JetStar & QF pilots on same seniority list.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: North son, I say go North..........
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Where I get lost in all this banter is the Kindergarten mentality of I'm a better pilot than you??????????? Or that bikes better than mine...
Fark me they trained a monkey to go to space (well in the movies anyway).
Lets all admit one thing, flying is not hard, it is a discipline. No one is going to employ anyone that is unsafe and anyone can be trained to operate a certain way or type of machinery... Sh*t I'm proof of that... someone taught me to fly... so it proves anyone can fly...
Fark me they trained a monkey to go to space (well in the movies anyway).
Lets all admit one thing, flying is not hard, it is a discipline. No one is going to employ anyone that is unsafe and anyone can be trained to operate a certain way or type of machinery... Sh*t I'm proof of that... someone taught me to fly... so it proves anyone can fly...
Join Date: Feb 2002
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Very True High Altitude but the fact remains that whilst alot of people out there can fly a plane, some are more suited than others.
We all know there are alot of very average lawyers out there but when we need the best possible representation we go for a known few with an outstanding track record for representation.
Ditto with doctors/general practitioners and surgeons.
Pilots are just the same but although being trained to a high standard, they must perform to that high standard consistently.Some airlines have different standards than others although there is a minimum requirement to be met in each case.
Unlike doctors and lawyers, the pilot fraternity have to display their ability and worth on a regular basis.
Now not saying that airline A is better than airline B, but certain airlines have prerequisites and hoops to jump through in order to gain employment.
Yes they have different standards.
That doesn't necessarily mean a candidate that is rejected from airline A isnt a good pilot - far from it.
All it means is that for some obscure reason that particular candidate doesnt fit the requirements what that airline are looking for.
For some airlines being able to fly an aircraft is not the only requirement.
The ability to get along with others in a crew environment is tantamount along with the ability to communicate effectively, problem solve and follow standard operating procedures when under pressure.
Ultimately someone that would be a happy employee that would give 20+ years service for example would be preferable over someone more opportunistic that gets an endorsement and goes overseas after a short period.
I know of some that have failed the entry test with some airlines, only to go to Asia and get not only a command up there but put into a position in management.
No system is perfect.
We all know there are alot of very average lawyers out there but when we need the best possible representation we go for a known few with an outstanding track record for representation.
Ditto with doctors/general practitioners and surgeons.
Pilots are just the same but although being trained to a high standard, they must perform to that high standard consistently.Some airlines have different standards than others although there is a minimum requirement to be met in each case.
Unlike doctors and lawyers, the pilot fraternity have to display their ability and worth on a regular basis.
Now not saying that airline A is better than airline B, but certain airlines have prerequisites and hoops to jump through in order to gain employment.
Yes they have different standards.
That doesn't necessarily mean a candidate that is rejected from airline A isnt a good pilot - far from it.
All it means is that for some obscure reason that particular candidate doesnt fit the requirements what that airline are looking for.
For some airlines being able to fly an aircraft is not the only requirement.
The ability to get along with others in a crew environment is tantamount along with the ability to communicate effectively, problem solve and follow standard operating procedures when under pressure.
Ultimately someone that would be a happy employee that would give 20+ years service for example would be preferable over someone more opportunistic that gets an endorsement and goes overseas after a short period.
I know of some that have failed the entry test with some airlines, only to go to Asia and get not only a command up there but put into a position in management.
No system is perfect.
True, but I doubt (and hope) that the crap that is thrown around here by several cybergeeks is not representative of the respective company's majority.
Nonetheless, I doubt that Geoff D @ QF etc waste their time like we do reading this hype.
Nonetheless, I doubt that Geoff D @ QF etc waste their time like we do reading this hype.
timmeee,
I agree with your comments. However it sounds a bit like you're saying that because you had to go through these inperfect hoops (bit of a "I did the hard yards" sort of thing), then everyone else should have to as well.
Does anyone know what QF's "requirements" were when they started up? Did you have to have HSC physics? Did you have to do a skill and psych test? I don't think so.
Using the logic of certain ppl on this forum, and ppl I have spoken to elsewhere, then the pilots who built this airline to what it is today are somehow inferior to your mighty selves. Get real!
Something else I find interesting is that several mainline pilots i know would be happy to pop across to J* to get a direct airbus command and then go back to mainline, but it's not ok for J* guys to jump into the mainline queue. Hypocritical? Selfish?
As ST said, at the moment it's pilot group A vs pilot group B vs Pilot group C, etc with managements waiting like vultures to take out the "winner".
Can't you see that management don't give a f*@k about who crews their aircraft, only about getting a fatter bonus. As long as there are "outcast" groups of pilots, they threaten your jobs. The only solution is to put the past behind us and fight on a united front.
I agree with your comments. However it sounds a bit like you're saying that because you had to go through these inperfect hoops (bit of a "I did the hard yards" sort of thing), then everyone else should have to as well.
Does anyone know what QF's "requirements" were when they started up? Did you have to have HSC physics? Did you have to do a skill and psych test? I don't think so.
Using the logic of certain ppl on this forum, and ppl I have spoken to elsewhere, then the pilots who built this airline to what it is today are somehow inferior to your mighty selves. Get real!
Something else I find interesting is that several mainline pilots i know would be happy to pop across to J* to get a direct airbus command and then go back to mainline, but it's not ok for J* guys to jump into the mainline queue. Hypocritical? Selfish?
As ST said, at the moment it's pilot group A vs pilot group B vs Pilot group C, etc with managements waiting like vultures to take out the "winner".
Can't you see that management don't give a f*@k about who crews their aircraft, only about getting a fatter bonus. As long as there are "outcast" groups of pilots, they threaten your jobs. The only solution is to put the past behind us and fight on a united front.
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TIMEEEE
Mate, my reputation is as good as my last win in Court.
No win, no future fee!
Unlike doctors and lawyers, the pilot fraternity have to display their ability and worth on a regular basis.
No win, no future fee!
Join Date: Sep 2001
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Onya Pete'
Seem to recall some years back,one of your "Right calibre of Pilot"
planning to ditch off Cottesloe beach(W.A)rather than use the "Autoland" due unforecast fog in PH.
Seem to recall some years back,one of your "Right calibre of Pilot"
planning to ditch off Cottesloe beach(W.A)rather than use the "Autoland" due unforecast fog in PH.
Join Date: Jan 2004
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TIMMEEEE
"Unlike Doctors and lawyers, the pilot frternity have to display their ability and worth on a regular basis"
Correct me if i am wrong please " Pilots follow operating proceedures" If they dont an accident can occur. Cross ref the american airlines disaster where the captain "under slight pressure" forgot to engage the spoiler system on landing. I emphasise slight pressure.
To be successful in other professions you must innovate. If i want to make a million dollars as a succesful businessman i must innovate and think of new market entry strategies, cost systems etc etc etc etc. That means i must come up with the ideas and have the balls to implement and drive them through to completion.
So once again. Your job isa bit like a circus monkey. You follow the procedures, and sometimes the hoop is moved, so the sequence is changed slightly. You are trained and then you repeat. Nothing special is it.
Correct me if i am wrong please " Pilots follow operating proceedures" If they dont an accident can occur. Cross ref the american airlines disaster where the captain "under slight pressure" forgot to engage the spoiler system on landing. I emphasise slight pressure.
To be successful in other professions you must innovate. If i want to make a million dollars as a succesful businessman i must innovate and think of new market entry strategies, cost systems etc etc etc etc. That means i must come up with the ideas and have the balls to implement and drive them through to completion.
So once again. Your job isa bit like a circus monkey. You follow the procedures, and sometimes the hoop is moved, so the sequence is changed slightly. You are trained and then you repeat. Nothing special is it.
Join Date: Jul 2004
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The differnce is Ajax, is that you are not making a series of irreversable decisions in an ever decreasing time window at 8 miles per minute as a businessman (generally).
Additionally, flying involves complex psychomotor tasks, which sitting on yor fat ar$e in an office working out how to screw your workers to increase your own bonus does not.
Hopefully you will never be involved in an inflight emergency as a passenger, but if you are it will be the skill and experience of the pilots that will get you on the ground safely.
That would be 'somthing special' then, woundn't it ?
One other thing Ajax.
This is a professional pilots rumour network.
There are forums for SLF and the like.
I suggest you go there and leave informed comment to those who know what they are talking about
Additionally, flying involves complex psychomotor tasks, which sitting on yor fat ar$e in an office working out how to screw your workers to increase your own bonus does not.
Hopefully you will never be involved in an inflight emergency as a passenger, but if you are it will be the skill and experience of the pilots that will get you on the ground safely.
That would be 'somthing special' then, woundn't it ?
One other thing Ajax.
This is a professional pilots rumour network.
There are forums for SLF and the like.
I suggest you go there and leave informed comment to those who know what they are talking about
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Lets keep, this on thread and off abuse shall we chaps.
We can all learn from each other and we can all get a tad precious.
We are also ALL victims of circumstance and the vagaries of life in the fast lane, lets deal with it with the professionalism to which we all aspire shall we.
Some of us got lucky on the merry go round and were in the right spot at the right time and in most cases that is the only real distinction between us.
There are those who have played the hand dealt to them with grace and wisdom and there are those who are a right royal pain in the butt.
They come from both sides.
W
We can all learn from each other and we can all get a tad precious.
We are also ALL victims of circumstance and the vagaries of life in the fast lane, lets deal with it with the professionalism to which we all aspire shall we.
Some of us got lucky on the merry go round and were in the right spot at the right time and in most cases that is the only real distinction between us.
There are those who have played the hand dealt to them with grace and wisdom and there are those who are a right royal pain in the butt.
They come from both sides.
W
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Ajaxcatch.
Your comment has got to be a windup alert.
So would you willingly hop onto an airline that had lost 11 airframes over a 10 year period (wont name them) or for the sake of $100 extra fly on airline B with an outstanding safety record and a record of being both proactive in terms of safety as well as innovative?
According to your reckoning pilots are pilots.
Whilst SOP's are great there is no accounting for experience as SOP's have been known to fail on very rare occasions and experience has saved the day where SOP's didnt cater for that particular scenario.
You say being a pilot is abit like being a circus monkey Ajaxcatch, but as they say you pay peanuts............
And yes Ajaxcatch, the last time I checked my family has a 70 yo active barrister and a 68 yo practicing surgeon, both of which haven't had their qualifications checked or challenged in over 40 + years.
I suppose you recommend that for airlines worldwide also in order to save money and be "innovative"????
Your comment has got to be a windup alert.
So would you willingly hop onto an airline that had lost 11 airframes over a 10 year period (wont name them) or for the sake of $100 extra fly on airline B with an outstanding safety record and a record of being both proactive in terms of safety as well as innovative?
According to your reckoning pilots are pilots.
Whilst SOP's are great there is no accounting for experience as SOP's have been known to fail on very rare occasions and experience has saved the day where SOP's didnt cater for that particular scenario.
You say being a pilot is abit like being a circus monkey Ajaxcatch, but as they say you pay peanuts............
And yes Ajaxcatch, the last time I checked my family has a 70 yo active barrister and a 68 yo practicing surgeon, both of which haven't had their qualifications checked or challenged in over 40 + years.
I suppose you recommend that for airlines worldwide also in order to save money and be "innovative"????
I LOL Ajaxcatch,
You have,
Thank God you don't fly aircraft, now go away, there's a good boy.
Back to the subject.................
Lets assume the great one did make all pilots equal but some were employed by Qantas.
Impulse pilots, seeing their jobs possibly under threat, offered to fly the 320's for their current pay to secure employment. They can increase this pay later once the job is secure.......some pilots leave after gaining the 320 endorsement to better paying jobs. This is great news for those who stay as it supports their chance of a wage increase - the more that go OS the better it is for those who remain.
AIPA has finally rouses from it's arrogant slumber and recognizes the indians are not happy 100 or 200+ "light twin" commands have been lost to it's members. They elect to try and recruit the Impulse pilots by offering help with pay and conditions and now we are talking about datal seniority intergration, perhaps another "Y" would be more appropriate but it hasn't been touted yet.
The year 2006.......
Just as many a low cost operator have failed so too does Jetstar.
With AIPA's help however the Impulse pilots are on the "Q" seniority list and are entitled to be retrained.
There is however and excess of 500 pilots, some whom were employed even before the takeover of Impulse;
......wondering why they have to be furloughed indefinately.
Sorry AIPA looking after your members does not include putting non member Jetstar pilots on our seniority list.
You have,
ideas and have the balls to implement and drive them through to completion.
Back to the subject.................
Lets assume the great one did make all pilots equal but some were employed by Qantas.
Impulse pilots, seeing their jobs possibly under threat, offered to fly the 320's for their current pay to secure employment. They can increase this pay later once the job is secure.......some pilots leave after gaining the 320 endorsement to better paying jobs. This is great news for those who stay as it supports their chance of a wage increase - the more that go OS the better it is for those who remain.
AIPA has finally rouses from it's arrogant slumber and recognizes the indians are not happy 100 or 200+ "light twin" commands have been lost to it's members. They elect to try and recruit the Impulse pilots by offering help with pay and conditions and now we are talking about datal seniority intergration, perhaps another "Y" would be more appropriate but it hasn't been touted yet.
The year 2006.......
Just as many a low cost operator have failed so too does Jetstar.
With AIPA's help however the Impulse pilots are on the "Q" seniority list and are entitled to be retrained.
There is however and excess of 500 pilots, some whom were employed even before the takeover of Impulse;
......wondering why they have to be furloughed indefinately.
Sorry AIPA looking after your members does not include putting non member Jetstar pilots on our seniority list.
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Mudskipper,
Agree with what you have said except for two points.
Firstly, exen if it loses money hand over fist, Jetstar will not be allowed to publically 'fail'.
Too many big egos, too many potential bonuses involved - particularly Joyce and Dixon.
Second, we need the Jetstar pilots as members of AIPA for one reason, and one reason alone - to stop them backdooring us for flying the A380
Agree with what you have said except for two points.
Firstly, exen if it loses money hand over fist, Jetstar will not be allowed to publically 'fail'.
Too many big egos, too many potential bonuses involved - particularly Joyce and Dixon.
Second, we need the Jetstar pilots as members of AIPA for one reason, and one reason alone - to stop them backdooring us for flying the A380
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Sorry Pol, but I think that you may find that Mud's assertion that the Jetstar pilots are not wanted on our seniority list is correct for the vast majority of members. Most of the guys that I have flown with think that way, and it's very likely that the arrangements currently being made by AIPA will not make it through a member vote.
