Standards @ QF
Dutch,
By no means suggesting such attitudes are universal in, or restricted to QF. I know some great QF guys who would be a pleasure to work with, and yes I've worked with my share of "Difficult" personalities else where.
Reputations, however, whilst possibly unfair are not always without roots in the truth. Companies and organisations (not to mention countries!) do have engrained cultures and behavioral norms which can't help but effect those exposed to them.
I remember being shown an AIPA newsletter. Over a page was devoted to a rant by the then president (BP I believe) who was absolutley incensed...That a crewing officer had addressed him by his first name instead of Captain. The point was, in the context of QF, he was right. It is not just behavioral norm but stated and enforced policy at QF that everyone call the dude with four stripes "Captain." The president went on and on about appropriate respect etc., and by that he meant subservience. I ask you to quote any authoritive work on CRM that states this attitude is helpful to a good cockpit environment.
As to "That incident", the whole of this and other threads has been precipitated by a couple of (porportedly) QF pilots claiming "Another airline" is unsafe because of the pilots flying with it. As long as they do, I only think it fair that it be pointed out that QF has had it's fair share of scrapes, many attributable to the guys flying with you! I don't for a moment suggest that QF pilots are any less than thourough professtionals. I just don't think they (Or I!!) am in a position to go around labeling others, as if who we worked for automatically gave us a position of judgement.
By no means suggesting such attitudes are universal in, or restricted to QF. I know some great QF guys who would be a pleasure to work with, and yes I've worked with my share of "Difficult" personalities else where.
Reputations, however, whilst possibly unfair are not always without roots in the truth. Companies and organisations (not to mention countries!) do have engrained cultures and behavioral norms which can't help but effect those exposed to them.
I remember being shown an AIPA newsletter. Over a page was devoted to a rant by the then president (BP I believe) who was absolutley incensed...That a crewing officer had addressed him by his first name instead of Captain. The point was, in the context of QF, he was right. It is not just behavioral norm but stated and enforced policy at QF that everyone call the dude with four stripes "Captain." The president went on and on about appropriate respect etc., and by that he meant subservience. I ask you to quote any authoritive work on CRM that states this attitude is helpful to a good cockpit environment.
As to "That incident", the whole of this and other threads has been precipitated by a couple of (porportedly) QF pilots claiming "Another airline" is unsafe because of the pilots flying with it. As long as they do, I only think it fair that it be pointed out that QF has had it's fair share of scrapes, many attributable to the guys flying with you! I don't for a moment suggest that QF pilots are any less than thourough professtionals. I just don't think they (Or I!!) am in a position to go around labeling others, as if who we worked for automatically gave us a position of judgement.
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Wiz, couple of point with your post.
First, in so far as the culture of subservience. From my years in QF, that culture has changed (for the good) and is pretty much outdated. i'm not saying it doesnt exist any more, but it's a very small minority, and those culprits are about to retire.
Second, 'that incident' seems to be hashed over and over again when anyone wishes to 'attempt' to prove a point. No one has stated that QF is immune from accidents or it's fair share of scrapes. Nor is any other airline I might add. If you keep bringing that incident up you undermine your own agrument.
Third, I think that you are misinterpreting OUR position of judgement. A group of pilots have come along - for whatever reason they are there. They offer to fly your routes for 50% of the pay. Whether they have been rejected by QF or not, whether they are safe or not - they deserve to be judged because that is disgusting behaviour.
Kapt M? I don't believe for an instant that you were ever offered a position with QF. I believe that you are a stroker who is stroking a light speed.
First, in so far as the culture of subservience. From my years in QF, that culture has changed (for the good) and is pretty much outdated. i'm not saying it doesnt exist any more, but it's a very small minority, and those culprits are about to retire.
Second, 'that incident' seems to be hashed over and over again when anyone wishes to 'attempt' to prove a point. No one has stated that QF is immune from accidents or it's fair share of scrapes. Nor is any other airline I might add. If you keep bringing that incident up you undermine your own agrument.
Third, I think that you are misinterpreting OUR position of judgement. A group of pilots have come along - for whatever reason they are there. They offer to fly your routes for 50% of the pay. Whether they have been rejected by QF or not, whether they are safe or not - they deserve to be judged because that is disgusting behaviour.
Kapt M? I don't believe for an instant that you were ever offered a position with QF. I believe that you are a stroker who is stroking a light speed.
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Kap, why should I be worried? I have a good job, you on the other hand are still hung up over 89, and then you went to SQ and were one of the ones that ruined western reputations there as well.
If you had of used your so called intellect in 89, you wouldn't be where you are now, spending all your time on pprune trying to pick fights and spouting platitudes to people you don't even know.
Frankly speaking, those that bash QF, have either failed QF selection, or know that they lack the ability to get a job with them.
This is a useless thread started by QF bashers.
Oh and another thing Kap, thats a real shame that you view the role of S/O as demoralising. Most guys, and this includes military guys with more expertise than you could ever have, ex AN, GA, guys that have flown heavies overseas etc, see the light at the end of the tunnel and are prepared to learn as much as they can while S/O's therefore getting the most out of the position.
If you had of used your so called intellect in 89, you wouldn't be where you are now, spending all your time on pprune trying to pick fights and spouting platitudes to people you don't even know.
Frankly speaking, those that bash QF, have either failed QF selection, or know that they lack the ability to get a job with them.
This is a useless thread started by QF bashers.
Oh and another thing Kap, thats a real shame that you view the role of S/O as demoralising. Most guys, and this includes military guys with more expertise than you could ever have, ex AN, GA, guys that have flown heavies overseas etc, see the light at the end of the tunnel and are prepared to learn as much as they can while S/O's therefore getting the most out of the position.
Last edited by Pete Conrad; 5th Jul 2004 at 22:49.
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I wouldn't and couldn't quote any text that suggests calling someone 'Captain' is necessary for good CRM. I could count the number of Captains I've flown with who insist on that on one hand (and in fact, if you cut three fingers off I could still count them). But, that was 'their thing' and despite the fact I think it's a bit of a wank, I'll call them 'Captain', 'Sir', 'Lord Captain Almighty', or whatever they need to make them feel good. I can't say that it was particularly hard. After the initial intro, 98% of skippers I've flown with have unsurprisingly been happy to be called 'Bill' or 'Pete' or 'John' or whatever.
On the topic of QF pilots who say that another airline is unsafe just because some of the pilots flying it have been rejected by QF - I don't agree at all. I'd hope that any QF pilots holding that view are in a very small minority.
Kap and Prince, I think you underestimate the intelligence of the so-called 'children'. QF recruits no longer have the main claim to fame that they fought the Japanese in Malaya or flew Sea Furys off the Ark Royal. Times have changed and while the odd 'speckled child' will always slip through in any outfit (I'm sure your own organisations are no exception), they are becoming few and far between.
On the topic of QF pilots who say that another airline is unsafe just because some of the pilots flying it have been rejected by QF - I don't agree at all. I'd hope that any QF pilots holding that view are in a very small minority.
Kap and Prince, I think you underestimate the intelligence of the so-called 'children'. QF recruits no longer have the main claim to fame that they fought the Japanese in Malaya or flew Sea Furys off the Ark Royal. Times have changed and while the odd 'speckled child' will always slip through in any outfit (I'm sure your own organisations are no exception), they are becoming few and far between.
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Kaptin,Yorik and Pete.
How about you guys exchange email addresses and go for it in private or meet in the carpark and sort it out!
You are all as bad as each other.
All this "my dick is bigger" stuff is becoming very boring.
How about you guys exchange email addresses and go for it in private or meet in the carpark and sort it out!
You are all as bad as each other.
All this "my dick is bigger" stuff is becoming very boring.
Yorik,
THANK YOU!!!
It's been obvious from the start that your objection to Jet star was financial, not safety related.
In that, you have a much worthier case, and I have no problem with you (politely and reasonably) arguing your case on that score.
I will make a point- you (and by that I mean the QF pilot body) must shoulder some of the blame for this situation. If you had allowed the Impulse (not to mention Q-link and regional) pilots to join the AIPA, and then negotiated on their behalf, they would have got a better deal and you could have negotiated better rights into J*. As they were not AIPA members, the IPA had absolutely no reason to show loyalty to you. The IPA mandate was to negotiate the best interests of their members. Well, A320 ratings, promotions for their FOs and a much more secure future is a pretty good deal from their point of view.
You may not like it, but you CHOSE it to be none of your business.
They offer to fly your routes for 50% of the pay.
It's been obvious from the start that your objection to Jet star was financial, not safety related.
In that, you have a much worthier case, and I have no problem with you (politely and reasonably) arguing your case on that score.
I will make a point- you (and by that I mean the QF pilot body) must shoulder some of the blame for this situation. If you had allowed the Impulse (not to mention Q-link and regional) pilots to join the AIPA, and then negotiated on their behalf, they would have got a better deal and you could have negotiated better rights into J*. As they were not AIPA members, the IPA had absolutely no reason to show loyalty to you. The IPA mandate was to negotiate the best interests of their members. Well, A320 ratings, promotions for their FOs and a much more secure future is a pretty good deal from their point of view.
You may not like it, but you CHOSE it to be none of your business.
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Couple of points on your post there, Wiz.
First, when the IPA decided to undercut mainline, they drew a great deal of attention towards themselves, and much of this focussed on their level of safety. They will continue to do so through the introduction of the A320. If their level of safety is low then it could be directly attributed to the pay and selection criteria, thus opening a window of opportunity to adjust their pay level. I have made this very plain throughout my ranting about the organisation. BTW, have they failed the retest yet?
Second, I agree with your thoughts that AIPA is wholly responsible forr the shambollic situation that currently exists. These idiots were totally caught with their pants down and are now desparately attempting to plug the holes that have developed. The current incumbents are only partially responsible, but I have it on good authority that the previous president was specifically warned about what might happen, early enough to circumvent it! GD did nothing! (GD does not = Dixon BTW) IMHO, he should take 99% of the responsibility for AIPA.
But that still does not absolve the IPA for what they have done. Their lack of negotiating, their weak and submissive attitude (they would have sacked us otherwise! - bullsh1t), has affected us all in domestic airline flying.
This is quite contrary to their attitude on this forum, where they are full of bluff and bluster! If you guys are so self riteous - get out there and do something about your lot. Dont sit around and winge that AIPA didn't help you, poor darlings! Take some responsibility.
ACT like men and fix it yourselves. Before you drown everyone.
First, when the IPA decided to undercut mainline, they drew a great deal of attention towards themselves, and much of this focussed on their level of safety. They will continue to do so through the introduction of the A320. If their level of safety is low then it could be directly attributed to the pay and selection criteria, thus opening a window of opportunity to adjust their pay level. I have made this very plain throughout my ranting about the organisation. BTW, have they failed the retest yet?
Second, I agree with your thoughts that AIPA is wholly responsible forr the shambollic situation that currently exists. These idiots were totally caught with their pants down and are now desparately attempting to plug the holes that have developed. The current incumbents are only partially responsible, but I have it on good authority that the previous president was specifically warned about what might happen, early enough to circumvent it! GD did nothing! (GD does not = Dixon BTW) IMHO, he should take 99% of the responsibility for AIPA.
But that still does not absolve the IPA for what they have done. Their lack of negotiating, their weak and submissive attitude (they would have sacked us otherwise! - bullsh1t), has affected us all in domestic airline flying.
This is quite contrary to their attitude on this forum, where they are full of bluff and bluster! If you guys are so self riteous - get out there and do something about your lot. Dont sit around and winge that AIPA didn't help you, poor darlings! Take some responsibility.
ACT like men and fix it yourselves. Before you drown everyone.
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With men like ole glass jaws assdama running around believing, and I dont use that term lightly, I mean seriously believing, they are the only ones that fly jets Yorik, what do you expect?
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Kapitan M: Apa khabar kawan kawan
Actually I was just passing and noticed your name so I decided to say hello. I'm enroute (in my time machine) to our favourite forum
where I plan to fly the DC-3, chill some Anchor and organise a feast of mulligatawny soup, chicken curry with nasi brani, gula malacca, hot kopi susu and admire the perempuans chantek. I hear you saying " What price the mendacity of nostalgia !!!"
I feel a little sorry for your antagonists on this forum as they all seem to be the victims of suburbia and as such face a future of sameness. It's all a bit sad really and one can't but help thinking of frogs in a well.
Jumpa lagi, selamat jalan.
Regards,
Prince of Dzun
Actually I was just passing and noticed your name so I decided to say hello. I'm enroute (in my time machine) to our favourite forum
where I plan to fly the DC-3, chill some Anchor and organise a feast of mulligatawny soup, chicken curry with nasi brani, gula malacca, hot kopi susu and admire the perempuans chantek. I hear you saying " What price the mendacity of nostalgia !!!"
I feel a little sorry for your antagonists on this forum as they all seem to be the victims of suburbia and as such face a future of sameness. It's all a bit sad really and one can't but help thinking of frogs in a well.
Jumpa lagi, selamat jalan.
Regards,
Prince of Dzun
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You know nothing about me or my life, Prince. Don't even bother judging me. You are out of your league. Along with your cretin friend Kraaaaapin M. Go back to your overcrowded smelly little hovel.
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Aside from all the name calling there's a little good stuff on this thread. Yorik, you ought to quieten down a little and re-read it. Then, as I have just done, read the recent report (I think in the CASA or BASI magazine-I picked it up last time home on leave) on the 737-400 microburst incident at BNE. And ask yourself how in the world an airline crew who'd received all the training QF had to offer, could get themselves into that near-death situation.
If that had been an Asian carrier people like you Yorik, would have been screaming about it. But it was QF. Perhaps Kap M was right and his advice timely, we all need to be reminded of our own fallibility.
If that had been an Asian carrier people like you Yorik, would have been screaming about it. But it was QF. Perhaps Kap M was right and his advice timely, we all need to be reminded of our own fallibility.
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Training and Qantas is an oxymoron.
In Qantas the checking is very thorough...the "training" is virtually non existant. There is the odd check captain err training captain who may be able to spot your errors AND give some guidance to get you up to speed but most have no idea how to actually teach.
It's here's the books and sim session/check xxx is tomorrow 5am. Sink or swim.
In Qantas the checking is very thorough...the "training" is virtually non existant. There is the odd check captain err training captain who may be able to spot your errors AND give some guidance to get you up to speed but most have no idea how to actually teach.
It's here's the books and sim session/check xxx is tomorrow 5am. Sink or swim.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Thread Starter
Yorik (Yousillik) Hunt, your little temper tantrum and abuse of Prince of Dzun is, unfortunately - like the majority of your posts - uncalled for. The Prince has made no direct assault on you - indeed not on anyone. He has expressed his opinion as a result of his experience with QANTAS pilots, albeit probably not too recently.
To try to understand where he is coming from, you need only read stories of how the indiginous population of countries such as Malaya, Singapore, and India were treated by some of British and Australian imperialists during their time there.
That they were treated as second and third class citizens in THEIR own country, is something not quickly forgotten.
I had the unfortunate experience of flying with an old Chinese Captain in SQ who bore the psychological scars of his time as an F/O under dictatorial Poms and Aussies, and guess WHAT?
The very same traits that HE so hated about them, had become ingrained in him, and his subsequent treatment of Westerners!
Can you understand that the Prince of Dzun doesn't dislike them for WHO they are, but for WHAT they did THEN, and the carry over effect on future generations.
But remember the adage about being careful about whose toes you step on today.
Another glaringly obvious "issue" you have, Yk Hunt, is your inability to accept personal responsibility.
All of your problems have been caused by OTHERS - the IPG, J*, AIPA.
What are YOU PERSONALLY actually doing about accepting some of the blame that things are the way they are because YOU did NOTHING!!
As for referring to the Impulse and J* pilots as scabs, if you feel that you - as a QF pilot - have a grievance, then get on to AIPA to act on your behalf.
Or better still, notify QANTAS.
But you won't, I'll bet.
You'll simply respond with more vitriolic venom to try to cover your own inadequacies.
To try to understand where he is coming from, you need only read stories of how the indiginous population of countries such as Malaya, Singapore, and India were treated by some of British and Australian imperialists during their time there.
That they were treated as second and third class citizens in THEIR own country, is something not quickly forgotten.
I had the unfortunate experience of flying with an old Chinese Captain in SQ who bore the psychological scars of his time as an F/O under dictatorial Poms and Aussies, and guess WHAT?
The very same traits that HE so hated about them, had become ingrained in him, and his subsequent treatment of Westerners!
Can you understand that the Prince of Dzun doesn't dislike them for WHO they are, but for WHAT they did THEN, and the carry over effect on future generations.
But remember the adage about being careful about whose toes you step on today.
Another glaringly obvious "issue" you have, Yk Hunt, is your inability to accept personal responsibility.
All of your problems have been caused by OTHERS - the IPG, J*, AIPA.
What are YOU PERSONALLY actually doing about accepting some of the blame that things are the way they are because YOU did NOTHING!!
As for referring to the Impulse and J* pilots as scabs, if you feel that you - as a QF pilot - have a grievance, then get on to AIPA to act on your behalf.
Or better still, notify QANTAS.
But you won't, I'll bet.
You'll simply respond with more vitriolic venom to try to cover your own inadequacies.
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Kapitan M: Apa khabar kawan kawan
Terema kaseh untuk demi membantan. Banyak udang banyak garam, banyak orang banyak ragan. Fakta sedih.
Jumpa lagi, selamat jalan.
Regards,
Prince of Dzun
P.S. The translation for others is: Thank you for the support. There are many shrimps, many condiments, many men and many temperaments. This is a sad fact.
Terema kaseh untuk demi membantan. Banyak udang banyak garam, banyak orang banyak ragan. Fakta sedih.
Jumpa lagi, selamat jalan.
Regards,
Prince of Dzun
P.S. The translation for others is: Thank you for the support. There are many shrimps, many condiments, many men and many temperaments. This is a sad fact.
Nunc est bibendum
Sked, definately not true (from page 1!). All pilots and flight engineers do CRM at the same time in the same room. Currently the CRM recurrent training delivered to techies IS seperate to cabin crew due to the HF team wanting to target some 'techie specific' issues. From my understanding of the issue, this years CRM programme has attracted a large degree of interest from overseas airlines for covering ground that few airlines have yet to address as specifically as QF has. We'll see whether it bears fruit over the next couple of years.
On first glance it appears obvious however the detail is something to behold. Of course, I'm biased towards the programme (and those that know me know why) but I reckon it's a BIG step forward for QF CRM.
On first glance it appears obvious however the detail is something to behold. Of course, I'm biased towards the programme (and those that know me know why) but I reckon it's a BIG step forward for QF CRM.
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The Prince has made no direct assault on you
I feel a little sorry for your antagonists on this forum as they all seem to be the victims of suburbia and as such face a future of sameness. It's all a bit sad really and one can't but help thinking of frogs in a well.
Let me ask you, what personal responsibility should I bear, as you suggest, towards the IPG? AIPA and QANTAS are fully aware of how I and most Qantas pilots feel about the situation. Trouble is, QF management wont do anything about it, and AIPA cant.
And as for vitriolic venom? Well, I'll save some for you. Because you deserve it for your own current behaviour, let alone what you did in '89. You are an absolute fool who uses his own vitriolic venom to make up for his own inadequacies. Such incredible hypocracy.
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Prince of Dzun
Eloquently put.
P.S. The translation for others is: Thank you for the support. There are many shrimps, many condiments, many men and many temperaments. This is a sad fact.