A question with questionable answers!
Grandpa Aerotart
I'd be just fascinated to know what little electric connection is not being made in the brains of PL and, to a lesser extent Keg, that allows them no access to logical thought!
You people, members of a pilot's union which has NEVER looked after anyone's but their own best interest seem to think that the IPG should predicate their negotiations on what may, or may not, be in YOUR best interests or those of the wider aviation industry!!
Never in the history of the union movement has a union acted out of anything but it's members best interests...I would go so far as to suggest they would be derilect in their duties to do otherwise.
I know someone on the IPG and a more fair minded individual you'd be hard pressed to find....and I can assure you PL he's never sat in a B1900.
You people who, due more to good luck on the day than any other single thing, jagged jobs in QF seem to believe that IPG members are lesser because they didn't.
QF pilot's are not the master race, despite what you have been led to believe by some old 744 Captains.
Leadership comes from the top kiddies.
Chuck
PS: To answer DKs question........Of course they would.
You people, members of a pilot's union which has NEVER looked after anyone's but their own best interest seem to think that the IPG should predicate their negotiations on what may, or may not, be in YOUR best interests or those of the wider aviation industry!!
Never in the history of the union movement has a union acted out of anything but it's members best interests...I would go so far as to suggest they would be derilect in their duties to do otherwise.
I know someone on the IPG and a more fair minded individual you'd be hard pressed to find....and I can assure you PL he's never sat in a B1900.
You people who, due more to good luck on the day than any other single thing, jagged jobs in QF seem to believe that IPG members are lesser because they didn't.
QF pilot's are not the master race, despite what you have been led to believe by some old 744 Captains.
Leadership comes from the top kiddies.
Chuck
PS: To answer DKs question........Of course they would.
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Gidday Douglas. You wrote:
I have to answer this. Firstly, the pilot councils of the turboprop regionals knew nothing of the Impulse redundancies until after the event. What do you suggest they do? The problem here is that there was no communication or pre-existing relationship between the 2 pilot groups, which is IMHO could have been facilitated by union involvement. But you guys have little union representation, do you? (No, not taking a shot, just asking). This is the whole problem with the industry, whether you are Impulse, QF, Skywest, NJS or whatever. No cohesiveness or cooperation between the pilot groups.
[RANT]The AFAP sits on its fat arse in Melbourne pulling 1% of our gross and leaves the real work to the individual pilot councils. I would rather pay 1% of my gross straight to our hard working Pilot Council, because, IMHO they deserve it. They represent us. And the AFAP wonders why a significant number of its members are looking at alternative representation???[/RANT]
But I run off at a tangent.
Anyhow:
The decision to process the redundant Impulse pilots through the regionals' recruiting process was fast-tracked ahead of external applicants (as you would know) and at a time when we needed more crews. However this was incumbent on the individuals affected actually applying for positions. How many of the 33 applied? I know for a fact that 33 did not come through stage 2 sim and interview, maybe 10. But this may have been as a result of culling at QF P&S, as the grade required was the same as external applicants. Perhaps only 10 applied? The rest? Who knows...
There are varying opinions as to the validity of P&S testing. If I were a cynical person I'd say it's unfair to place a value on a person's employability based solely on their ability to pass a P&S, just the same as selecting them based upon their ability to pay for their endorsement on a B1900/A320/whatever.
It just depends which company you aspire to work for........
Douglas, the person you write of has been a valuable member of our team, and I'll be sorry to see him go when the time comes.
I agree about the cynical outlook Douglas. Anyone who goes to Jetstar from the turboprop regionals will go as external applicants, which is fair enough IMHO. Others will disagree. We are (by design) totally separate companies after all. Progression is something we do hope for, but not necessarily into Jetstar. You overvalue your importance in the big picture.
See, no cohesiveness or cooperation between the pilot groups. We should all be having beers together trying to figure out how we can all beat the Evil Empire at its own game, instead of trying to beat each other..........
Not too many concerns from the Regional mates when these guys found them selves out of work. Out of 33 pilots 1 was taken into Eastern. Of course progression is a big issue for the regional group now. I guess we are ok now there are jets on the VQ books. But then again that would be a cynical outlook.
[RANT]The AFAP sits on its fat arse in Melbourne pulling 1% of our gross and leaves the real work to the individual pilot councils. I would rather pay 1% of my gross straight to our hard working Pilot Council, because, IMHO they deserve it. They represent us. And the AFAP wonders why a significant number of its members are looking at alternative representation???[/RANT]
But I run off at a tangent.
Anyhow:
The decision to process the redundant Impulse pilots through the regionals' recruiting process was fast-tracked ahead of external applicants (as you would know) and at a time when we needed more crews. However this was incumbent on the individuals affected actually applying for positions. How many of the 33 applied? I know for a fact that 33 did not come through stage 2 sim and interview, maybe 10. But this may have been as a result of culling at QF P&S, as the grade required was the same as external applicants. Perhaps only 10 applied? The rest? Who knows...
There are varying opinions as to the validity of P&S testing. If I were a cynical person I'd say it's unfair to place a value on a person's employability based solely on their ability to pass a P&S, just the same as selecting them based upon their ability to pay for their endorsement on a B1900/A320/whatever.
It just depends which company you aspire to work for........
Douglas, the person you write of has been a valuable member of our team, and I'll be sorry to see him go when the time comes.
I agree about the cynical outlook Douglas. Anyone who goes to Jetstar from the turboprop regionals will go as external applicants, which is fair enough IMHO. Others will disagree. We are (by design) totally separate companies after all. Progression is something we do hope for, but not necessarily into Jetstar. You overvalue your importance in the big picture.
See, no cohesiveness or cooperation between the pilot groups. We should all be having beers together trying to figure out how we can all beat the Evil Empire at its own game, instead of trying to beat each other..........
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Hugh, what are your thoughts, and that of your colleagues with regards to the rapid advancement of the Impulse pilots.? Remember less than four years ago they were doing what you are now. Do you see the bypass of your group as reasonable?
Because whilst I know it's ancient history now, I dont believe it's right.
Chimbu, yeah right. So much for your argument. 
Because whilst I know it's ancient history now, I dont believe it's right.
You people who, due more to good luck on the day than any other single thing, jagged jobs in QF seem to believe that IPG members are lesser because they didn't.
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I can't remember whether I've agreed, or disagreed, with Chuckles in the past on other matters, but on this one I certainly agree.
I remember a long retired Ansett captain MANY, MANY years ago expounding a similar view towards Qantas pilots that Chimbu has reiterated today. And for good reason!
I have no reason to believe that Qantas pilots are any different today than they were then!
You're on a hiding to nothing here Keg and Proplever!!
And well deserved it is too!!
I remember a long retired Ansett captain MANY, MANY years ago expounding a similar view towards Qantas pilots that Chimbu has reiterated today. And for good reason!
I have no reason to believe that Qantas pilots are any different today than they were then!
You're on a hiding to nothing here Keg and Proplever!!
And well deserved it is too!!
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Chimbu:
The second part is 100% spot on. The first part doesn't stand up to much scrutiny.
Never in the history of the union movement has a union acted out of anything but it's members best interests...I would go so far as to suggest they would be derilect in their duties to do otherwise.
Nunc est bibendum
Chimbu, don't misrepresent my comments. I've never claimed to be a better driver or more worthy than any other pilot who joined Qantas. I know exactly how lucky I've been. You, like a lot of others who want to paint QF drivers as deserving of being 'done over' (and ultimately long for that day), miss the point of my comments and instead play the man/ You do this using a typical journalistic trick of putting opinions that you attribute to QF drivers out in the ether in the hope that merely reading them will cause people to remember them. Never mind that they are pure b/s for 99% of the drivers that I fly with.
I expect my union to look after my best interests but not just for tomorrow, next week or next year. I want them to look after my best interests looking as long into the future as they can. My comments on page 1 reflect that point. The point I try and make (and make sure you read it this time) is that whilst the IPC may have looked after their short to medium term interests, they may well have been as equally short sighted as AIPA has shown to be in the past. A bunch of people have said that what AIPA have done over the last 10 years has resulted in the goings on of now. What I'm saying is that the actions of the IPG pilots will have serious ramifications in ten (or however many) years time when another pilot group offers to do the flying (that the J* pilot group believed that they had negotiated the company would discuss with them) at less than thier current rates.
I've not no real beef with the decision that the IPG made and unlike proplever, I'll admit that had I a similar gun to my head (and the QF group pilots may well have that as some stage in the future), then I'd do the same thing. However, the significant difference is that I'm not blind as to the possible ramifications for ALL pilot groups in the future. The DJ guys got nailed by PAC Blue, QF guys got nailed by J* because we didn't stand up to Jetconnect, etc, etc over the last ten years. Yeah, AIPA was short sighted. That doesn't mean that the IPG hasn't been as equally short sighted. I can admit AIPAs short sightedness over the last 5(ish) years, can the IPG see the same thing?
For the avoidance of doubt, you made the claim that IPG pilots were considered 'inferior' by QF crews, not me and not any other 'reputable' QF driver on this forum (The Cutest of Borg, Sopwith Pup, Eagle767, Offchocks, Lancer, etc). I disagreed with Proplever raising a similar discussion last time because I didn't feel that it served a purpose if we wanted to unite pilot groups. I said as much and the thread disappeared due to action of a Woomera. Alas, I guess this thread has shown that short sightedness still exists and that unity of purpose of the pilot groups is a harder thing to achieve then I first thought.
Sad really that ultimately, we're all after the same thing.
I expect my union to look after my best interests but not just for tomorrow, next week or next year. I want them to look after my best interests looking as long into the future as they can. My comments on page 1 reflect that point. The point I try and make (and make sure you read it this time) is that whilst the IPC may have looked after their short to medium term interests, they may well have been as equally short sighted as AIPA has shown to be in the past. A bunch of people have said that what AIPA have done over the last 10 years has resulted in the goings on of now. What I'm saying is that the actions of the IPG pilots will have serious ramifications in ten (or however many) years time when another pilot group offers to do the flying (that the J* pilot group believed that they had negotiated the company would discuss with them) at less than thier current rates.
I've not no real beef with the decision that the IPG made and unlike proplever, I'll admit that had I a similar gun to my head (and the QF group pilots may well have that as some stage in the future), then I'd do the same thing. However, the significant difference is that I'm not blind as to the possible ramifications for ALL pilot groups in the future. The DJ guys got nailed by PAC Blue, QF guys got nailed by J* because we didn't stand up to Jetconnect, etc, etc over the last ten years. Yeah, AIPA was short sighted. That doesn't mean that the IPG hasn't been as equally short sighted. I can admit AIPAs short sightedness over the last 5(ish) years, can the IPG see the same thing?
For the avoidance of doubt, you made the claim that IPG pilots were considered 'inferior' by QF crews, not me and not any other 'reputable' QF driver on this forum (The Cutest of Borg, Sopwith Pup, Eagle767, Offchocks, Lancer, etc). I disagreed with Proplever raising a similar discussion last time because I didn't feel that it served a purpose if we wanted to unite pilot groups. I said as much and the thread disappeared due to action of a Woomera. Alas, I guess this thread has shown that short sightedness still exists and that unity of purpose of the pilot groups is a harder thing to achieve then I first thought.
Sad really that ultimately, we're all after the same thing.
Last edited by Keg; 28th Mar 2004 at 15:21.
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Chimbu and Amos, you're absolutely right... there are some Qantas pilots that think they're superior to [insert any other pilot group here]. But you're on you're own "hiding to nothing" if you think there's anywhere near a remotely appreciable number of them, to apply that stereotype to every one of us.
For anyone that missed this:
Well said Hugh
Lancer
For anyone that missed this:
We should all be having beers together trying to figure out how we can all beat the Evil Empire at its own game, instead of trying to beat each other..........
Lancer
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Back to Dan Kelly's original question
Casting my mind back to my G.A. days - and then later to my 1990's days spent "in exile" overseas - I would have to say, "Not I." - UNLESS an issue was made of it, by the pilots and the union representing them - as was the case with CX, and in Australian aviation history, 1989.
Sufficient Australian pilots did NOT apply for the jobs during the Dispute period, to cause the Government to resort to changing Federal Law, to allow non-Australians to fill positions.
This situation was NEVER the case with the Impulse/Jetstar/Virgin Blue/NJS pilots.
It was the case with the QANDOM pilots, though - one of whom is proplever!
When DID you join QANDOM, pl?
"A well deserved hiding" - is that really what you would like to see happen, Dominic?
It may give you some personal satisfaction, but in the overall interest of the future of Australia's airline pilots, is it something you really wish for?
how many of you..would reject an offer from Impulse/Jetstar/Virgin/NJS if you were still flogging around in the bush in a light twin with no chance of being employed by Qantas?
Sufficient Australian pilots did NOT apply for the jobs during the Dispute period, to cause the Government to resort to changing Federal Law, to allow non-Australians to fill positions.
This situation was NEVER the case with the Impulse/Jetstar/Virgin Blue/NJS pilots.
It was the case with the QANDOM pilots, though - one of whom is proplever!
When DID you join QANDOM, pl?
"A well deserved hiding" - is that really what you would like to see happen, Dominic?
It may give you some personal satisfaction, but in the overall interest of the future of Australia's airline pilots, is it something you really wish for?
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Hugh, what are your thoughts, and that of your colleagues with regards to the rapid advancement of the Impulse pilots.? Remember less than four years ago they were doing what you are now. Do you see the bypass of your group as reasonable
However, you have to focus on who the bad guys are here. This is the crux of the problem. QF must be pissing itself, as there's no better way of running a business than by having your labour and business groups separated, and even better still fighting/undercutting one another. This has been QF's modus operandi ever since I can remember. Pretty savvy stuff because it's working.
If you guys spent as much energy putting a unified fight against the Evil Empire as what you do against each other we wouldn't even be here now.
When's the pissup?
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Hugh and Lancer. Very well written posts. I think the overall lesson here is that we all need to get together and orgianise a group that covers all QF affiliates. Whilst ever the infighting is allowed to propogate, as it obviously has been, nothing will be achieved.
Proplever, you could take a leaf out of the books of Hugh and some others and actually post rational adult responces/ debates. I think most people are sick of your ranting. You sound like an old record. I got a real laugh out of your comments on the thread about the runway overrun in Darwin. Chastising someone for " inapropriate comments ". You should give up posting and become a stand up comedian. Something about a pot and a black kettle I think.
Regards DM
Proplever, you could take a leaf out of the books of Hugh and some others and actually post rational adult responces/ debates. I think most people are sick of your ranting. You sound like an old record. I got a real laugh out of your comments on the thread about the runway overrun in Darwin. Chastising someone for " inapropriate comments ". You should give up posting and become a stand up comedian. Something about a pot and a black kettle I think.
Regards DM
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Many years ago, an instructor mate of mine got a job with Qantas. He was only 21 at the time and over the next ten years I lost track of him. At the age of 31 he checked out in command on the classic.
The only reason I knew this was because he wrote a letter at the time to the editor of the AFAP's magazine, aquainting all of us with that fact. At the same time he pointed out that as he now had more time to spare he would be taking an active interest in the affairs of the federation to make sure the Executive didn't "stuff it up."
Needless to say, he didn't win too many friends with that comment. Equally needless to say, he never made any input into the AFAP over the remainder of his successful career with the "rat."
Anyway, some years after his letter to the Feds he was sitting in the sharp end of a classic en route to Hawaii. Halfway across the pond the F/A from the cheap seats in the back made the long trek forward to advise the F/E that one of the toilets in cretin class was u/s. The F/E made some comment along the lines of "What do you expect me to do about it?" He wasn't related to my mate I believe!!
My mate swivelled around smoothly, on his wallet in the right rear back pocket of his trousers, and enquired as to what was going on. When aquainted with the facts his comment was..."you mean, we actually provide toilets for the economy class passengers!!??"
The only reason I knew this was because he wrote a letter at the time to the editor of the AFAP's magazine, aquainting all of us with that fact. At the same time he pointed out that as he now had more time to spare he would be taking an active interest in the affairs of the federation to make sure the Executive didn't "stuff it up."
Needless to say, he didn't win too many friends with that comment. Equally needless to say, he never made any input into the AFAP over the remainder of his successful career with the "rat."
Anyway, some years after his letter to the Feds he was sitting in the sharp end of a classic en route to Hawaii. Halfway across the pond the F/A from the cheap seats in the back made the long trek forward to advise the F/E that one of the toilets in cretin class was u/s. The F/E made some comment along the lines of "What do you expect me to do about it?" He wasn't related to my mate I believe!!
My mate swivelled around smoothly, on his wallet in the right rear back pocket of his trousers, and enquired as to what was going on. When aquainted with the facts his comment was..."you mean, we actually provide toilets for the economy class passengers!!??"
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PL, you're confusing my supposed 'vitriol' with my actual 'sarcasm' - check a dictionary some time (big book, lots of words within)
For the self-appointed moral guardian of QF wage/condition negotiation you spend an inordinate amount of effort slagging VQ/JQ, all the while ignoring Jetconnect - the mob flying 'your' shorthaul/international routes (much sought after at bid time, I believe), wearing 'your' uniforms, in 'your' aircraft, being paid rates far less than your preferred target of abuse.
I'd like you to come clean on exactly what/who happened to p!ss you off so badly re 'Pulse. Why the bias? What dastardly deed was done unto you by a 'Pulse guy/gal? Did they cut your grass socially/sexually? Owe you $'s? Or simply make you feel inadequate?
The naked subjectiveness of your rantings whenever VQ is mentioned has got me concerned that the QF tests must have a bit missing - "can the candidate analyse situations in a dispassionate, objective and rational manner whilst utilising all available sources of information?"
Thankfully there are other QF's on this forum with a far better grip on reality - ever wonder how the silent majority feel about being tarred with the same brush as you and your vocal minority?
PL, Fartsock et al, can I suggest you might try building a bridge? And get over it...
Sod on...
For the self-appointed moral guardian of QF wage/condition negotiation you spend an inordinate amount of effort slagging VQ/JQ, all the while ignoring Jetconnect - the mob flying 'your' shorthaul/international routes (much sought after at bid time, I believe), wearing 'your' uniforms, in 'your' aircraft, being paid rates far less than your preferred target of abuse.
I'd like you to come clean on exactly what/who happened to p!ss you off so badly re 'Pulse. Why the bias? What dastardly deed was done unto you by a 'Pulse guy/gal? Did they cut your grass socially/sexually? Owe you $'s? Or simply make you feel inadequate?
The naked subjectiveness of your rantings whenever VQ is mentioned has got me concerned that the QF tests must have a bit missing - "can the candidate analyse situations in a dispassionate, objective and rational manner whilst utilising all available sources of information?"
Thankfully there are other QF's on this forum with a far better grip on reality - ever wonder how the silent majority feel about being tarred with the same brush as you and your vocal minority?
PL, Fartsock et al, can I suggest you might try building a bridge? And get over it...
Sod on...
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Fluffy, your insults do you no good. I couldn't care less. I pretty much think the same, if not less, of you and all your mates.
The very sorry thing about all this? You don't understand how badly you and your mates have crapped in your own nest, let alone everyone else's.
I don't expect you to run out now and throw in the towel. Really, I never even expected that you would listen to me anyway. Your collective heads are so far up your own @sses you are virtually invisible. Your group has the "take what I can right here right now" mentality which will be your undoing in the end.
One day, perhaps, Australian pilots will wake up and see what is really happenning, see the sort of people they are surrounded by. Then maybe they will do something about it.
My final word.
Promise?
Woomera
The very sorry thing about all this? You don't understand how badly you and your mates have crapped in your own nest, let alone everyone else's.
I don't expect you to run out now and throw in the towel. Really, I never even expected that you would listen to me anyway. Your collective heads are so far up your own @sses you are virtually invisible. Your group has the "take what I can right here right now" mentality which will be your undoing in the end.
One day, perhaps, Australian pilots will wake up and see what is really happenning, see the sort of people they are surrounded by. Then maybe they will do something about it.
My final word.
Promise?
Woomera
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One day, perhaps, Australian pilots will wake up and see what is really happenning, see the sort of people they are surrounded by. Then maybe they will do something about it.
