Class E Airspace Is Safe
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Uh, Ferris:
"IF CLASS E IS "SAFE", WHY ISN'T ALL THE AIRSPACE IN THE US, OR THE WORLD, CLASS E?"
....or conversely, if Class A (or insert your favourite airspace here) is the safest airspace, why isn't all the airspace in the US, or the world, Class A (or insert your favourite airspace here) ?
Why aren't *all* flights undertaken by dual 10,000 hour pilots under the IFR with at least twin turbine engines ...and 300% fuel reserves...and on and on ad nauseum
Argue, but at least be logical.
"IF CLASS E IS "SAFE", WHY ISN'T ALL THE AIRSPACE IN THE US, OR THE WORLD, CLASS E?"
....or conversely, if Class A (or insert your favourite airspace here) is the safest airspace, why isn't all the airspace in the US, or the world, Class A (or insert your favourite airspace here) ?
Why aren't *all* flights undertaken by dual 10,000 hour pilots under the IFR with at least twin turbine engines ...and 300% fuel reserves...and on and on ad nauseum
Argue, but at least be logical.
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$$$
All airspace should be class A (no VFR crap) and should be run by a privately owned profit making company like Serco. Whats the point of air traffic control if you cant make a buck out of it?
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If you cannot see VFR traffic because of the deficiencies of your system [any system, not specifically Australia's system] - then the obligation to pass traffic in respect of observed traffic cannot be met - but the designed procedures for Class E airspace are still satisfied
So, just because the LEGAL parameters are met, this makes it safe ?
The fact stillremains that AUS STILL does not have the same level of radar coverage as teh US has?
Dispute THIS fact, KNUCKLEHEAD!@!!!!!
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To the last post.
We have participated in many fora over the years, but we would strain to find a level of ignorance to compare. You must be embarassed.
Perhaps you would like to find a reference in ANY global documentation that identifies a requirement for radar in Class E airspace. It is not a pre-requisite, and Class E - in fact Class A, B, C, D E, F and G can - and are - be operated satisfactorily with or without radar coverage.
We hope for the sake of the travelling public in Australia that you are not a controller or air transport pilot. Clearly you would have failed airspace legislation.
We have participated in many fora over the years, but we would strain to find a level of ignorance to compare. You must be embarassed.
Perhaps you would like to find a reference in ANY global documentation that identifies a requirement for radar in Class E airspace. It is not a pre-requisite, and Class E - in fact Class A, B, C, D E, F and G can - and are - be operated satisfactorily with or without radar coverage.
We hope for the sake of the travelling public in Australia that you are not a controller or air transport pilot. Clearly you would have failed airspace legislation.
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VoR. I have always argued that while not a legislative requirement for Class E airspace to be under radar coverage, since "the passing of Radar observed VFR traffic" is such a huge component of the workings of E airspace I have always personally felt it is best suited to a radar environment. In my opinion non-radar airspace is best suited where there are high performance jets operating to being classified C, and have everything positively separated. Non-radar E, leaves too much reliance to visual separation, which invariably then leads to the odd TCAS avoidance. This TCAS reliance is especially disturbing in some parts of Oz, where some aircrafts transponders, if turned on at all, have probably never actually interrogated a radar head, so the value of TCAS could be seriously undermined. I am sure your little committee will make some condascending "we know best cos we are from the good old U S of A" but australians know Australian conditions better than anyone thanks.
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So, let me get this straight:
Andy
- When VoR says things you guys like, he's OK; but
- When VoR says things you don't like, then he's a "knucklehead"?
Andy
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AirNoServicesAustralia, I fail to understand why your :
I have always personally felt
and
in my opinion
should carry any more weight than Dick Smith’s :
I believe.
And just how ignorant of the supposedly “unique Australian conditions”
do you think the former Head Air Traffic Controller is?
As Daryl Kerrigan would say : Ya ********!
(Actually – upon reflection, I think I’ll take Dick Smith’s I believe.)
I have always personally felt
and
in my opinion
should carry any more weight than Dick Smith’s :
I believe.
And just how ignorant of the supposedly “unique Australian conditions”
do you think the former Head Air Traffic Controller is?As Daryl Kerrigan would say : Ya ********!
(Actually – upon reflection, I think I’ll take Dick Smith’s I believe.)
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Well well, good to see the two clowns above bothered to answer any of my concerns. Congratulations you have joined the distinguished company of Winstun in my ignore all posts list. Not going to waste my time reading that drivel. But to answer before I never have to see your rubbish again, I believe and I feel, in my case is not the basis for airspace design. Everyone on here has their beliefs, the only difference is Dick has changed Australian Aviation dramatically based purely on his beliefs. Big Big difference.
If you are referring to the esteemed ex Head ATC, I personally don't have much respect for him.
Now that you two numb nuts are ignored by my computer, I guess I can also quote the Castle,
Ahhhh the Serenity
If you are referring to the esteemed ex Head ATC, I personally don't have much respect for him.
Now that you two numb nuts are ignored by my computer, I guess I can also quote the Castle,
Ahhhh the Serenity
Last edited by Woomera; 24th Apr 2004 at 07:03.
I’m with Aussie Andy on this one.
It’s duplicitous to applaud VOR for coming to a logical conclusion which you happen to like on one hand, but then lambaste VOR for coming to a logical conclusion which you happen not to like on the other.
And Aussie Andy has no connection with Dick Smith.
It’s duplicitous to applaud VOR for coming to a logical conclusion which you happen to like on one hand, but then lambaste VOR for coming to a logical conclusion which you happen not to like on the other.
And Aussie Andy has no connection with Dick Smith.
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Creampuff please read all the responses and disregard the angry comments made. Just read the facts and the questions posed. VoR is saying that E airspace is a perfectly fine class of airspace. Yet not that long ago they were making comments about the difficulty of seeing and avoiding unalerted VFR traffic for RPT jets. Now how does anyone suppose a non-communicating, no flight plan VFR in non-radar airspace is ever going to be anything other than unalerted traffic for the RPT aircraft. What, is the IFR psychic and thus going to sense the aircrafts presence. VoR also went to great lengths to point out that airspace should never be designed with TCAS as a mitigating factor in the safety of said airspace. Non-Radar E airspace as pointed out above has 2 levels of defence, first visual acquisition of a target the IFR doesn't even know is or isn't there, and then TCAS. How can anyone ever consider that to be safe??? And while people are saying safety is a relative term, in this case its bloody clear cut, if you are relying on only one safeguard before relying on TCAS to save the day, then thats dangerous, no matter what happens or doesn't happen in the states.
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Gentlemen and others.
Pleaase lets keep this civilised shall we and read carefully what the V o R actually said.
IMHO it is a perfectly balanced argument entirely in the context of their previous posts.
I seem to recall an acronym that got me through a bunch of CASA exams. RTFQ, because that's where the answer will be.
And let's not gets personal either
So far these threads have been remarkable (by PPRuNe standards anyway) for the rational level of debate despite the occasional appearance of our own beloved Court Jester.
Otherwise in the sprirt of that great Aussie movie it's "straight to the pool room darl"
Pleaase lets keep this civilised shall we and read carefully what the V o R actually said.
IMHO it is a perfectly balanced argument entirely in the context of their previous posts.
I seem to recall an acronym that got me through a bunch of CASA exams. RTFQ, because that's where the answer will be.
And let's not gets personal either
So far these threads have been remarkable (by PPRuNe standards anyway) for the rational level of debate despite the occasional appearance of our own beloved Court Jester.
Otherwise in the sprirt of that great Aussie movie it's "straight to the pool room darl"
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Ah, plazbot! I see you are a bit paranoid: there is no "they"! And if you don't think I'm Aussie, mate, call me (my phone number PM'd to you) and check my accent, or ask me tricky questions about "football, meatpies, kangaroos and Holden cars" if you like!
Andy
Andy
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VoR
Suprisingly, someone has rattled your cage. Your earlier work was devoid of your emotions.
Just for clarification purposes.
US class B published 'normal' dimensions is up to 10,000ft MSL Individually tailored in lateral and vertical limits to suit.
ie
LA
San Diego
Phoenix
Cincinnatti
Salt Lake City
Chicago
Atlanta
NY
are all at 10,000msl
Others for example are as required.
Kansas City
Minniapolis/St Paul
Pittsburgh
St Louis
Are all at 8000msl
Denver 12000MSL
(couldnt find any at 7000)
Class C is up to 4000AGL and 10NM
Class D is up to 2500AGL and 4NM
Class E is ALL Airways from 1200agl up to 18000msl and generally from 14500-18000 (exceptions noted, as often E will go to surface/700agl)
As a regional driver, I often flew into Chicago/Minni/Denver/Pheonix as well as many uncontrolled and class E airports. From the time we dropped below FL180 it was a constant job to see and avoid (class E) no matter where we were. In Denver for example (as with many other class B airports) there were many small Ga airports close by.( within 4nm) it was often that we had to keep a sharp lookout even on 4mile final as the airspace below was class E. God forbid the little guys busted into B airspace
BUT
The one really good thing about class E (or any other class for that matter) surrounding 'most' (read almost all) class B airports is that ALL aircraft within 30nm HAD to have an operable modeC transponder. Not a requirement for all class E of course. Out in the boondocks it could be a challenge to self seperate in E while on a visual approach (up to 30 miles out) to the airport with GA aircraft not even required to have a radio, let alone a transponder. We always were given the location of even primary targets though, before sending us off. Obviously, (or maybe not so obviously) If the other traffic in the area was an IFR (regardless of whether the E airspace was RADAR equiped or not) we were not cleared into the area (airport/holding pattern/airway) until we either had the other IFR traffic in sight or the other IFR was out of the way.(ie landed or moved outside of seperation tollerances.)
Clearly however, it was always our discretion to ask for an amended clearance if we believed a known (or unsighted) VFR aircraft could pose a collision risk.
Even though we had a TCAS it was really only any good around class B airports as most everywhere else there was little to no requirement for transponders. In other words you coudlnt rely on TCAS outside of the class B 30nm)
I guess my point is, ever since my GA flight training days, class E was really only viewed as an extention of G except that it was possible to get a level of IFR service that G didnt provide. We were so used to using the see and avoid with the added bonus that ATC MIGHT give us VFR traffic advisories and full IFR seperation. From my experience I feel comfortable with class E surrounding these busy airports, I suppose simply because Im used to it.....
Anyway, VoR. You dissapoint me with your personal attacks as you previously showed enourmous restraint. I too now suspect that youre not the origional Voice of Reason!
Cheers
MJB
PS Ferris...If my understanding of 'flight data' is correct then yes the US contollers do all three of those functions also.
Just for clarification purposes.
US class B published 'normal' dimensions is up to 10,000ft MSL Individually tailored in lateral and vertical limits to suit.
ie
LA
San Diego
Phoenix
Cincinnatti
Salt Lake City
Chicago
Atlanta
NY
are all at 10,000msl
Others for example are as required.
Kansas City
Minniapolis/St Paul
Pittsburgh
St Louis
Are all at 8000msl
Denver 12000MSL
(couldnt find any at 7000)
Class C is up to 4000AGL and 10NM
Class D is up to 2500AGL and 4NM
Class E is ALL Airways from 1200agl up to 18000msl and generally from 14500-18000 (exceptions noted, as often E will go to surface/700agl)
As a regional driver, I often flew into Chicago/Minni/Denver/Pheonix as well as many uncontrolled and class E airports. From the time we dropped below FL180 it was a constant job to see and avoid (class E) no matter where we were. In Denver for example (as with many other class B airports) there were many small Ga airports close by.( within 4nm) it was often that we had to keep a sharp lookout even on 4mile final as the airspace below was class E. God forbid the little guys busted into B airspace
BUT
The one really good thing about class E (or any other class for that matter) surrounding 'most' (read almost all) class B airports is that ALL aircraft within 30nm HAD to have an operable modeC transponder. Not a requirement for all class E of course. Out in the boondocks it could be a challenge to self seperate in E while on a visual approach (up to 30 miles out) to the airport with GA aircraft not even required to have a radio, let alone a transponder. We always were given the location of even primary targets though, before sending us off. Obviously, (or maybe not so obviously) If the other traffic in the area was an IFR (regardless of whether the E airspace was RADAR equiped or not) we were not cleared into the area (airport/holding pattern/airway) until we either had the other IFR traffic in sight or the other IFR was out of the way.(ie landed or moved outside of seperation tollerances.)
Clearly however, it was always our discretion to ask for an amended clearance if we believed a known (or unsighted) VFR aircraft could pose a collision risk.
Even though we had a TCAS it was really only any good around class B airports as most everywhere else there was little to no requirement for transponders. In other words you coudlnt rely on TCAS outside of the class B 30nm)
I guess my point is, ever since my GA flight training days, class E was really only viewed as an extention of G except that it was possible to get a level of IFR service that G didnt provide. We were so used to using the see and avoid with the added bonus that ATC MIGHT give us VFR traffic advisories and full IFR seperation. From my experience I feel comfortable with class E surrounding these busy airports, I suppose simply because Im used to it.....
Anyway, VoR. You dissapoint me with your personal attacks as you previously showed enourmous restraint. I too now suspect that youre not the origional Voice of Reason!
Cheers
MJB
PS Ferris...If my understanding of 'flight data' is correct then yes the US contollers do all three of those functions also.
The one really good thing about class E (or any other class for that matter) surrounding 'most' (read almost all) class B airports [in the USA] is that ALL aircraft within 30nm HAD to have an operable mode C transponder.
(And a slight drift off track if I may Woomera: I’m not surprised that even the most level headed of posters sometimes lose patience when faced with the downright rudeness and stupidity that occasionally finds it way onto D&G.)
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Taresa-Green...
If you are a 747 driver and if you have flown to LA/SanFran or any other port city of the US....its too late, youve already done it...I trust you didnt have a mid air?
MJB
Cream puff
Just like there is no requirement for ATC to verify that your medical is valid, fuel caps are on....etc, etc, etc..... there is no specific requirement to check xponder with ATC. But if it is inop then I can probably dig up a dozen regs that you would have broken before your took off!
If you are a 747 driver and if you have flown to LA/SanFran or any other port city of the US....its too late, youve already done it...I trust you didnt have a mid air?
MJB
Cream puff
Just like there is no requirement for ATC to verify that your medical is valid, fuel caps are on....etc, etc, etc..... there is no specific requirement to check xponder with ATC. But if it is inop then I can probably dig up a dozen regs that you would have broken before your took off!
Last edited by mjbow2; 24th Apr 2004 at 07:40.
So there’s no room for misinterpretation here, mjbow2: Are you saying that in the class E airspace to which you referred – that is, in the class E airspace around class B airports in the USA in which the carriage and use of mode C is/was mandated – VFR aircraft are/were not required to contact ATC to verify the serviceability and accuracy of the transponder.
It’s yes or no answer.
It’s yes or no answer.