Budget flights turn expensive
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Brisbane, Aust
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ur2 and SydGirl and KaptainM are correct but here's the rub. If you miss your bus or train there will be another one in 10/15/30 minutes time and the ticket you purchased will allow you carriage on that bus or train.
That is because the bus and train are classed as "common carriers" and you'll find that airlines (in Aust at least) are specifically exempted from being "common carriers".
A question for the more knowledgeable:
You want to fly from Hobart to Proserpine so you ring J* and they make the following bookings for you:
Hobart to Brisbane J*82 departing 0600 arriving 0840
Brisbane to Proserpine J*756 departing 0955 arriving 1130
You arrive a Hobart airport at 0505 happy that you will check your bag, get your boarding pass and still have time for a coffee.
Then comes the announcement "J* is pleased to announce that their Boeing 717-200 flight 82 for Brisbane is delayed due to <insert common reason fed to the masses here>, we have techs working on the problem and hope to have it solved soon".
Where do you stand with missing your connection to Proserpine because of J* being late out of Hobart or even cancelling that flight.
Just a thunk.
That is because the bus and train are classed as "common carriers" and you'll find that airlines (in Aust at least) are specifically exempted from being "common carriers".
A question for the more knowledgeable:
You want to fly from Hobart to Proserpine so you ring J* and they make the following bookings for you:
Hobart to Brisbane J*82 departing 0600 arriving 0840
Brisbane to Proserpine J*756 departing 0955 arriving 1130
You arrive a Hobart airport at 0505 happy that you will check your bag, get your boarding pass and still have time for a coffee.
Then comes the announcement "J* is pleased to announce that their Boeing 717-200 flight 82 for Brisbane is delayed due to <insert common reason fed to the masses here>, we have techs working on the problem and hope to have it solved soon".
Where do you stand with missing your connection to Proserpine because of J* being late out of Hobart or even cancelling that flight.
Just a thunk.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
...and their bags were left behind because no-one did the checks, tagged the bag & sent it down the belt....
The required number of baggage tags are issued, via the "hole in the wall", along with the boarding pass (where the pax is also able to nominate exactly which seat he wants - and gets, if still available). Said pax then tags bag(s) and places them on a belt, which weighs them and transports them "down below" via an x-ray security scanner.
Dunno what happens if they are found to be suspect - I guess s/he would get a call over the airport public address system, to report somewhere to open the offending merchandise.
So be careful p!ssing the pax off, girls and boys - the more complaints you stir up, the more ammunition you're giving your employers to use against YOU.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Brisbane
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Missed connections
welcome_stranger,
My understanding of J* policy regarding connections is that if you miss the connection, tough luck. They have quite clearly stated that they are a point-to-point carrier and that they do not provide connections for other J* flights. As for the recent "looking after" of J* passengers that missed their flight because a Q flight was delayed, I think they were trying to avoid more bad press over the cultural changes they are beinging into effect. If it had been Vigin, they wouldn't have cared (and nor should they).
All I can say is I wouldn't be booking two or more consecutive sectors with J*. You pay the cheap fare - don't expect the world.
My understanding of J* policy regarding connections is that if you miss the connection, tough luck. They have quite clearly stated that they are a point-to-point carrier and that they do not provide connections for other J* flights. As for the recent "looking after" of J* passengers that missed their flight because a Q flight was delayed, I think they were trying to avoid more bad press over the cultural changes they are beinging into effect. If it had been Vigin, they wouldn't have cared (and nor should they).
All I can say is I wouldn't be booking two or more consecutive sectors with J*. You pay the cheap fare - don't expect the world.
Evertonian
No, not at all Kaptin M. It's the way it is heading...
How do you, as Crew, feel about this automation & the inherent security issues?
How do you, as Crew, feel about this automation & the inherent security issues?
I believe that Jet* are probably going to use the number of lost pax, and ADVERSE PRESS against you, down the track, to replace you.
Join Date: Nov 2000
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welcome_stranger,
this excerpt from the J* conditions of carraige should clear up your query:
9. SCHEDULES, LATE OR CANCELLED FLIGHTS
9.1 Schedules
(a) The flight time shown on your Itinerary and Tax Invoice may change between the date of issue and your date of travel. Jetstar does not guarantee the flight times and they do not form part of your contract of carriage with us.
(b) Before we accept your booking, we or our Authorised Agents will tell you the scheduled departure time of your flight and it will be shown on your Itinerary and Tax Invoice. We may need to change the scheduled departure time of your flight after your Itinerary and Tax Invoice has been issued. If you give us or our Authorised Agents contact information, we or they will try to let you know about any changes.
(c) If, after you pay for your Booking, we make a significant change to the scheduled departure time of your flight or the flight is late or cancelled (except where this is due to bad weather):
and you find this change unacceptable; and
we or our Authorised Agents cannot book you on another flight which you are prepared to accept;
we will give you a fare refund.
9.2 Late or cancelled flights (due to bad weather)
Where bad weather is responsible for the delayed or cancelled flight, whether you have checked in or not, Jetstar will try to assist you to get to your destination, but will not be responsible for paying any costs or expenses you may incur as a result of the delay or cancellation.
9.3 No flight connections provided
Jetstar is a low cost 'point-to-point' airline which does not provide flight connections or baggage transfer. It is the Passenger's responsibility when making bookings to allow time for Baggage collection and recheck. We recommend at least 90 minutes between domestic flights, and at least 150 minutes between an international and a domestic flight. While Jetstar will try to carry you and your Baggage in accordance with the date and time of the flights specified, it does not guarantee it will be able to do so. Schedules may change without notice for a range of reasons including but not limited to bad weather, air traffic control delays, strikes, technical disruptions and late inbound aircraft. To the extent permitted by law, Jetstar excludes liability for any costs, expenses, losses or damages incurred by the Passenger as a result of failure to meet a schedule.
this excerpt from the J* conditions of carraige should clear up your query:
9. SCHEDULES, LATE OR CANCELLED FLIGHTS
9.1 Schedules
(a) The flight time shown on your Itinerary and Tax Invoice may change between the date of issue and your date of travel. Jetstar does not guarantee the flight times and they do not form part of your contract of carriage with us.
(b) Before we accept your booking, we or our Authorised Agents will tell you the scheduled departure time of your flight and it will be shown on your Itinerary and Tax Invoice. We may need to change the scheduled departure time of your flight after your Itinerary and Tax Invoice has been issued. If you give us or our Authorised Agents contact information, we or they will try to let you know about any changes.
(c) If, after you pay for your Booking, we make a significant change to the scheduled departure time of your flight or the flight is late or cancelled (except where this is due to bad weather):
and you find this change unacceptable; and
we or our Authorised Agents cannot book you on another flight which you are prepared to accept;
we will give you a fare refund.
9.2 Late or cancelled flights (due to bad weather)
Where bad weather is responsible for the delayed or cancelled flight, whether you have checked in or not, Jetstar will try to assist you to get to your destination, but will not be responsible for paying any costs or expenses you may incur as a result of the delay or cancellation.
9.3 No flight connections provided
Jetstar is a low cost 'point-to-point' airline which does not provide flight connections or baggage transfer. It is the Passenger's responsibility when making bookings to allow time for Baggage collection and recheck. We recommend at least 90 minutes between domestic flights, and at least 150 minutes between an international and a domestic flight. While Jetstar will try to carry you and your Baggage in accordance with the date and time of the flights specified, it does not guarantee it will be able to do so. Schedules may change without notice for a range of reasons including but not limited to bad weather, air traffic control delays, strikes, technical disruptions and late inbound aircraft. To the extent permitted by law, Jetstar excludes liability for any costs, expenses, losses or damages incurred by the Passenger as a result of failure to meet a schedule.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
It's the way the industry is headed, Buster - LESS "front line" staff, MORE office staff. Something of an irony, isn't it, when staff who are employed to assist the customers (the people who provide the revenue) are replaced by machines, but more "assistants to the managers of B.S Castle" are employed!
IMHO, the pioneers of Oz aviation - Sir Reginald Ansett, W. Hudson Fysh, and later Max Hazelton - demonstrated how to SUCCESSFULLY operate airline businesses.
Today's airlines are mainly, overly top-heavy with non revenue-producing office staff.
From the security aspect, Buster, that "first line" of defence has been removd, with automated check-in, however I wonder how effective - in the main - they really were?
And worldwide, the security "goons" - who have achieved a much higher profile since Sept 11 - get a continual bollocking here, and elsewhere, for being "over zealous" with their checks.
However, they may well be the ONLY check in most countries before much longer!
Personally, I don't like to see people being displaced - did I mention that ALL of the pre-Flight Planning and briefing here, is now via a computer...it is set up such that we (pilots) NEVER need see a human, from sign-on to sign-off!
ALL modifications (if any) to the flight plan, eg. change to fuel, FL, or routing is done via a computer - however it's the way we're headed, and the majority apparently WANT it this way.
IMHO, the pioneers of Oz aviation - Sir Reginald Ansett, W. Hudson Fysh, and later Max Hazelton - demonstrated how to SUCCESSFULLY operate airline businesses.
Today's airlines are mainly, overly top-heavy with non revenue-producing office staff.
From the security aspect, Buster, that "first line" of defence has been removd, with automated check-in, however I wonder how effective - in the main - they really were?
And worldwide, the security "goons" - who have achieved a much higher profile since Sept 11 - get a continual bollocking here, and elsewhere, for being "over zealous" with their checks.
However, they may well be the ONLY check in most countries before much longer!
Personally, I don't like to see people being displaced - did I mention that ALL of the pre-Flight Planning and briefing here, is now via a computer...it is set up such that we (pilots) NEVER need see a human, from sign-on to sign-off!
ALL modifications (if any) to the flight plan, eg. change to fuel, FL, or routing is done via a computer - however it's the way we're headed, and the majority apparently WANT it this way.
Evertonian
Well, Kaptin, when I was first doing loadsheets, we required a "certain" amount of Flight planning, WX & NOTAM knowledge. By no means were we expected to quote the documents to the crews, but enough knowledge to be able to detect errors in either the documents themselves, alternates etc, etc. When I was last doing loadsheets, not too long ago now, the WX & NOTAMS were automatically spat out from the FAX & I got the CFP off the internet! All I really needed to know & were expected to know was what key to hit for printing & how to put more paper in the machine. When I raised the question of why my crew needed wind charts for Australia & the entire SE Asia region, I was told it was part of the package & too hard to change!
Automation is a fine tool, but when the system sh!ts itself & runs home to mamma, who's going to go upstairs & do a manual check-in?
You are right, also, in the future make up of any airline. It will encompass about a dozen staff, all wearing suits, and not one of them would be able to tell the difference between AvGas and bunny farts!
Automation is a fine tool, but when the system sh!ts itself & runs home to mamma, who's going to go upstairs & do a manual check-in?
You are right, also, in the future make up of any airline. It will encompass about a dozen staff, all wearing suits, and not one of them would be able to tell the difference between AvGas and bunny farts!
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Hey Buster
No they are no changing there rules here.
From the start we at QF were told that if QF or JQ have a disruption then we will do all to accomodate pax, thats for JQ missing QF and QF missing JQ.
No they are no changing there rules here.
From the start we at QF were told that if QF or JQ have a disruption then we will do all to accomodate pax, thats for JQ missing QF and QF missing JQ.
Join Date: Mar 2002
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welcome stranger -
You cannot book HBA-PPP as a connection. You would make two totally different bookings. It would be no different to booking HBA-MEL on QF, MEL-BNE on DJ and then BNE-PPP on JQ. You actively must make two separate bookings - thus absolving JQ of any liability. They did not sell you travel from HBA-PPP.
If you book MEL-PPP on the QF site. It directs you to two different booking engines but on the same screen. It tells you that you make two payments. But QF offers you the MEL-PPP city pair in its initial booking engine. Hence the responsibility to get you there somehow.
I have a question. If you flight has a scheduled departure of 0830 (meaning a check in cut off of 0800) and the inbound is delayed and the revised departure time is 0900. If you show up at 0810 can you still check in? I think it would be fair to say you should as the airline is late - needs to work both ways. In this case anyway.
The conditions say check in closes 30 minutes prior to departure. It doesn't say 'scheduled' departure. It doesn't say 'actual' though either. Dunno.
SydGirl -
About planes waiting for no one... One morning in NTL they would not close check in despite it being -10 before departure with all checked pax onboard. The supervisor at check in wanted to wait for a no show Chairman's Lounge customer who rang said he was two minutes away. Anyway at -5 the supervisor rang and the guy again said "Two minutes" and hung up. This caused an almost brawl amongst the staff at NTL about holding for this guy (a politician). Another check in agent repeatedly tried calling this loser to get no answer. At departure time the man swans up to check in, then buys a newspaper. Eventually he made it to the aircraft then abused me for the lack of "the big seats" (some a/c had J seats sold as Y) and no coat cupboard then he ordered the Purser to close the door. We couldn't until Load Control sent through the paperwork. They got busy and it took another five or so mins. Anyway we ended up departing over 10 minutes late because of this guy. And it was he who still kicked up the most stink!
I praise JQ for sticking to their guns. Yeh they could do without the bad publicity. But at the end of the day it is saving them stacks of money using this procedure.
Until DJ has a cost base lower than JQ's I really don't see them being a big winner. (Won't go into it but DJ's yield management where connecting flights are concerned is just a joke! You can fly MEL-SYD-CNS for $99 but if you want to fly just MEL-SYD on the same sector it's $235!!!. Really clever.)
You cannot book HBA-PPP as a connection. You would make two totally different bookings. It would be no different to booking HBA-MEL on QF, MEL-BNE on DJ and then BNE-PPP on JQ. You actively must make two separate bookings - thus absolving JQ of any liability. They did not sell you travel from HBA-PPP.
If you book MEL-PPP on the QF site. It directs you to two different booking engines but on the same screen. It tells you that you make two payments. But QF offers you the MEL-PPP city pair in its initial booking engine. Hence the responsibility to get you there somehow.
I have a question. If you flight has a scheduled departure of 0830 (meaning a check in cut off of 0800) and the inbound is delayed and the revised departure time is 0900. If you show up at 0810 can you still check in? I think it would be fair to say you should as the airline is late - needs to work both ways. In this case anyway.
The conditions say check in closes 30 minutes prior to departure. It doesn't say 'scheduled' departure. It doesn't say 'actual' though either. Dunno.
SydGirl -
About planes waiting for no one... One morning in NTL they would not close check in despite it being -10 before departure with all checked pax onboard. The supervisor at check in wanted to wait for a no show Chairman's Lounge customer who rang said he was two minutes away. Anyway at -5 the supervisor rang and the guy again said "Two minutes" and hung up. This caused an almost brawl amongst the staff at NTL about holding for this guy (a politician). Another check in agent repeatedly tried calling this loser to get no answer. At departure time the man swans up to check in, then buys a newspaper. Eventually he made it to the aircraft then abused me for the lack of "the big seats" (some a/c had J seats sold as Y) and no coat cupboard then he ordered the Purser to close the door. We couldn't until Load Control sent through the paperwork. They got busy and it took another five or so mins. Anyway we ended up departing over 10 minutes late because of this guy. And it was he who still kicked up the most stink!
I praise JQ for sticking to their guns. Yeh they could do without the bad publicity. But at the end of the day it is saving them stacks of money using this procedure.
Until DJ has a cost base lower than JQ's I really don't see them being a big winner. (Won't go into it but DJ's yield management where connecting flights are concerned is just a joke! You can fly MEL-SYD-CNS for $99 but if you want to fly just MEL-SYD on the same sector it's $235!!!. Really clever.)
