Standards @ VB
Join Date: May 2003
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I have heard of ESIR's being issued for minor altitude deviations i.e. 200' - 300'. Can't imagine what would occur if radar picked up a sudden 6000' - 8000' drop in altitude.
An Macro says he "knows this for a fact" I dont see how you could unless you were one of the drivers. ????????????
An Macro says he "knows this for a fact" I dont see how you could unless you were one of the drivers. ????????????
The wheels of bureacracy turn pretty slowly no matter how much faith Skyway has in CASA - and he/she/it's probably the only one who has. So my guess is that it may be a while before we learn anything definitively of this story even if there is any truth to it.
Don't forget you guys - this is after all a RUMOUR network.
Don't forget you guys - this is after all a RUMOUR network.
Ah but if an aircraft is CLEARED for descent and then suddenly plummets ..who are ATC to question the descent profile of the skygods 
No transgression of clearance but still untidy.
Anyone got any REAL info on this or is the R in PPRune being used.
No transgression of clearance but still untidy.
Anyone got any REAL info on this or is the R in PPRune being used.
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Macrohard, your posts are valid and to the point.
It's quite obvious that to set the heading selector to a 10 degree bank angle was done for an obvious reason - to avoid some stupid fool from stalling in a turn.
This obviously is a knee-jerk reaction from the VB flight ops dept after an incident.
At the same time this is simply not Boeing procedure at all.
The fact that someone could let themselves get that slow and was flying either close to or above the maximum FMC altitude reaks of a lack of professionalism, due to them being unaware of the increase in stall speed and the obvious impending dangers.
Being near a performance limitation (ie: such as close to max altitude) means you treat the aircraft with kid gloves and should always be aware of stalling in turns or the effects of turbulence or rapid shifts in wind.
An increase in head wind could trigger the overspeed alert if close to the buffet boundary and the stick shaker warning go if close to the min manoeuvre speed and an increase of tailwind is recognised.
It is also quite obvious that VB has adopted this needless bank angle policy because some pilots at VB (not all) are apparently unaware of how an aircraft will perform when at or close to operational maximums (such as max alt etc).
Ralph the Bong - who says 10 degree angle of bank is more efficient?
If being vectored through say 90 degrees, the radius of turn is much greater and hence more track miles traversed, only to have more track miles to cover when the corrective vector is issued.
As for weather deviations, if far from the weather and you may want to give the pax a nice ride then fine - pilots discretion, but have to disagree about 10 degree bank being more "fuel efficient" especially when being vectored.
Basil Brush - its quite obvious that not all VB pilots are aware of the FTCM speed limitations above FL250.
Otherwise this incident would have never happened and the ridiculous and restrictive bank angle requirement of 10 degrees would never have been implemented.
Boeing have no problem with it remaining in "auto" mode as does every other airline in the world.
Why are Virgin Blue any different??
Its quite obvious that VB have adopted this angle of bank policy to cater for the lowest common deniminator in this case - one lame-brained pilot/crew that either stalled or came close to stalling a passenger jet needlessly.
If this is indeed true then VB should seriously look at the both their training system as well as the people they employ.
Once again the majority of VB pilots are quite experienced and fine, but there are some others that obviously drag the chain in a severe way.
It's quite obvious that to set the heading selector to a 10 degree bank angle was done for an obvious reason - to avoid some stupid fool from stalling in a turn.
This obviously is a knee-jerk reaction from the VB flight ops dept after an incident.
At the same time this is simply not Boeing procedure at all.
The fact that someone could let themselves get that slow and was flying either close to or above the maximum FMC altitude reaks of a lack of professionalism, due to them being unaware of the increase in stall speed and the obvious impending dangers.
Being near a performance limitation (ie: such as close to max altitude) means you treat the aircraft with kid gloves and should always be aware of stalling in turns or the effects of turbulence or rapid shifts in wind.
An increase in head wind could trigger the overspeed alert if close to the buffet boundary and the stick shaker warning go if close to the min manoeuvre speed and an increase of tailwind is recognised.
It is also quite obvious that VB has adopted this needless bank angle policy because some pilots at VB (not all) are apparently unaware of how an aircraft will perform when at or close to operational maximums (such as max alt etc).
Ralph the Bong - who says 10 degree angle of bank is more efficient?
If being vectored through say 90 degrees, the radius of turn is much greater and hence more track miles traversed, only to have more track miles to cover when the corrective vector is issued.
As for weather deviations, if far from the weather and you may want to give the pax a nice ride then fine - pilots discretion, but have to disagree about 10 degree bank being more "fuel efficient" especially when being vectored.
Basil Brush - its quite obvious that not all VB pilots are aware of the FTCM speed limitations above FL250.
Otherwise this incident would have never happened and the ridiculous and restrictive bank angle requirement of 10 degrees would never have been implemented.
Boeing have no problem with it remaining in "auto" mode as does every other airline in the world.
Why are Virgin Blue any different??
Its quite obvious that VB have adopted this angle of bank policy to cater for the lowest common deniminator in this case - one lame-brained pilot/crew that either stalled or came close to stalling a passenger jet needlessly.
If this is indeed true then VB should seriously look at the both their training system as well as the people they employ.
Once again the majority of VB pilots are quite experienced and fine, but there are some others that obviously drag the chain in a severe way.
I can assure you that no one is flying above FMC maximum.
A quick question...why did QF introduce speed restrictions on descent, particularly in the last part of the descent?
People manage their operations as they see fit, and react to events as they occur.
The introduction of a procedure doesn't mean that something has happened, in some cases it can be a preventative measure to stop something happenning in the future - I am not saying that this is the case here - I don't know - however not everything is a "knee jerk" reaction
ALL airlines in the world have events occur that in an ideal world shouldn't or wouldn't happen.
The problem is when management or the pilot body fail to accept that there are problems and fail to rectify the situation.
The failure to introduce a procedure in my opinion is worse than introducing one - as it shows a lack of recognition that problems/challenges exist in the existing situation.
Instead of bagging companies and the individuals within them - why not have a look and see if there is a lesson to be learnt.
A quick question...why did QF introduce speed restrictions on descent, particularly in the last part of the descent?
People manage their operations as they see fit, and react to events as they occur.
The introduction of a procedure doesn't mean that something has happened, in some cases it can be a preventative measure to stop something happenning in the future - I am not saying that this is the case here - I don't know - however not everything is a "knee jerk" reaction
ALL airlines in the world have events occur that in an ideal world shouldn't or wouldn't happen.
The problem is when management or the pilot body fail to accept that there are problems and fail to rectify the situation.
The failure to introduce a procedure in my opinion is worse than introducing one - as it shows a lack of recognition that problems/challenges exist in the existing situation.
Instead of bagging companies and the individuals within them - why not have a look and see if there is a lesson to be learnt.
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If I read this thread correctly a Virgin Blue 737 stalled at altitude whilst being radar vectored and their standards have come under fire.
To counter this the Standards department or Flight Operations have issued procedure that says whilst in the cruise a 10 degree angle of bank limit shall be set.
Now this really takes the cake boys and girls!!!!
As the previous post says this is countrary to Boeing normal procedures and is not a procedure used by my airline or anyone else from the UK/US or Asia Pacific I've spoken to.
To top things off some people come out in support of this procedure and lambast one individual for accurately criticising this procedure for the farce it really is.
The above quote is accurate and seems to predicate the fact that there are some VB pilots that need their hands to be held.
Whether this is because of low experience levels or just a plain lack of airmanship or poor training I just dont know, but if this incident is true then VB needs to be looked at seriously.
If their pilots knew the limitations and operational speed requirements for holding above 25000 feet then this silly little procedure wouldn't exist.
To counter this the Standards department or Flight Operations have issued procedure that says whilst in the cruise a 10 degree angle of bank limit shall be set.
Now this really takes the cake boys and girls!!!!
As the previous post says this is countrary to Boeing normal procedures and is not a procedure used by my airline or anyone else from the UK/US or Asia Pacific I've spoken to.
To top things off some people come out in support of this procedure and lambast one individual for accurately criticising this procedure for the farce it really is.
Boeing have no problem with it remaining in "auto" mode as does every other airline in the world.
Whether this is because of low experience levels or just a plain lack of airmanship or poor training I just dont know, but if this incident is true then VB needs to be looked at seriously.
If their pilots knew the limitations and operational speed requirements for holding above 25000 feet then this silly little procedure wouldn't exist.
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No wonder two pilots only recently resigned from VB to go work in Saudi Arabia.
Its obviously safer risking being killed or kidnapped and then decapitated by muslim extremists than flying with VB !!
Dont know about the stalling incident but agree the bank angle procedure is a standing joke and admission of lack of understanding by a few of its own pilots.
Lucky these lads werent flying for Emirates.
Those pilots flying the A340 out of Johannesburg were sacked.
Great way to endear pilots to a good CRM system with management support.
1013
Its obviously safer risking being killed or kidnapped and then decapitated by muslim extremists than flying with VB !!
Dont know about the stalling incident but agree the bank angle procedure is a standing joke and admission of lack of understanding by a few of its own pilots.
Lucky these lads werent flying for Emirates.
Those pilots flying the A340 out of Johannesburg were sacked.
Great way to endear pilots to a good CRM system with management support.
1013
Last edited by 1013; 27th Jun 2004 at 01:16.
1013. Rubbish. They weren't sacked; the boss "resigned".
340.
Please explain? What has the flight path angle got to do with minimum speed provided the speed is kept at the minimum by the A/T or the attentive crew?
340.
This margin of safety is easily eroded if the aircraft climbs,
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Captain Bloggs.
Check out the page on Rumours dealing with this topic with this quote:
"Confirmation i'm afraid.Both pilots involved in the overrun incident at J'burg have been sacked. Training manager has stepped down and will resume duties as training Capt.( Boss's son in law i gather).
Nice to know that the guys out there have the full support of their managers and the company doesn't believe in using scapegoats"
So you agree with this type of behaviour do we Bloggs?
Shall we say the postings on that thread have been less than flattering when it comes to Emirates way of dealing with things.
As some bright spark suggested, the topic headline of "heads roll in Emirates" may have been a tad touchy seeing the current state of affairs in the middle east.
Check out the page on Rumours dealing with this topic with this quote:
"Confirmation i'm afraid.Both pilots involved in the overrun incident at J'burg have been sacked. Training manager has stepped down and will resume duties as training Capt.( Boss's son in law i gather).
Nice to know that the guys out there have the full support of their managers and the company doesn't believe in using scapegoats"
So you agree with this type of behaviour do we Bloggs?
Shall we say the postings on that thread have been less than flattering when it comes to Emirates way of dealing with things.
As some bright spark suggested, the topic headline of "heads roll in Emirates" may have been a tad touchy seeing the current state of affairs in the middle east.
1013,
Accepted (from a rumour board). My information came from Flight Intl of last week. No mention was made of the crew being sacked. It WAS mentioned that the Sen VP Flt Ops, recently resigned, "the airline not revealing the reason or his departure".
Without knowing the previous track record of the crew, and the PIC is command, it is impossible for you, or I, to cast judgement on a company decision to "sack" or use as a "scapegoat", a crew. After all, some things were never meant to fly, and just because they made it thru their initial check-to-line does not give them a god-given right to stay in their seat. Management must always have the right (and has a duty of care to the public) to remove, temporarily, or permanently, a crew member who doesn't make or maintain the grade.
Obviously, the decision that has to be made is whether the incident (and this VB one) was the result of a systemic problem, or just as case of incompetence.
Accepted (from a rumour board). My information came from Flight Intl of last week. No mention was made of the crew being sacked. It WAS mentioned that the Sen VP Flt Ops, recently resigned, "the airline not revealing the reason or his departure".
So you agree with this type of behaviour do we Bloggs?
Obviously, the decision that has to be made is whether the incident (and this VB one) was the result of a systemic problem, or just as case of incompetence.
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When manoeuvring at high altitudes with LNAV de-activated, flight crew should:
1. Fly at least 10kt above the lower amber band if sufficient speed margin to the upper band is available.
2. If speed drops below the amber band limit, immediately increase speed by carrying out one of the following:
(a) Reduce angle of bank,
(b) Increase thrust (up to Max Continuous Thrust - MCT), as required, or,
(c) Descend.
3. Limit bank angle to no more than 10 degrees for manual steering in cruise. The MCP bank angle selector should be set to 10 degrees from TOC to TOD to preclude higher bank angles during cruise manoeuvring in HDG SEL mode.
1. Fly at least 10kt above the lower amber band if sufficient speed margin to the upper band is available.
2. If speed drops below the amber band limit, immediately increase speed by carrying out one of the following:
(a) Reduce angle of bank,
(b) Increase thrust (up to Max Continuous Thrust - MCT), as required, or,
(c) Descend.
3. Limit bank angle to no more than 10 degrees for manual steering in cruise. The MCP bank angle selector should be set to 10 degrees from TOC to TOD to preclude higher bank angles during cruise manoeuvring in HDG SEL mode.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
From Tunguska:-
Well you obviously have a small circle of friends, Tunguska - this is SOP's for a large Asian carrier for which I have worked. (But then again, you're probably similarly unaware of the recommended 15 degree bank angle limit, following an engine failure at low speeds! 
)
I realise, Skyway, that intelligence isn't linked to spelling ability - as a matter of fact, my Border Collies couldn't even spell DOG. But your little dummy spit, where you lambast all pilots senior to you, by stating:-
loses quite a lot of its impact as we read on and find that our "would-be-if-he-could-be" future astronaut trips over himself with simplistic spelling and punctuation errors, such as "Its called, I have been here to long.....you are an incosiderant (*&^$. That has got to be the lowest and yet unbacked statement on this network......THE POOR BLOKES FAMILY"
Sonny, you need to complete Grade iii English, if you even HOPE to get a look in. THEN the world might be a better place!
BTW, I'm looking forward to my retirement - one day - but I hope the standard of jocks in the front seats is several notches above Skyway's, for my kids' sake!!
To counter this the Standards department or Flight Operations have issued procedure that says whilst in the cruise a 10 degree angle of bank limit shall be set.
Now this really takes the cake boys and girls!!!!
As the previous post says this is countrary to Boeing normal procedures and is not a procedure used by my airline or anyone else from the UK/US or Asia Pacific I've spoken to.
Now this really takes the cake boys and girls!!!!
As the previous post says this is countrary to Boeing normal procedures and is not a procedure used by my airline or anyone else from the UK/US or Asia Pacific I've spoken to.
)I realise, Skyway, that intelligence isn't linked to spelling ability - as a matter of fact, my Border Collies couldn't even spell DOG. But your little dummy spit, where you lambast all pilots senior to you, by stating:-
...give some of the younger more intelligent pilots a go...
Sonny, you need to complete Grade iii English, if you even HOPE to get a look in. THEN the world might be a better place!
BTW, I'm looking forward to my retirement - one day - but I hope the standard of jocks in the front seats is several notches above Skyway's, for my kids' sake!!
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Kaptin M
Thanks for your input but I am not talking about the engine failure scenario here of which I'm quite conversant.
The VB procedure is to select the heading bank selector to 10 degrees when in the cruise.
This is not a normal Boeing procedure as far as I can see or have been told by mates working for Southwest, United, China Airlines, BA, Qantas, Air NZ or numerous other charter companies around Europe operating B737s.
The bank angle limit following an engine failure at low airspeeds is a different kettle of fish altogether but thanks for reminding me of the fact.
I believe also that use of the bank angle limiter after say a V1 cut is optional until the aircraft is established on the desired heading and at the adequate manoeuvre speed above V2, as long as the 15 bank angle is maintained.
Skyway.Take heed and advice from Macrohard and Kaptin M lad.
Looking back through your postings you were enquiring last year about whether VB had a second officer cadet type scheme.
You will need the ability to spell and basic english skills to get through life in even its simplest forms.
I too hope the pilots of the future are a cut above yourself Skyway.
God help us if they're not and good luck with those ATPL subjects also.!
But then again, you're probably similarly unaware of the recommended 15 degree bank angle limit, following an engine failure at low speeds
The VB procedure is to select the heading bank selector to 10 degrees when in the cruise.
This is not a normal Boeing procedure as far as I can see or have been told by mates working for Southwest, United, China Airlines, BA, Qantas, Air NZ or numerous other charter companies around Europe operating B737s.
The bank angle limit following an engine failure at low airspeeds is a different kettle of fish altogether but thanks for reminding me of the fact.
I believe also that use of the bank angle limiter after say a V1 cut is optional until the aircraft is established on the desired heading and at the adequate manoeuvre speed above V2, as long as the 15 bank angle is maintained.
Skyway.Take heed and advice from Macrohard and Kaptin M lad.
Looking back through your postings you were enquiring last year about whether VB had a second officer cadet type scheme.
You will need the ability to spell and basic english skills to get through life in even its simplest forms.
I too hope the pilots of the future are a cut above yourself Skyway.
God help us if they're not and good luck with those ATPL subjects also.!
Last edited by Tunguska; 28th Jun 2004 at 01:20.
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Flare Armed, I cannot find a Boeing Technical Bulletin/Notice with reference to this subject.
Surely it would also affect not only the B737 but also aircraft with similar automation systems such as the B757/B767/B747-400?
Also cannot find any revised Technical Bulletin to comply with any possible AD applicable.
Do you have a reference with an applicable Boeing website so that it can be accessed??
Surely it would also affect not only the B737 but also aircraft with similar automation systems such as the B757/B767/B747-400?
Also cannot find any revised Technical Bulletin to comply with any possible AD applicable.
Do you have a reference with an applicable Boeing website so that it can be accessed??
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I have just found out from a colleague of mine that someone has used my password to access these posts. Unfortunatly every time I log off my password remains, this has allowed one of my so called fellow workers to post some, well, rather interesting posts.
I sincerly apologise to all and asure you that I have changed my password to prevent further problems.
Interesting to note the attacks on my previous posts though!
I sincerly apologise to all and asure you that I have changed my password to prevent further problems.
Interesting to note the attacks on my previous posts though!
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TIMMEEEE,
The recommendation was made as part of a presentation at the May 2004, Boeing Flight Operations Symposium in Seattle. The presenter was Catherine Davis of Boeing Flight Operations Engineering and it was in the B737 'breakout' session.
Basically, with LNAV engaged, there is bank angle protection when turning at high altitude that ensures the drag does not exceed thrust capability. In HDG SEL, there is no protection and it is possible that the drag at angles of bank above 10 or 15 degrees may exceed the thrust available and cause speed reduction into the amber band.
As a result, it was recommended that the bank angle selector be placed in 10 or 15 at TOPC and left there until TOPD.
Virgin Blue management pilots were in attendance and they have obviously decided to implement Catherine's advice to increase safety.
Given time it will probably be published in the FCTM.
The recommendation was made as part of a presentation at the May 2004, Boeing Flight Operations Symposium in Seattle. The presenter was Catherine Davis of Boeing Flight Operations Engineering and it was in the B737 'breakout' session.
Basically, with LNAV engaged, there is bank angle protection when turning at high altitude that ensures the drag does not exceed thrust capability. In HDG SEL, there is no protection and it is possible that the drag at angles of bank above 10 or 15 degrees may exceed the thrust available and cause speed reduction into the amber band.
As a result, it was recommended that the bank angle selector be placed in 10 or 15 at TOPC and left there until TOPD.
Virgin Blue management pilots were in attendance and they have obviously decided to implement Catherine's advice to increase safety.
Given time it will probably be published in the FCTM.