Jetstar cabin cleaning?
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Jetstar cabin cleaning?
I'll be accused by some of trying to start a wind up but this is a genuine query.
Is it a fact that the Jetstar pilots are cleaning the cabin with the cabin crew during the 25 minute turnarounds?
I ask the question but truthfully know that at least occasionally it has happened since Jetstar started. Is it an expectation?
Now, I know this has been accepted practice at smaller 'airlines' over the years but this precedent would be worrying in my view.
Firstly we are talking about a BIG aeroplane, and 25 mins from on blox to off blox is not very long
Additionally the jetstar pilots also have to;
1. checklists, both shutdown and preflight
2. a complete exterior inspection as per the ops manual, as jetstar dont use ground lames for this function (except 1st flight of the day, i think)
3. Preflight procedures, including performance, wx analysis, mel interpretation and application
4.Generally preparing mentally (building situational awareness)for the next sector
I'm sure theres an abundant list of other things they could be doing but these I thought seemed to be a minimum.
Thoughts or otherwise?
Is it a fact that the Jetstar pilots are cleaning the cabin with the cabin crew during the 25 minute turnarounds?
I ask the question but truthfully know that at least occasionally it has happened since Jetstar started. Is it an expectation?
Now, I know this has been accepted practice at smaller 'airlines' over the years but this precedent would be worrying in my view.
Firstly we are talking about a BIG aeroplane, and 25 mins from on blox to off blox is not very long
Additionally the jetstar pilots also have to;
1. checklists, both shutdown and preflight
2. a complete exterior inspection as per the ops manual, as jetstar dont use ground lames for this function (except 1st flight of the day, i think)
3. Preflight procedures, including performance, wx analysis, mel interpretation and application
4.Generally preparing mentally (building situational awareness)for the next sector
I'm sure theres an abundant list of other things they could be doing but these I thought seemed to be a minimum.
Thoughts or otherwise?
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The term is CRM.
There is no req't by tech crew to do this. If you can not achieve the above turn around in 25 min you should not be doing the job. The rest of the world seems to manage 25 min turn arounds.
There is no req't by tech crew to do this. If you can not achieve the above turn around in 25 min you should not be doing the job. The rest of the world seems to manage 25 min turn arounds.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
In the early days of the "LCC" which started up here half a dozen years ago, some of the pilots were helping the F/A's do the cleaning on turnarounds - even the engineers were helping out when loads were chockers and turn around times short (the blocked turnaround was also 25 minutes 
).
Not surprisingly, "Notices to pilots" were issued stating that an external check had to be done on every sector.
Later other notices came out, reminding pilots not to (i)exceed the maximum taxi speeds, (ii)to approach parking spots at a "dead slow" taxi speed, (iii)that it was sometimes preferable to take a longer runway for take-off vs the closest one, to stop more engines from being cooked!!
Are we seeing a trend here, due to UNREALISTIC TURN AROUND TIMES being scheduled by suits with little previous operational experience?
SAFETY might be compromised due to pressure the crew feel is being put on them.
The final straw broke when a pilot had his finger(s) either pricked by a used needle, or cut by a razor blade, left in the seatback pocket.
Need I say, turn around times are now back to sensible levels.
But you can't tell new management - they have plenty of money to burn (because these bright ideas end up COSTING $$$'s) - except on employing proper staff numbers.
You simply cannot expect MINIMUM cabin crew to do their job as F/A's and cleaners, when you are running MAXIMUM loads.
).Not surprisingly, "Notices to pilots" were issued stating that an external check had to be done on every sector.
Later other notices came out, reminding pilots not to (i)exceed the maximum taxi speeds, (ii)to approach parking spots at a "dead slow" taxi speed, (iii)that it was sometimes preferable to take a longer runway for take-off vs the closest one, to stop more engines from being cooked!!
Are we seeing a trend here, due to UNREALISTIC TURN AROUND TIMES being scheduled by suits with little previous operational experience?
SAFETY might be compromised due to pressure the crew feel is being put on them.
The final straw broke when a pilot had his finger(s) either pricked by a used needle, or cut by a razor blade, left in the seatback pocket.
Need I say, turn around times are now back to sensible levels.
But you can't tell new management - they have plenty of money to burn (because these bright ideas end up COSTING $$$'s) - except on employing proper staff numbers.
You simply cannot expect MINIMUM cabin crew to do their job as F/A's and cleaners, when you are running MAXIMUM loads.
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Tech Crew have helped us but I have only done two 25 minute turns since JQ started. Most of my transits have been 35 minutes - hence they have the time to help.
If you look at the schedule more than half the transits are longer than 25 minutes. The whole thing takes four of us about two mins. Most of the time their offer to help comes too late! Guess it's just our boys being nice.
The transit cleans are very easy with JQ. All we do is cross the seat belts and put the safety card at the front of the pocket. The rubbish collection is ever so glamourous and done at top of decent with a rubbish bag.
Any toilet cleaning, bins, soiled carpet etc are dealt with by request from cleaning contractors.
Also we do not 'clean'. We 'tidy' just ask the AIRC.
If you look at the schedule more than half the transits are longer than 25 minutes. The whole thing takes four of us about two mins. Most of the time their offer to help comes too late! Guess it's just our boys being nice.
The transit cleans are very easy with JQ. All we do is cross the seat belts and put the safety card at the front of the pocket. The rubbish collection is ever so glamourous and done at top of decent with a rubbish bag.
Any toilet cleaning, bins, soiled carpet etc are dealt with by request from cleaning contractors.
Also we do not 'clean'. We 'tidy' just ask the AIRC.
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IF they are, who on Earth is doing the preflights? 
Jetstar have elected not to be "Jetsafe" and have an LAME do a preflight as well as one of the Pilots, now you are saying that the Pilots are cleaning the Aircraft on these short turnrounds.
Truly a disaster waiting to happen.
I just pray that CASA put a stop to this before lives are lost.
Jetstar have elected not to be "Jetsafe" and have an LAME do a preflight as well as one of the Pilots, now you are saying that the Pilots are cleaning the Aircraft on these short turnrounds.
Truly a disaster waiting to happen.
I just pray that CASA put a stop to this before lives are lost.
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What actually decides the minimum turnround time, with any Airline?
With a turnround, not a through flight, I would have thought it would be unloading and reloading the baggage, yes?
Surely this would take longer than any Pilot checks, Hostess checks, refuelling, Engineering checks, catering and of course passenger unloading and reloading?
With a turnround, not a through flight, I would have thought it would be unloading and reloading the baggage, yes?
Surely this would take longer than any Pilot checks, Hostess checks, refuelling, Engineering checks, catering and of course passenger unloading and reloading?
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airsupport
We dont do them. Its more important to help clean the cabin.
As you said, we do things this way because we are hanging out for a "disaster." Gee cant wait call the media!!
Its not expected nor does it happen on every turn, but some pilots assist if they have time. Why? Believe it or not pilots and cabin crew in this outfit work as a team. It may supprise some of you, that the whole crew get together at sign on for a full brief on the day ahead. The value of such a simple exercise to teamwork and a smooth operation, has to be experienced to be fully appreciated.
IF they are, who on Earth is doing the preflights?
As you said, we do things this way because we are hanging out for a "disaster." Gee cant wait call the media!!
Its not expected nor does it happen on every turn, but some pilots assist if they have time. Why? Believe it or not pilots and cabin crew in this outfit work as a team. It may supprise some of you, that the whole crew get together at sign on for a full brief on the day ahead. The value of such a simple exercise to teamwork and a smooth operation, has to be experienced to be fully appreciated.
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Call it teamwork or call it CRM but if you own an airline at this level and carry passengers, you need someone to clean the plane after it has been used.
To not have people to do it, be it cabin crew or otherwise, is simply cutting corners.
Technical crew........mmm think about that.
But if you want to do it, go ahead. Create a culture where it becomes expected for pilots to clean the cabin, and you get yourself a bad name for being someone who doesn't want to clean the cabin.
I really see a conflict in the legal responsibilities of the Captain in particular here, and to a lesser extent the FO.
At the subsequent court of enquiry, the lawyer will ask why was it that briefing was forgotten, why the checklist was omitted, or whatever you can dream up, your response of 'but I was cleaning up someones vomit during the turnaround and my mind was elsewhere' will be headline news.
Good luck.
To not have people to do it, be it cabin crew or otherwise, is simply cutting corners.
Technical crew........mmm think about that.
But if you want to do it, go ahead. Create a culture where it becomes expected for pilots to clean the cabin, and you get yourself a bad name for being someone who doesn't want to clean the cabin.
I really see a conflict in the legal responsibilities of the Captain in particular here, and to a lesser extent the FO.
At the subsequent court of enquiry, the lawyer will ask why was it that briefing was forgotten, why the checklist was omitted, or whatever you can dream up, your response of 'but I was cleaning up someones vomit during the turnaround and my mind was elsewhere' will be headline news.
Good luck.
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LetsGoRated,
I am not that surpised to hear that you don't do them.
It is great that Jetstar crews operate as a tight knit unit, it was similar at Compass.
However, my concern is that compared to other Airlines, Jetstar have the same or less turnround times, and as you do not have an LAME carrying out a preflight safety inspection like the other Airlines, one would hope you do a very thorough preflight inspection of your own, yet you still find time to help clean the cabin as well.
Either you are much more efficient than the Pilots at the other Airlines, or you are not doing all they do, and they have the Engineering assistance too, which is it?
Sorry, you already admitted you don't do a preflight.
I am not that surpised to hear that you don't do them.
It is great that Jetstar crews operate as a tight knit unit, it was similar at Compass.
However, my concern is that compared to other Airlines, Jetstar have the same or less turnround times, and as you do not have an LAME carrying out a preflight safety inspection like the other Airlines, one would hope you do a very thorough preflight inspection of your own, yet you still find time to help clean the cabin as well.
Either you are much more efficient than the Pilots at the other Airlines, or you are not doing all they do, and they have the Engineering assistance too, which is it?
Sorry, you already admitted you don't do a preflight.
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I am operating A320s in Europe in the Holiday charter market. They are seated for 180pax. I believe Jetstar is going for 177 config. There is not a hope in hell they will turn an Airbus in that time consistently. It takes at least 10 min just to get the people off. And then 20 min to board. Thats without cleaning. Jetstar is chasing world,s best pratice on world,s lowest pay.
Incidently the seat pitch with that many people is not as bad as you think. It still better than what is on Ryanair aircraft.
Incidently the seat pitch with that many people is not as bad as you think. It still better than what is on Ryanair aircraft.
Hey Airsupport,
You sound like an alias for lame???
Funny that lame has disappeared and you have replaced him with the same unsubstantiated claims.
So lame (Airsupport) are you going to answer my question from previous posts yet? What other airlines are you talking about?? "Major" airlines again or "fake" airlines ??
Sonny,
on a 25 min turnaround, the tech crew don't assist with cabin tidy duties as they are busy doing pilot stuff. They only usually assist at the end of the tour of duty.
You sound like an alias for lame???
Funny that lame has disappeared and you have replaced him with the same unsubstantiated claims.
So lame (Airsupport) are you going to answer my question from previous posts yet? What other airlines are you talking about?? "Major" airlines again or "fake" airlines ??
Sonny,
on a 25 min turnaround, the tech crew don't assist with cabin tidy duties as they are busy doing pilot stuff. They only usually assist at the end of the tour of duty.
Last edited by Watchdog; 4th Jun 2004 at 10:39.
I do my walkaround in 30 seconds, and the worst part about cabin cleaning is having to lift up your feet and put them on the biz class bulkhead while the vacuum cleaner goes under your legs. Bloody annoying when you're trying to read the paper on a 20 minute turn...
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_what the hell is "TECH" crew???
The term is CRM.
If the pilots/flightdeck crew/cockpit crew don't spend enough time doing their jobs properly then the term is "(bad) AIRMANSHIP". Remember that word?
These days the term CRM is used by just about eveyone else to describe anything the pilots do (or don't do) to make others feel better.
Now I just know the wallies will consider me a CRM nightmare and whatever but what do they know about my 14000 hours? How many emergencies handled? And no problems with respect from AND FOR the lames/dispatchers/hosties I work with...
Nightmare... I don't think so. I just don't have interest in the touchy-feely crap some people seem to feel makes up "good CRM". IE rushing out to help the girls clean the seats. Yeah I'll do it if I'm standing around doing nothing, I suppose.
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Watchdog,
I realise that you obviously have big problems at Jetstar, but your post has me puzzled?
You say I have replaced someone, yet I have been here for over 2 years, and have some 225 posts.
You on the other hand have just turned up, have some 11 posts, and most of them seem to be just attacking other members who dare to even mention Jetstar.
While it is a good thing to defend your Employer, your childish posts are becoming very boring.
Why not spend your time and effort improving safety at Jetstar, God knows it needs it.
I realise that you obviously have big problems at Jetstar, but your post has me puzzled?
You say I have replaced someone, yet I have been here for over 2 years, and have some 225 posts.
You on the other hand have just turned up, have some 11 posts, and most of them seem to be just attacking other members who dare to even mention Jetstar.
While it is a good thing to defend your Employer, your childish posts are becoming very boring.
Why not spend your time and effort improving safety at Jetstar, God knows it needs it.
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Phat Boy
While I do not support tech crew cleaning the cabins. I don't condone it and it is up to the individual. You have a narrow minded view and wow you have 14000 hours. However you will find they were doing this when Jetstar was Impulse and had longer turn around times or even arrived early. Now a bit of a stretch may be warranted and if a tech crew decides to help out. Well good on him.
Well with your 14000 hours of flying I thought you would be familiar with the term.
Have a nice evening
While I do not support tech crew cleaning the cabins. I don't condone it and it is up to the individual. You have a narrow minded view and wow you have 14000 hours. However you will find they were doing this when Jetstar was Impulse and had longer turn around times or even arrived early. Now a bit of a stretch may be warranted and if a tech crew decides to help out. Well good on him.
what the hell is "TECH" crew???
Have a nice evening
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You missed the irony, adama. Yeah I know what tech crew means I just find it so ridiculous it makes me laugh when I read peoples' use of the term.
Do you seriously think a pilot came up with that name???
"technical crew" Seems to be a quaint local (aussie) bit of terminology.
So you don't support cleaning cabins and you don't condone it either. Huh? You have a very limited outlook, Adama.
Do you seriously think a pilot came up with that name???
"technical crew"
Seems to be a quaint local (aussie) bit of terminology. So you don't support cleaning cabins and you don't condone it either. Huh? You have a very limited outlook, Adama.
airsupport,
like you, i have two logins.
Please justify your statement?
PS. Gooood niiigggghhht "lame"
like you, i have two logins.
Why not spend your time and effort improving safety at Jetstar, God knows it needs it.
PS. Gooood niiigggghhht "lame"