moving more in the favour of RJ's
Join Date: May 2003
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TIMMEEEE,
Your memory is short my friend it was not long ago that REX was complaining about Government patronage, and threatening to pull out of SYD-CBR.
As for GT-R,
You dont even belong here. Go find a Life.
Your memory is short my friend it was not long ago that REX was complaining about Government patronage, and threatening to pull out of SYD-CBR.
As for GT-R,
You dont even belong here. Go find a Life.
Music Quizmeister
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Argus -
Yeah, I think it is...never claimed it but.....(must try this year)
Not that it will help - what with other ways they (Government) sticth me up ((superannuation liability etc) I still end up owing them money.......
Yeah, I think it is...never claimed it but.....(must try this year)
Not that it will help - what with other ways they (Government) sticth me up ((superannuation liability etc) I still end up owing them money.......
Just had a quick peruse of the QF, VB and Rex websites to check prices SY-CB return, hypothetically wanting to fly on Friday...
QF $204
VB $225
REX $178
Although this is only for 1 trip, it is common for the carriers all to be very similar in price. So why exactly should the government, or anyone for that matter, choose VB? Save money? It's just the usual sooking from Godfrey that for some reason the public seem to fall for.
Coming soon.... Virgin Business Class, complete with coin operated recline, personal confection vending machines and cask wine at $5 a cup
QF $204
VB $225
REX $178
Although this is only for 1 trip, it is common for the carriers all to be very similar in price. So why exactly should the government, or anyone for that matter, choose VB? Save money? It's just the usual sooking from Godfrey that for some reason the public seem to fall for.
Coming soon.... Virgin Business Class, complete with coin operated recline, personal confection vending machines and cask wine at $5 a cup
Join Date: Apr 2000
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I am currently working for a Federal Government department (on contract - wouldn't take a permant PS job!) in Canberra - I won't say which one but they do use Qantas Travel Services as their travel booking company. I don't work in the travel section but we share a printer and yesterday there was an unclaimed printout with numerous flight bookings on it. There were around a dozen bookings for a total of around 30 flights and every single flight was with QF - not a single Virgin or Rex sector.
Just out of interest I did a comparison of the fares paid on the first three bookings with what I could obtain on the internet for flights departing at around the same time with Qantas, Virgin and Rex (none of the sectors are flown by Jetstar).
Booking 1 - Melbourne/Canberra return - Ticketed price = $701
Cheapest - $409 using VB to Canberra and QF return (no VB flight at the required return time)
Booking 2 - Sydney/Canberra return - Ticketed price = $380
Cheapest - $199 using Rex to Canberra, QF return (QF $5 cheaper than Rex on return journey but $50 higher on other leg)
Booking 3 - Brisbane/Sydney/Canberra/Brisbane - Ticketed price = $1075
Cheapest = $365 using VB for BNE/SYD and CBR/BNE, Rex on SYD/CBR
Total Ticket Value = $2156
Using Cheapest Fares = $973
So using the true "cheapest available" fares would save over 50% of the cost for this sample (and I have no doubt the overall travel budget).
Just out of interest I did a comparison of the fares paid on the first three bookings with what I could obtain on the internet for flights departing at around the same time with Qantas, Virgin and Rex (none of the sectors are flown by Jetstar).
Booking 1 - Melbourne/Canberra return - Ticketed price = $701
Cheapest - $409 using VB to Canberra and QF return (no VB flight at the required return time)
Booking 2 - Sydney/Canberra return - Ticketed price = $380
Cheapest - $199 using Rex to Canberra, QF return (QF $5 cheaper than Rex on return journey but $50 higher on other leg)
Booking 3 - Brisbane/Sydney/Canberra/Brisbane - Ticketed price = $1075
Cheapest = $365 using VB for BNE/SYD and CBR/BNE, Rex on SYD/CBR
Total Ticket Value = $2156
Using Cheapest Fares = $973
So using the true "cheapest available" fares would save over 50% of the cost for this sample (and I have no doubt the overall travel budget).
Join Date: Apr 2000
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T.E.B. - Yes the research was done at home after work.
Argus - I would love to but unfortunately it would definitely be a breach of privacy and my contract conditions so I am not willing to do it (definitely not whilst I am still working there anyway!). If anyone wants more details I am happy to be contacted and I will pass on any additional information if I can legally.
Argus - I would love to but unfortunately it would definitely be a breach of privacy and my contract conditions so I am not willing to do it (definitely not whilst I am still working there anyway!). If anyone wants more details I am happy to be contacted and I will pass on any additional information if I can legally.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Terry
In all probability the fares that your saw are 'Pre - rebate'.
All major airline accounts negotiate a rebate based on the full fare.
In the Ferderal Govt's case it would be substantial.
In all probability the fares that your saw are 'Pre - rebate'.
All major airline accounts negotiate a rebate based on the full fare.
In the Ferderal Govt's case it would be substantial.
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Raider1
Longjohn
I don’t find your Sir Humphrey Appleby like reassurances at all convincing. Are you saying that the taxpayer is still being imposed upon, but not to the extent that TerryB claims?
If this is so, then you display a cavalier attitude to those whose taxes exacted from their daily toil pay your wages!
TerryB
There are statutory procedures in place in the Commonwealth Public Service to facilitate 'Whistleblowing'. See here. If you believe that there is impropriety or worse where you work, then you should make representations to the Head of your Agency.
Longjohn
I don’t find your Sir Humphrey Appleby like reassurances at all convincing. Are you saying that the taxpayer is still being imposed upon, but not to the extent that TerryB claims?
If this is so, then you display a cavalier attitude to those whose taxes exacted from their daily toil pay your wages!
TerryB
There are statutory procedures in place in the Commonwealth Public Service to facilitate 'Whistleblowing'. See here. If you believe that there is impropriety or worse where you work, then you should make representations to the Head of your Agency.
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Argus,
Get off your soap box.
You have no idea what the real fares being paid are, so before suggesting impropriety is being conducted by the Federal Government and Australia's largest airline no less, I suggest you take some time out to learn how the system works.
Furthermore, if you feel so strongly about the issue then I would suggest you can obtain the REAL amounts being paid by requesting it under FOI.
Should you then have some FACTS then perhaps that would be the time to go scalp hunting.
Personally I could not give a toss, I was merely pointing out a perhaps overlooked point which could help to explain the situation. I certainly was not looking for your banal insults.
On another note, I am otherwise impressed that someone of your obvious great intellect would stoop to such levels as to watch 'Yes Minister'.
Get off your soap box.
You have no idea what the real fares being paid are, so before suggesting impropriety is being conducted by the Federal Government and Australia's largest airline no less, I suggest you take some time out to learn how the system works.
Furthermore, if you feel so strongly about the issue then I would suggest you can obtain the REAL amounts being paid by requesting it under FOI.
Should you then have some FACTS then perhaps that would be the time to go scalp hunting.
Personally I could not give a toss, I was merely pointing out a perhaps overlooked point which could help to explain the situation. I certainly was not looking for your banal insults.
On another note, I am otherwise impressed that someone of your obvious great intellect would stoop to such levels as to watch 'Yes Minister'.
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longjohn
You seem unduly sensitive about an issue for which you say
I'm flattered by your compliments. When faced with a potentially embarrassing situation, didn't Sir Humphrey also advise a strategy of personal vilification in order to divert attention away from the real issue?
TerryB asked why a dozen bookings made through QF Travel Services for around 30 QF flights should cost $2156 rather than $973 with VB or Rex - a difference of $1183.
You say TerryB's examples are "pre-rebate". It would be helpful if you could state what you say the rebate might be.
And as for a "soapbox", if that's how you want to describe a position of criticising public sector inefficiency and disregard for taxpayers' funds, then I make no apology for holding forth from same.
You seem unduly sensitive about an issue for which you say
Personally I could not give a toss
TerryB asked why a dozen bookings made through QF Travel Services for around 30 QF flights should cost $2156 rather than $973 with VB or Rex - a difference of $1183.
You say TerryB's examples are "pre-rebate". It would be helpful if you could state what you say the rebate might be.
And as for a "soapbox", if that's how you want to describe a position of criticising public sector inefficiency and disregard for taxpayers' funds, then I make no apology for holding forth from same.
Last edited by Argus; 1st Aug 2004 at 12:25.
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I am not at that office today (and won't be again until Wednesday) so I can't investigate the details of the printout until then. I know the printout wasn't from a Qantas e-mail - it was an internal document with the details so I suspect that the airfares are the actual ones to be paid as I think the document would be used for billing purposes within the department as well.l try and confirm this on Wednesday.
Even assuming the airfares were pre-discount surely the discount wouldn't be 50% - I would be interested if anyone has any details on what the discount rates for government actually are?
Personally I think the fares paid are indicative of several problems within the travel arrangements the government has. Namely:
1. Using Qantas Travel as a travel provider is clearly inappropriate as they will always have a preference for ticketing with QF. All travel providers used by government should be independant from any airline. You wouldn't select a Holden Dealership as your preferred car supplier and expect them to sell you a Ford would you? In fact why use a travel provider at all - why not just have the travel clerks in the department book directly over the Internet?
From what I have heard of the telephone conversations between the travel clerks in the department and the Q travel people (obviously I only ever hear the clerk side of the conversation) they will often only look at Virgin/Rex if specifically requested. Conversations such as:
Clerk: He needs to fly back on Friday after 3PM
QT: ????
Clerk: So 2:30 is available but then nothing until 7pm?
QT: ???
Clerk: What about Rex?
QT: ???
Clerk: Put him on the 3:30 Rex flight then.
Now to me this convesation implies that QT is not even looking at anything other then QF flights unless specifically requested
2. Ridulous over-use of business class travel in this particular department (or section of the department). Some of those Sydney-Canberra flights on that printout were booked as Business Class. I have worked for quite a few private-sector organisations and in the private sector the policy is generally economy class for flights less than 3 or 4 hours - even for senior executives. How can anyone justify paying double or triple the fare to fly Business on a 40 minute flight?
3. ALL fares seem to be booked as fully-flexible/refundable even when this is not required. Again in that sample I had the flights were being arranged for interstate people to travel to Canberra for a specific meeting. The timings for these meetings are "set in stone" - they are NEVER changed so why book flexible airfares for the attendees? Occassionally there may be a cancellation for one person due to illness, etc, but it would be far cheaper to book non-flexible airfares and accept the loss on those occassional cancellations - it would be more than compensated for by the reduced fares.
My point in all of this is that Rex and Virgin have a valid argument - our taxes are being wasted by the government preference for booking with QF (at least in the department I am in). Now maybe some people think that is OK. Maybe some people think a public servant NEEDS to have business class comfort on his/her 40 minute flight and you are OK with them spending an extra WEEKS worth of your tax money on that single flight. Maybe it is OK for them to spend a few hundred dollars extra so that the PS doesn't have to pay $8 for his in-flight snack (although why not give them $8 extra travel allowance instead) and can earn those FF points. Is that money well spent????
Even assuming the airfares were pre-discount surely the discount wouldn't be 50% - I would be interested if anyone has any details on what the discount rates for government actually are?
Personally I think the fares paid are indicative of several problems within the travel arrangements the government has. Namely:
1. Using Qantas Travel as a travel provider is clearly inappropriate as they will always have a preference for ticketing with QF. All travel providers used by government should be independant from any airline. You wouldn't select a Holden Dealership as your preferred car supplier and expect them to sell you a Ford would you? In fact why use a travel provider at all - why not just have the travel clerks in the department book directly over the Internet?
From what I have heard of the telephone conversations between the travel clerks in the department and the Q travel people (obviously I only ever hear the clerk side of the conversation) they will often only look at Virgin/Rex if specifically requested. Conversations such as:
Clerk: He needs to fly back on Friday after 3PM
QT: ????
Clerk: So 2:30 is available but then nothing until 7pm?
QT: ???
Clerk: What about Rex?
QT: ???
Clerk: Put him on the 3:30 Rex flight then.
Now to me this convesation implies that QT is not even looking at anything other then QF flights unless specifically requested
2. Ridulous over-use of business class travel in this particular department (or section of the department). Some of those Sydney-Canberra flights on that printout were booked as Business Class. I have worked for quite a few private-sector organisations and in the private sector the policy is generally economy class for flights less than 3 or 4 hours - even for senior executives. How can anyone justify paying double or triple the fare to fly Business on a 40 minute flight?
3. ALL fares seem to be booked as fully-flexible/refundable even when this is not required. Again in that sample I had the flights were being arranged for interstate people to travel to Canberra for a specific meeting. The timings for these meetings are "set in stone" - they are NEVER changed so why book flexible airfares for the attendees? Occassionally there may be a cancellation for one person due to illness, etc, but it would be far cheaper to book non-flexible airfares and accept the loss on those occassional cancellations - it would be more than compensated for by the reduced fares.
My point in all of this is that Rex and Virgin have a valid argument - our taxes are being wasted by the government preference for booking with QF (at least in the department I am in). Now maybe some people think that is OK. Maybe some people think a public servant NEEDS to have business class comfort on his/her 40 minute flight and you are OK with them spending an extra WEEKS worth of your tax money on that single flight. Maybe it is OK for them to spend a few hundred dollars extra so that the PS doesn't have to pay $8 for his in-flight snack (although why not give them $8 extra travel allowance instead) and can earn those FF points. Is that money well spent????
Don Quixote Impersonator
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You wouldn't select a Holden Dealership as your preferred car supplier and expect them to sell you a Ford would you?
How about a Government dept buying a brand spanking new Cessna from the local Piper dealer, no tender process either.
