Standards @ QF
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Thread Starter
Standards @ QF
What's good for the goose........................
"Let he who is without blame, cast the FIRST stone"!
Okay guys, I am NOT a religious freak!
As a matter of FACT, I don't claim ANY religious deposition.
Personally, I believe that each and every one of us is responsible for his/her own destiny/karma/call-it-what-you-will!!
That way, you can't "pass the buck"!!
Another cliche in aviation warns us "Be careful of the toes that you step on today, because they might (well) be connected to the @rse you have to kiss tomorrow!!"
There are more than likely a few smug QF PPRuNeR's whose eyes are smarting at the moment from another thread.
And it WILL happen again!
NO-ONE is immune from mistakes!
Each and every one of you employed in Australian aviation should be proud that YOU have been SELECTED to hold the position that you do.
It's because of your KNOWLEDGE & EXPERIENCE that you are where you are............................by the same token, if you ever fell sick and were unable to perform your duties, your position would be quickly filled by the next in line.
So whilst YOU might be considered the "best wo/man for the job" at selection time, the "next best" is less than heartbeat away!
As distant as that heartbeat might be, it is ONLY your PROFESSIONAL opinion!
"Let he who is without blame, cast the FIRST stone"!
Okay guys, I am NOT a religious freak!
As a matter of FACT, I don't claim ANY religious deposition.
Personally, I believe that each and every one of us is responsible for his/her own destiny/karma/call-it-what-you-will!!
That way, you can't "pass the buck"!!
Another cliche in aviation warns us "Be careful of the toes that you step on today, because they might (well) be connected to the @rse you have to kiss tomorrow!!"
There are more than likely a few smug QF PPRuNeR's whose eyes are smarting at the moment from another thread.
And it WILL happen again!
NO-ONE is immune from mistakes!
Each and every one of you employed in Australian aviation should be proud that YOU have been SELECTED to hold the position that you do.
It's because of your KNOWLEDGE & EXPERIENCE that you are where you are............................by the same token, if you ever fell sick and were unable to perform your duties, your position would be quickly filled by the next in line.
So whilst YOU might be considered the "best wo/man for the job" at selection time, the "next best" is less than heartbeat away!
As distant as that heartbeat might be, it is ONLY your PROFESSIONAL opinion!
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YOU may wish to remember your own advice, instead of pontificating on your high horse as though YOU are the only person on these forums who knows anything about aviation.
Unfortunately, your advice is a double edged sword.
Unfortunately, your advice is a double edged sword.
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There seem to be a lot of experts here on these forums dishing out advice on all matters aviation. Anonimity brings out the frustrated ones and empowers them with such self indulgent glory,that it makes one almost want to throw up.
Blowing sunshine up one's rear seems to be the popular thing. Hey Kaptin?
Thanks for the lecture though, I'll take it onboard.
Blowing sunshine up one's rear seems to be the popular thing. Hey Kaptin?
Thanks for the lecture though, I'll take it onboard.
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Gday Pete. Where ya been buddy?
The Kraptin has had a little diarrhea lately. So much so that its frothing from his mouth. You see he is still a little p1ssed about QF's role in '89. So he wants to continue his little campaign to put the guys down, no matter what.
But he is very, very transparent.
Personally, I'm glad he lost his job in '89. Couldn't think of a nicer bloke for it to happen to.
The Kraptin has had a little diarrhea lately. So much so that its frothing from his mouth. You see he is still a little p1ssed about QF's role in '89. So he wants to continue his little campaign to put the guys down, no matter what.
But he is very, very transparent.
Personally, I'm glad he lost his job in '89. Couldn't think of a nicer bloke for it to happen to.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Thread Starter
Argus has paraphrased it pretty well, Pete - and no, I'm not peeved that I didn't accept the offer to join QF (in 1990), prior to that it had always been my LAST choice of airline employment in Australia anyway, simply because long haul flying didn't appeal, plus the fact that one has to spend x number of years riding around on the jump seat - pretty soul-destroying, mind-numbing stuff for a pilot, don't you reckon!
Yousillik Hunt ("Gday Pete. Where ya been buddy?, undoubtedly screeched in a high falsetto) is "living" proof of that.
Yousillik Hunt ("Gday Pete. Where ya been buddy?, undoubtedly screeched in a high falsetto) is "living" proof of that.
1 &
Kap,
In spite of our differences, there are some amazing parallels between us.
I went through the QF mill in 2001 after the AN collapse and was offered a position.
During the process some of the best, most professional airline pilots I knew failed to get through the psycho babble selection process. I have no doubt QF missed out on some real talent thanks to it's intransigence in insisting on relying on it’s "Basic skills" BS.
I turned the job down (I had another offer) for many of the reasons you have related. I didn't want to do long haul. I didn't want to warm a jump seat after years as a real pilot. And not least, the money was cr@p! (I had always been paid more than an equivalent rank/TIS in QF. Guess that meant I was a safer pilot!!).
Mostly, though, I was keenly aware of an undercurrent of arrogance and ego amongst a lot of QF pilots.
I remember a good friend relating how, as an SO, he got a little high on an approach in a -400. With a huge stage sigh the Captain had, without a word, reached over and put the gear down. I've got around 7000hrs Multi Crew Command and currently sometimes fly with 300hr FOs, but I would NEVER THINK of doing such a thing. Make them aware they're high, suggest they "Dirty Up", make an "I" statement (I think the gear would be a good idea Jim), and if nothing was working, TAKE OVER. But to decide to change configuration and not bother to discuss it with the PF??!!
Worst thing was I related this to another QF friend (an FO), who’s opinion was "Fair enough, when I get a command, that's what I'd do."
It convinced me there was an endemic CRM problem in the company.
Why then, should we be surprised when a Captain reaches over and closes the throttles whilst an FO is half way through initiating a go-around.
Equally unsurprising that some QF pilots should leap upon the "We got in, therefore anyone who didn't is less safe" bandwagon when they feel threatened by a group from outside who can fly an aircraft just as effectively as they can. I'm sure within the cloistered halls of QF they can voice such ludicrous crud unchallenged...
But they won't get away with it here...
In spite of our differences, there are some amazing parallels between us.
I went through the QF mill in 2001 after the AN collapse and was offered a position.
During the process some of the best, most professional airline pilots I knew failed to get through the psycho babble selection process. I have no doubt QF missed out on some real talent thanks to it's intransigence in insisting on relying on it’s "Basic skills" BS.
I turned the job down (I had another offer) for many of the reasons you have related. I didn't want to do long haul. I didn't want to warm a jump seat after years as a real pilot. And not least, the money was cr@p! (I had always been paid more than an equivalent rank/TIS in QF. Guess that meant I was a safer pilot!!).
Mostly, though, I was keenly aware of an undercurrent of arrogance and ego amongst a lot of QF pilots.
I remember a good friend relating how, as an SO, he got a little high on an approach in a -400. With a huge stage sigh the Captain had, without a word, reached over and put the gear down. I've got around 7000hrs Multi Crew Command and currently sometimes fly with 300hr FOs, but I would NEVER THINK of doing such a thing. Make them aware they're high, suggest they "Dirty Up", make an "I" statement (I think the gear would be a good idea Jim), and if nothing was working, TAKE OVER. But to decide to change configuration and not bother to discuss it with the PF??!!
Worst thing was I related this to another QF friend (an FO), who’s opinion was "Fair enough, when I get a command, that's what I'd do."
It convinced me there was an endemic CRM problem in the company.
Why then, should we be surprised when a Captain reaches over and closes the throttles whilst an FO is half way through initiating a go-around.
Equally unsurprising that some QF pilots should leap upon the "We got in, therefore anyone who didn't is less safe" bandwagon when they feel threatened by a group from outside who can fly an aircraft just as effectively as they can. I'm sure within the cloistered halls of QF they can voice such ludicrous crud unchallenged...
But they won't get away with it here...
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Dear Kraptin,
If anyone is responsible for your destiny,Karma(?) (and I would include state of mind), it is YOU.
Your past actions and verbal vitriol have labled you a buck passer forever.
It is like a neon sign tatooed on your forhead.
If for some reason the ambient lighting washes out the sign, you will surely open your mouth( sooner rather than later) and trumpet the same message in your own unmistakable style.
Perhaps you should have taken the " offer " from QF in 1990; something els to think about while you were driving home thinking of what you had done to "friends and family" by signing up with Ansett.
One would have to start with the presumption that one has a brain to numb by sitting in the third seat before making the decision that you made.
I will let you think about that one but, I believe that many who read this will wonder if a little brain numbing wouldn't have been beneficial for you.
Hey, why don't you phone up QF now and ask for a little mind therapy.
For the others that read this:
I personally believe that there must be a problem within a company that does not face the obvious safety and standards problems exposed by the "skins game" at the Bangkok Golf club and then goes to the extent that they have to cover up those problems from the public.
Question is : How many of the QF crew and dept heads will also believe the PR.?
If anyone is responsible for your destiny,Karma(?) (and I would include state of mind), it is YOU.
Your past actions and verbal vitriol have labled you a buck passer forever.
It is like a neon sign tatooed on your forhead.
If for some reason the ambient lighting washes out the sign, you will surely open your mouth( sooner rather than later) and trumpet the same message in your own unmistakable style.
Perhaps you should have taken the " offer " from QF in 1990; something els to think about while you were driving home thinking of what you had done to "friends and family" by signing up with Ansett.
One would have to start with the presumption that one has a brain to numb by sitting in the third seat before making the decision that you made.
I will let you think about that one but, I believe that many who read this will wonder if a little brain numbing wouldn't have been beneficial for you.
Hey, why don't you phone up QF now and ask for a little mind therapy.
For the others that read this:
I personally believe that there must be a problem within a company that does not face the obvious safety and standards problems exposed by the "skins game" at the Bangkok Golf club and then goes to the extent that they have to cover up those problems from the public.
Question is : How many of the QF crew and dept heads will also believe the PR.?
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Wiz. Much of what you say I cannot and will not argue with. Indeed, I agree with what you say. However, you have twisted my argument, or you haven't understood what I have said.
I have not said this, and I will not agree with it. My point is this. Maybe, just maybe, the awfully flawed QF recruiting machine got it right on just one occasion. And that is they turned down an applicant. For good reason. He or she simply did not have the aptitude. And I hope you will agree that not everyone has the aptitude to be a pilot, let alone an airline pilot.
So this person, who was turned down by QF for good reason, goes and gets a job flying B1900's. Now they are in the left seat of a 717, or even A320, for the effectively same airline, just on half the pay. They have been previously told by QF that they are not suitable, now somehow they are?????
Please tell me that you can see the obvious contradiction here. Dont tell me that the QF recruiting system is incorrect on 100% of occasions. Dont see this through anti QF coloured glasses. Look through the forrest and see the tree that I'm pointing at.
Krap M? Methinks Ninja has you sorted out....
We got in, therefore anyone who didn't is less safe
So this person, who was turned down by QF for good reason, goes and gets a job flying B1900's. Now they are in the left seat of a 717, or even A320, for the effectively same airline, just on half the pay. They have been previously told by QF that they are not suitable, now somehow they are?????
Please tell me that you can see the obvious contradiction here. Dont tell me that the QF recruiting system is incorrect on 100% of occasions. Dont see this through anti QF coloured glasses. Look through the forrest and see the tree that I'm pointing at.
Krap M? Methinks Ninja has you sorted out....
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Wiz, the experience of your mate as an S/O, while undoubtedly true, is not 'typical' - at least not these days anyway. I speak from experience Wiz, not from opinion or hearsay.
There are 2000 pilots in QF, and it would be naive (and just plain wrong) to think that there are none who are 'CRM-challenged'. However most QF pilots, 747-400 Captains included, that I've flown with would be scathing in their opinion of the individual Captain you talk of. Was every Captain in AN a CRM legend? I think not. Are there no arrogant pilots in CX, DJ, BA? Are they all just in QF? Again, I think not!
On recruitment, no system is perfect & I'd be the last to say that QF's is (I know guys who missed out too, much to my surprise). But they have to assess you against some standard, whatever that may be. Heck, I know people (non airline types) who've been excellent candidates for a particular job but missed out because they just don't interview well! And just because someone flew for AN, or whoever, doesn't mean that you should be able to snap your fingers and walk into a job by default, nor would I expect anything less when the shoe is on the other foot and QF pilots apply for other airlines.
I'm not saying that it wasn't a giant stuff-up, but that's a pretty gross and mis-leading over-simplification of the whole incident.
There are 2000 pilots in QF, and it would be naive (and just plain wrong) to think that there are none who are 'CRM-challenged'. However most QF pilots, 747-400 Captains included, that I've flown with would be scathing in their opinion of the individual Captain you talk of. Was every Captain in AN a CRM legend? I think not. Are there no arrogant pilots in CX, DJ, BA? Are they all just in QF? Again, I think not!
On recruitment, no system is perfect & I'd be the last to say that QF's is (I know guys who missed out too, much to my surprise). But they have to assess you against some standard, whatever that may be. Heck, I know people (non airline types) who've been excellent candidates for a particular job but missed out because they just don't interview well! And just because someone flew for AN, or whoever, doesn't mean that you should be able to snap your fingers and walk into a job by default, nor would I expect anything less when the shoe is on the other foot and QF pilots apply for other airlines.
Why then, should we be surprised when a Captain reaches over and closes the throttles whilst an FO is half way through initiating a go-around.
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Is it true that the Captains at QF do a different CRM reval (i.e. not in the same classroom at the same time) to other tech and cabin crew? If so it would rather defeat the purpose of CRM ideology, would it not?
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Yorik,
What about the ones who do get through?
You surely are not trying to tell us that the QF selection machine is 100% correct and that people, who in your words "do'nt have the aptitude to be a pilot, let alone an airline pilot", cant get through the system.
Let me tell you they do! I also suspect that these would be the same people who fail to effectively participate in a multicrew environment.
You seem to assume that the level required for entry is constant, I suspect that this is not the case and that the bar is raised or lowered, depending on recruitment trends at the time.
Also the fact that someone has'nt passed the QF selection process, does'nt make them a pi$$ poor pilot, it just means that they may in QF's eyes be unsuitable for long haul! Or indeed one of a multitude of other factors that may be seen as undesirable.
ie: the ability to think for ones self!!
Cheers, HH.
PS: Dutch Roll, I just read your post and I must say, hear hear!
I think you succinctly got across the point I am trying to make, it surely does take all sorts to make a company!!
Cheers again, HH.
What about the ones who do get through?
You surely are not trying to tell us that the QF selection machine is 100% correct and that people, who in your words "do'nt have the aptitude to be a pilot, let alone an airline pilot", cant get through the system.
Let me tell you they do! I also suspect that these would be the same people who fail to effectively participate in a multicrew environment.
You seem to assume that the level required for entry is constant, I suspect that this is not the case and that the bar is raised or lowered, depending on recruitment trends at the time.
Also the fact that someone has'nt passed the QF selection process, does'nt make them a pi$$ poor pilot, it just means that they may in QF's eyes be unsuitable for long haul! Or indeed one of a multitude of other factors that may be seen as undesirable.
ie: the ability to think for ones self!!
Cheers, HH.
PS: Dutch Roll, I just read your post and I must say, hear hear!
I think you succinctly got across the point I am trying to make, it surely does take all sorts to make a company!!
Cheers again, HH.
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Well said Dutch and Howard. Good to see some reasonable debate here without screaming crazies like the Kraptin.
I'm not saying there aren't some weird guys who get through the Qf recruitment process. But if thats the case, then logic dictates that if you have been 'declined' then jeez, that doesn't auger well does it?
But that isn't my point. Let me say it again. I think there are some foibles in the QF recruitment system. But lets say they got it right just once. And with impulse, there is about one in one-fourty chance, that one of these guys hasn't the aptitude to be where he is.
I'm not saying there aren't some weird guys who get through the Qf recruitment process. But if thats the case, then logic dictates that if you have been 'declined' then jeez, that doesn't auger well does it?
But that isn't my point. Let me say it again. I think there are some foibles in the QF recruitment system. But lets say they got it right just once. And with impulse, there is about one in one-fourty chance, that one of these guys hasn't the aptitude to be where he is.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Thread Starter
This "screaming crazy" slipped through the QF recruitment process, Yorik - so that makes 2 of us....YOU and me...that foiled the system. 
Getting worried yet, Pete??!!!
The only difference though, is that I have managed to "fool" FIVE out of five majors to date, Yousillik Hunt.
Getting worried yet, Pete??!!!
The only difference though, is that I have managed to "fool" FIVE out of five majors to date, Yousillik Hunt.
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Kapitan M: Beri Jalan Kawan
I most definitely agree with everything you have said about the ego driven culture of the Rat airline. There is a wise Malay proverb that can explain it all and it goes "Bapa burik anak nya tentu rintik". This translates into English as : "If the father is spotted then the children will be speckled." Take that on board and it's easy to understand the present day mind set.
Regards,
Prince of Dzun
P.S. Perhaps the above is too hard for some of the non thinkers , this is a little easier. "Kecil anak kalau sudah besar onak." or " A child when born; grown up a thorn. "
I most definitely agree with everything you have said about the ego driven culture of the Rat airline. There is a wise Malay proverb that can explain it all and it goes "Bapa burik anak nya tentu rintik". This translates into English as : "If the father is spotted then the children will be speckled." Take that on board and it's easy to understand the present day mind set.
Regards,
Prince of Dzun
P.S. Perhaps the above is too hard for some of the non thinkers , this is a little easier. "Kecil anak kalau sudah besar onak." or " A child when born; grown up a thorn. "
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Thread Starter
Selamat, dan terima kaseh, Prince - an honour to have you here visiting this forum
Without a doubt, you experienced the best AND the worst in your day, of the seeds of today's crop.
Mind you, I believe there has been some culling (of the tall poppies) along the way.
Selamat jalan. Jampa lagi.
Without a doubt, you experienced the best AND the worst in your day, of the seeds of today's crop.
Mind you, I believe there has been some culling (of the tall poppies) along the way.
Selamat jalan. Jampa lagi.