Qantas Warned Of Heathrow Union Battle.
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JBM:
You said it all really. 'You don;t think when you go to work'.
If you told me that I wouldn't employ you at QF either. Most companies are looking for a little more in their customer focussed roles than people who don't think.
It seems you don;t think too much before posting here.
And that you don;t understand how Industrial relations work. Tell me this - why don't you work for 10K less than you get now ? And then 10K less than that? Your blessed managers would love it wouldn't they?
Tool.
You said it all really. 'You don;t think when you go to work'.
If you told me that I wouldn't employ you at QF either. Most companies are looking for a little more in their customer focussed roles than people who don't think.
It seems you don;t think too much before posting here.
And that you don;t understand how Industrial relations work. Tell me this - why don't you work for 10K less than you get now ? And then 10K less than that? Your blessed managers would love it wouldn't they?
Tool.
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Oh! It's such a mentally demanding job isn't it!
It is fascinating when people resort to insult when their argument is so hollow, as Argus has succinctly put in previous posts.
Go on, strike for your rights. Go ahead. I can't wait to see the outcome, which is assured. Your employer will get their way. The flights will still take off. And the public will turn their backs on you.
Good luck as some will need it when they find themselves in the real world.
It is fascinating when people resort to insult when their argument is so hollow, as Argus has succinctly put in previous posts.
Go on, strike for your rights. Go ahead. I can't wait to see the outcome, which is assured. Your employer will get their way. The flights will still take off. And the public will turn their backs on you.
Good luck as some will need it when they find themselves in the real world.
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Nothing personal about it chump. You said it.
It's obvioulsy not mentally demanding for you because you dont put any effort in to thinking about your job - it's just a paycheck. You basically said it yourself.
The occassions I am forced to fly Virgin it is noticeable among many of your peers. I used to bag out Qantas about their service, but it has improved (at least domestically) of late - and compared to what I have got from Virgin, ground and air, it is always 1st choice - often the fare is $10-20 more, and regularly cheaper. It is $20 well spent anyway.
The argument isn't about that anyway - it's about grasping how you have to negotiate in the corporate-friendly IR rules that George W. Howard's government have created. I just don't think you get it. Nothing personal. (Maybe you have given it the same amount of thought you givr your job?)
My going on strike won't do much for the FAAA - I'm not a flight attendant.
Another day of global peace where nothing much happens. No war, no inflation, no violence, no rainforest. That's a ****su Tonka day.
It's obvioulsy not mentally demanding for you because you dont put any effort in to thinking about your job - it's just a paycheck. You basically said it yourself.
The occassions I am forced to fly Virgin it is noticeable among many of your peers. I used to bag out Qantas about their service, but it has improved (at least domestically) of late - and compared to what I have got from Virgin, ground and air, it is always 1st choice - often the fare is $10-20 more, and regularly cheaper. It is $20 well spent anyway.
The argument isn't about that anyway - it's about grasping how you have to negotiate in the corporate-friendly IR rules that George W. Howard's government have created. I just don't think you get it. Nothing personal. (Maybe you have given it the same amount of thought you givr your job?)
My going on strike won't do much for the FAAA - I'm not a flight attendant.
Another day of global peace where nothing much happens. No war, no inflation, no violence, no rainforest. That's a ****su Tonka day.
Last edited by Shitsu-Tonka; 13th Jun 2004 at 05:30.
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The argument isn't about that anyway - it's about grasping how you have to negotiate in the corporate-friendly IR rules that George W. Howard's government have created.
And on the other, the acolytes of the H.R.Nicholls Society (see
here who would have the Australian Labour Market deregulated even further.
One of the reasons for Tony Blair's previous electoral success in the UK was his sidelining of organised labour and its influence over Party policy making.
And one of Mark Latham's Achilles heels is the fear held by many in the community that a vote for the Labor Party means a return to government being directed by the ACTU.
I'm no apologist for the Howard Government. But, as a small business person and an employer, I welcome the opportunity to deal directly with my staff to our mutual advantage without Trades Hall breathing down our necks.
The situation with large corporations and bureaucracies is somewhat different. There's no doubt that employers, both public and private sector, are under more pressure than ever before to improve profitability and efficiency. Unions and employees display the classic symptoms of alienation when confronted with employer demands for change - unions because their raision d’etre is threatened and employees because of the threat to job security.
Unfortunately, only diamonds are forever. Outside of the public service and large corporations, union membership in Australia is at an all time low. Even if Labor wins the next election here, I can't see Mark Latham getting back into bed with the Swanson Street mafia - the potential loss of electorate support is a risk I don’t think he’d be prepared to take.
It’s against such a backdrop that QANTAS and the ASU enter negotiations for a new EBA. Each party wants something from the other. Ultimately, after some bargaining, a compromise will be reached. Who concedes what will be a test of brinkmanship. But both management and the union have an opportunity to agree on some much needed changes which, if adopted, might give some certainty to travellers like me that my fare with QANTAS is money well spent. If this comes about, I’ll gladly return to the QF fold.
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sirjfp,
am I correct in assuming you were an Ansett DOMESTIC FA?
If that is the case may I respectfully suggest that you are NOT qualified to opine on matters relating to INTERNATIONAL FA's.
10,11 12 and 13 day trips,19 hour unplanned TOD's, 12 hour time differences, jetlag and more than 6 months of the year spent away from home.
Do you know anything of these?
L2P
am I correct in assuming you were an Ansett DOMESTIC FA?
If that is the case may I respectfully suggest that you are NOT qualified to opine on matters relating to INTERNATIONAL FA's.
10,11 12 and 13 day trips,19 hour unplanned TOD's, 12 hour time differences, jetlag and more than 6 months of the year spent away from home.
Do you know anything of these?
L2P
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JBM
So why don't you negotiate an AWA between yourself and Virgin? I'm sure your management would reward you in kind with the same conditions as outlined in your Agreement...not.
As for having a go at the FAAA re:representing your colleagues, and their actions, the FAAA (like any union) can't always defend the indefensible. Your 'friend with the 40 days fraudulent sick leave' will eventually be disposed of, just like the hundreds of other FA's at Virgin that get terminated.
The FAAA defends it's members - and sadly, it has no control over their behaviour as individuals.
Saying all your unionists at work (and I'm referring to the term 'all' here) is quite damaging - since I happen to know some of these people personally, and most have been promoted in their time with DJ. None of these people have been disciplined in any way at DJ - so I'd be careful with the sweeping statements.
You're free to have your opinion, as am I. However, as someone that practises it right now, you can have a good employer/unionist relationship for the benefit of all. And it hasn't blocked my promotion within my airline either.
So why don't you negotiate an AWA between yourself and Virgin? I'm sure your management would reward you in kind with the same conditions as outlined in your Agreement...not.
As for having a go at the FAAA re:representing your colleagues, and their actions, the FAAA (like any union) can't always defend the indefensible. Your 'friend with the 40 days fraudulent sick leave' will eventually be disposed of, just like the hundreds of other FA's at Virgin that get terminated.
The FAAA defends it's members - and sadly, it has no control over their behaviour as individuals.
Saying all your unionists at work (and I'm referring to the term 'all' here) is quite damaging - since I happen to know some of these people personally, and most have been promoted in their time with DJ. None of these people have been disciplined in any way at DJ - so I'd be careful with the sweeping statements.
You're free to have your opinion, as am I. However, as someone that practises it right now, you can have a good employer/unionist relationship for the benefit of all. And it hasn't blocked my promotion within my airline either.
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buster,
you are indeed correct . The one and same.
L2P.
Indeed, the conditions are different for longhaul . I have a neighbour who flew longhaul up until 11 months ago, as well as a couple of friends still in the longhaul game.
However , although these conditions are " harsh " on the personal life , when it comes to payday they have no compaints .
They do very well financially compared to most other long haul cabin crew around the world.
Don't get me wrong here . I hope these wages and conditions can be sustained . I merely say that the world is changing out there . As rough as it seems If Dixon can get away with cheaper labour overseas to do the same job then he will . I don't agree with the morality of this but it is possible that this scenario will become reality in the near future.
you are indeed correct . The one and same.
L2P.
Indeed, the conditions are different for longhaul . I have a neighbour who flew longhaul up until 11 months ago, as well as a couple of friends still in the longhaul game.
However , although these conditions are " harsh " on the personal life , when it comes to payday they have no compaints .
They do very well financially compared to most other long haul cabin crew around the world.
Don't get me wrong here . I hope these wages and conditions can be sustained . I merely say that the world is changing out there . As rough as it seems If Dixon can get away with cheaper labour overseas to do the same job then he will . I don't agree with the morality of this but it is possible that this scenario will become reality in the near future.
Evertonian
Ahhh, Jolly good sirjfp! 
L2P..Whilst sirjfp may have done only infrequent OS trips, I can vouch for his ability to speak on matters relating to the FAAA.
If one can only discuss this matter when one has been a "long haul" FA, then I shall respectfully withdraw from this thread...I would also expect that you should refrain from making comments about Management issues as you may not have the credentials to discuss them. 
L2P..Whilst sirjfp may have done only infrequent OS trips, I can vouch for his ability to speak on matters relating to the FAAA.
If one can only discuss this matter when one has been a "long haul" FA, then I shall respectfully withdraw from this thread...I would also expect that you should refrain from making comments about Management issues as you may not have the credentials to discuss them.
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Left2Primary you said:
If that is the case may I respectfully suggest that you are NOT qualified to opine on matters relating to INTERNATIONAL FA's.
10,11 12 and 13 day trips,19 hour unplanned TOD's, 12 hour time differences, jetlag and more than 6 months of the year spent away from home.
Surely this is the perfect argument for outsourcing FAs. Let me take you through your argument: If FAs where based in London then you would only get to Singapore, Hong Kong, Bangkok or China (?). This means less time away from home, less time zone change, less jet lag and less mega sectors being on your feet for 14 hours (with a couple off).
Therefore less need for three days in a hotel (one will do), and according to your own argument, you will have a better standard of life and will accept less pay for that better life. How about domestic FA pay? Or paramedics pay?
Doesn’t everybody win – less away time and less jet lag for FAs and less wages outlay, less hotel accommodation and less dead heading for the QF shareholders? HR theory suggests that pay rate is a poor predictor for happy employees. Perhaps better lifestyle, not better pay, would make FAs happier with their job. This would leed to better service outcomes.
I think you better discuss strategy with the FAAA before going down this line.
Personally I think being an FA is a trap. Once down this road there is no way off. With all the shift work you cannot study your way into another job and no one will accept any other unskilled worker for 60,000 to 80,000 pa. (Sorry to be direct but unless you have another formal qualification such as a degree that's how the outside world will view you). One of my friends has a HR degree and works for QF at $40,000 pa. Another has an B.Bus. and a MBA and works for a Melbourne council and get $45,000, so she works at a Dan Murphy call centre part-time so that she can save for a house- she has an MBA! Comparitively a senior, hard working QF CSM can earn more that the average GP who has seven years of study (at a bulk billing clinic).
How much is a FA worth? Why did you pick 12 percent?
If that is the case may I respectfully suggest that you are NOT qualified to opine on matters relating to INTERNATIONAL FA's.
10,11 12 and 13 day trips,19 hour unplanned TOD's, 12 hour time differences, jetlag and more than 6 months of the year spent away from home.
Surely this is the perfect argument for outsourcing FAs. Let me take you through your argument: If FAs where based in London then you would only get to Singapore, Hong Kong, Bangkok or China (?). This means less time away from home, less time zone change, less jet lag and less mega sectors being on your feet for 14 hours (with a couple off).
Therefore less need for three days in a hotel (one will do), and according to your own argument, you will have a better standard of life and will accept less pay for that better life. How about domestic FA pay? Or paramedics pay?
Doesn’t everybody win – less away time and less jet lag for FAs and less wages outlay, less hotel accommodation and less dead heading for the QF shareholders? HR theory suggests that pay rate is a poor predictor for happy employees. Perhaps better lifestyle, not better pay, would make FAs happier with their job. This would leed to better service outcomes.
I think you better discuss strategy with the FAAA before going down this line.
Personally I think being an FA is a trap. Once down this road there is no way off. With all the shift work you cannot study your way into another job and no one will accept any other unskilled worker for 60,000 to 80,000 pa. (Sorry to be direct but unless you have another formal qualification such as a degree that's how the outside world will view you). One of my friends has a HR degree and works for QF at $40,000 pa. Another has an B.Bus. and a MBA and works for a Melbourne council and get $45,000, so she works at a Dan Murphy call centre part-time so that she can save for a house- she has an MBA! Comparitively a senior, hard working QF CSM can earn more that the average GP who has seven years of study (at a bulk billing clinic).
How much is a FA worth? Why did you pick 12 percent?
Last edited by Yawn; 13th Jun 2004 at 09:55.
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Why get into "what is an FA worth"? It is irrelevent at this point. They are worth whatever they can get, whatever the market will bear. If you are jealous of them, get over it. Or get out your CV. Damn right they make good money. So what's the problem? My brother is a tradesman, and I'll guarantee he makes more than any pilot in oz. Is that fair? If he stuffs up, he gets a call-back and loses some money in lost productivity. He certainly doesn't kill 400 poeple. Is that fair? Who cares. More power to him. It's what he gets. Just look in the newspaper if you want to see examples of seemingly disparit remuneration. Is a currency trader worth 10 times the pay of a nurse? Maybe, if you take into consideration ALL aspects, such as job satisfaction.
The issue is the jobs going overseas. Some people here really need to get out more, and see what sort of money you can pay people 'overseas'.
Argus made a very sensible post. And someone else mentioned 'morality', a word seemingly out of fashion. Certainly in corporate circles.
The issue is the jobs going overseas. Some people here really need to get out more, and see what sort of money you can pay people 'overseas'.
Argus made a very sensible post. And someone else mentioned 'morality', a word seemingly out of fashion. Certainly in corporate circles.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Both you and I left Oz for o/s, ferris for possibly different reasons.
The reason we are STILL o/s (I would hazard a guess in your case), is because of the disparity in salaries between Australia and offshore countries.
There are a myriad of Aussies working outside their birth country for FAR MORE money than is offered to them back home.
Surely there must be a message to the Geoff Dixons of Oz, that if non-Australian companies are willing to encourage Aussies to leave Australia, come and work for them for salaries 2, 3, 5 times the rate being paid in Oz, then there must be something a little "sus" about workers who offer their services for 1/2 or 1/3 LESS than Aussies working in Oz!
Superficially, it might SEEM that the work gets done - but don't expect to replace the Aussie worker on a 1-1 basis.
Check out how many MORE (lesser paid) non-Australians are needed to do a similar job.
Scratch the surface a bit more, and ask some non-routine questions, to see if the cheaper labour can think "outside the box".
What looks good in theory, in this instance, is going to cost you MORE in the very short term, Geoff.
And the Australian population in general - through increased social benefit handouts - down the track, in the medium term.
Farming Australian jobs out overseas is a matter of NATIONAL CONCERN - not a short term, bonus-orientated ploy by GM's greedy for an extra $MILLION or $2 MILLION in the next financial year.
Decisions such as these affect ALL Australians!
The reason we are STILL o/s (I would hazard a guess in your case), is because of the disparity in salaries between Australia and offshore countries.
There are a myriad of Aussies working outside their birth country for FAR MORE money than is offered to them back home.
Surely there must be a message to the Geoff Dixons of Oz, that if non-Australian companies are willing to encourage Aussies to leave Australia, come and work for them for salaries 2, 3, 5 times the rate being paid in Oz, then there must be something a little "sus" about workers who offer their services for 1/2 or 1/3 LESS than Aussies working in Oz!
Superficially, it might SEEM that the work gets done - but don't expect to replace the Aussie worker on a 1-1 basis.
Check out how many MORE (lesser paid) non-Australians are needed to do a similar job.
Scratch the surface a bit more, and ask some non-routine questions, to see if the cheaper labour can think "outside the box".
What looks good in theory, in this instance, is going to cost you MORE in the very short term, Geoff.
And the Australian population in general - through increased social benefit handouts - down the track, in the medium term.
Farming Australian jobs out overseas is a matter of NATIONAL CONCERN - not a short term, bonus-orientated ploy by GM's greedy for an extra $MILLION or $2 MILLION in the next financial year.
Decisions such as these affect ALL Australians!
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ferris, YOU are right on the money. Heh Heh.
Oh by the way I am not an airline employee.
News: The QF shortlist Has been activated.
Several ' friends' of mine who have been waiting on the 'shortlist' for over eighteen months have been called up by QF .............wait for it........for An ELEVEN MONTH CONTRACT with QF/LH.
NO prospect of future employment with QF, AFTER the contract ends. What has recruitment and subsequent employment come to in Oz? Did the FAAA have any say in this? How does the RAT get away with this?
Some in order to accept , (had no choice) gave current employers only a weeks notice in order to start training school soon. Several schools planned ASAP.
Is it part of QFs strategy? again highlighting topics in this forum. Someone somewhere needs to expose all this cr%p. QF is on a roll. Let's just sit back and see them get away with it.
"The beast cannot be stopped'
Oh by the way I am not an airline employee.
News: The QF shortlist Has been activated.
Several ' friends' of mine who have been waiting on the 'shortlist' for over eighteen months have been called up by QF .............wait for it........for An ELEVEN MONTH CONTRACT with QF/LH.
NO prospect of future employment with QF, AFTER the contract ends. What has recruitment and subsequent employment come to in Oz? Did the FAAA have any say in this? How does the RAT get away with this?
Some in order to accept , (had no choice) gave current employers only a weeks notice in order to start training school soon. Several schools planned ASAP.
Is it part of QFs strategy? again highlighting topics in this forum. Someone somewhere needs to expose all this cr%p. QF is on a roll. Let's just sit back and see them get away with it.
"The beast cannot be stopped'
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Greetings!
I've come into this discussion rather late
Kaptain M, I find your comments about the o/s salaries interesting; especially concerning the potential outsourcing of FAs to London. Who's to say that the outsourcing to London will not be similar to that done in Thailand, where the FAs are not Qantas employees but that of a service company. These FAs are paid in Thai Bahts and do not have the same award conditions as Qantas FAs, but fly as one of them. Does't that make the argument of higher o/s salaries o/s moot?
Could this be the real reason that Qantas has floated this caper?
I've come into this discussion rather late
Kaptain M, I find your comments about the o/s salaries interesting; especially concerning the potential outsourcing of FAs to London. Who's to say that the outsourcing to London will not be similar to that done in Thailand, where the FAs are not Qantas employees but that of a service company. These FAs are paid in Thai Bahts and do not have the same award conditions as Qantas FAs, but fly as one of them. Does't that make the argument of higher o/s salaries o/s moot?
Could this be the real reason that Qantas has floated this caper?
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Approach this with a broader outlook - don't focus in on whether you either hve had a bad experience on a Qantas flight, didn't get accepted in to Qantas as a F/A, are a QF pilot who got a knock back on a slip (or a cold cuppa) or whatever...
How much is it worth to keep jobs / skills / opportunities in Australia?
What is the point of outsourcing every industry to Mumbai / Bangkok or Auckland if it leave nobody in Australia with an income to pay for this new 'cheaper' product?
Where do you draw the line? Why not bring in cheaper surgeons? Maybe they will work for 1/2 the price - maybe a 1/3?
Why not base all the QF longhaul pilots in Bangkok - pay them in Baht? I mean - it's not rocket science is it?
Have you noticed how 'good' the service is with overseas call centres? I had to explain the intricacies of where an apartment building was located in a FNQ city last year when a parcel from FEDEX didn;t get delivered. It was all totally lost on the (local number) Fedex Office - probably because she was sitting in Luzon City!
This is about greed - not service levels. And not greed for shareholders - just for senior executives, who will parachute out before the empire crumbles completely. Havent we seen it all before?
How much is it worth to keep jobs / skills / opportunities in Australia?
What is the point of outsourcing every industry to Mumbai / Bangkok or Auckland if it leave nobody in Australia with an income to pay for this new 'cheaper' product?
Where do you draw the line? Why not bring in cheaper surgeons? Maybe they will work for 1/2 the price - maybe a 1/3?
Why not base all the QF longhaul pilots in Bangkok - pay them in Baht? I mean - it's not rocket science is it?
Have you noticed how 'good' the service is with overseas call centres? I had to explain the intricacies of where an apartment building was located in a FNQ city last year when a parcel from FEDEX didn;t get delivered. It was all totally lost on the (local number) Fedex Office - probably because she was sitting in Luzon City!
This is about greed - not service levels. And not greed for shareholders - just for senior executives, who will parachute out before the empire crumbles completely. Havent we seen it all before?
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Here here ****zu,
I hear you! I recently sold an item through the trading post to an Indian chap who was obviously very skint... He haggled and haggled....
Turns out this guy was employed by Telstra in India and had been seconded to OZ. His "provided" accomodation is over an hour commute to work and he says that his "8" hour days are typically 12 to 14 with no overtime and he is given a laptop to
"finish up" at home.
His parting words to me were that he was returning back to India for a rest and to work for a more reasonable company!
Whos going to stop this crap!
I hear you! I recently sold an item through the trading post to an Indian chap who was obviously very skint... He haggled and haggled....
Turns out this guy was employed by Telstra in India and had been seconded to OZ. His "provided" accomodation is over an hour commute to work and he says that his "8" hour days are typically 12 to 14 with no overtime and he is given a laptop to
"finish up" at home.
His parting words to me were that he was returning back to India for a rest and to work for a more reasonable company!
Whos going to stop this crap!
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I'm not disagreeing with you ****zu. It IS about greed; but more important it is the thin edge of the wedge.
Where and when will it stop? Maybe only when the whole of Qantas is outsourced! Then the "Spirit of Australia" can be just that - a spirit; with no body in Oz!
Where and when will it stop? Maybe only when the whole of Qantas is outsourced! Then the "Spirit of Australia" can be just that - a spirit; with no body in Oz!
