Qantas FO's and SO's-Jetstar - cont`d

[Kaptin M]

This topic is way too important, imo, and deserves to remain open.

Just a thought - The Oldmeadow Factor still has another strategy to bring into play - the non-Impulse pilots who will be recruited to crew the A320`s. Most likely past AN pilots.

You QF guys (AIPA) have a lot of hard work and decisions that you`ll need to make very swiftly, if you`re going to head this one off at the pass.

[Thumbs up]

quite right

There were around 200 or so A-320 rated pilots at the time of the AN collapse,each with at least 3000 hours on type.

Many,if not most,would be there(J*) in a heartbeat.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Ex AN A320 guys should be hired on their merits alone KM. You sound like they should be given a inside track?

Ex AN drivers have not been impressing several Asian carriers, including the one I work for, so can see no reason for preferential treatment.

Keg

You might be disturbed to know just how much contact and how many meetings the IPG had with AIPA. It was/is not so much a matter of not asking the right questions...perhaps you should question your AIPA rep about the meetings that took place and the carrots offered, if they'll give you an honest answer

Chuck.

[bonvol]

I'm doing some digging on this now. AIPA's stated aim nowis to unite the pilots in the group.

The anecdotal evidence I have so far is that in the past AIPA didn't want to have anything to do with the Impulse blokes.

Any of you Impulse/Jetstar drivers want to give your side?

[Clive]

You're right Kaptin it is indeed way to important. However sadly (for them) I think it is all too late for the boys at QF.

I am convinced that the bulk of the QF guys would be taking comfort in the premise "she'll be right..... can't happen to us.... this is Qantas.... etc, etc". In other words similar rhetoric heard at AN before 2001. The writing is not just on the wall, it has been given a coat of protective sealant by now.

If my experience with the AIPA (re: Jetconnect) is anything to go by then I am sure that this toothless tiger may roar but will not bite. The vast majority of us who went on contract with AWAS in NZ, when it all began in 2000, were pretty sure we were only on a short term contract. The money was good, conditions great (a hallmark of AWAS - rest its soul).

When QF tookover and the pay and conditions went into a flat spin I personally contacted the AIPA to make sure they knew what was happening with what was ostensibly their flying. The silence was deafening and the arrogance frightening. "We are not interested" was the sum of the conversation. Guess with the impending move to management it was hard to be interested in much at that time.

Right again Kap..... the Oldmeadow factor is HUGE and yes I am sure a few desperate souls without work since 2001 will indeed make themselves available. However I must dispute the 200 figure offered by Thumbs Up. The vast majority have well paid jobs at reasonably commutable distances from home to want to return for those kind of pay and conditions.

[proplever]

However sadly (for them) I think it is all too late for the boys at QF.

This is not directed at you Clive, because you make some interesting, relevant points.

But the common thread amongst everyone here is that QF pilots are alone in this problem of reduced conditions.

We ARE NOT ALONE! This affects everyone in the Australian Aviation industry! When will you people wake up and realise what is happenning here!

This cannot be blamed on "market forces" or "greedy management"! This is our fault! And unless we as pilots STOP the rot it, will continue.

People like Impulse not only offering themselves for slave wages, but leaping hand over fist for it is destroying our profession!

When is this going to STOP?

Think I need a nice cuppa tea and a lie down now.....

[drshmoo]

Is it true that NSW Bus drivers get more than a Jet* F/O's? Or Just a furfy.
It seems that if you are a Dash driver for Qlink, if you wish to move onto a Jet (if that is your goal) then Virgin or overseas is your only chance. Will The non Impulse Qlink drivers be eligible for Jetstar or will they encounter that whole double training too expensive problem.

[Queentual]

Some hard facts:

The aircraft refueller, tug driver and foreman earn more that a Jetstar Captain. Maybe this is why they are operating to Avalon etc, so they dont need to use a tug driver. If you get the F/O to drive the tug 2 days/week and refuel the aircraft Jetstar will save a fortune. Good on ya IPG guys for accepting such an embarrasing deal.

[Gnadenburg]

Chimbu Chuckles

I imagine that there are half a dozen airlines that are not impressed with ex-AN 320 drivers. The reason being they lasted under a year at most, before flocking to the better jobs.

Silk Air, Qatar Airways, Gulf Air, EVA & CAL are now not meeting expansion rates, or just parking aircraft, due expending their training resources and not being able to keep crew. Not only is it ex-AN crew voting with their feet though.

Thumbs Up

F/O's or Junior 320 Captains not in Dragonair, Cathay or Emirates would probably want to come home for a Jetstar.

Personally, aswell as in discussion with former AN colleagues abroad, Jetstar not a pretty picture. We were getting paid what a Impulse Captain does almost 10 years ago- as F/O's. Consider inflation and the roaring nineties housing boom. Aswell as the hum-ho nature of domestic flying in an Easyjet ( four sectors a day ) mould.

Somebody else can have a life of financial servitude in Sunbury or Broadmeadows.

And I did hear a third ex-AN 320 pilot just appointed to the Jetstar management team. Aswell as there being 40 Direct Entry slots being available. Jetstar 340's murmurred too.

Still, no matter the creed or colour, most professional pilots abroad shaking their heads at the way Australian pilots-VB,QF,Jetstar-undercut each other so willingly.

[D Rate]

Since when?

fellas,

Since when were the brighest sparks employed by IPG. People slang off at Virgin but the IPG paid for endorsements long before Virgin started charging for the privilege. Maybe that's because many of em' couldn't get into the Q, AN etc.

Having said that they are J Star.

Nobody is gunna unite, whilst there are people who think pilots are overpaid, particularly in Mainline. What the dic*head bean counters don't get is that you do not pay pilots for 99% of the flying, but rather the 1% when it all goes wrong......You get what you pay for

In essence it is done, the IPG think they have it in the bag. You cant blame them, the sad thing is they aren't the brighest globes in the box.

They have as a result of a founded fear(regarding job loss) exposed themselves to management as insecure wannabe Qantas pilots. Let em be, many of them are the guys who wore uniforms around the shops when they worked in GA!!!!

I do not share the notion of an AIPA president who does the negotiation for the pilot group. I don't care how good he thinks he is, sadly pilots should stick to what they do best...fly aircraft. Get an industrial advocate on the payroll of the union, who doesnt have a cyclic every 3 months and who fights because he is paid by the guys he represents.An appropiriately briefed and well versed repsresentative can exert a great deal more pressure than a line Captain who is paid by the company but works for the union because (as a majority of the com do) they want to give something back....

you know I worked in finance, did pretty good analysis of financials..That was a long time ago. Now I fly planes, get an advocate who is a heavy and if the company wants to tender as though we are blue collar, then lets be blue collar..Where is the TWU?


Want to unite the pilot group......Get the Eastern, Southern, and Sunstate guys n girls under one banner and then add the Virgin guys and gals...Do that and we got a stalemate That leads to negotiation.

As i said before we should as pilots do the flying and leave the negotiation to the heavies....Where is the TWU!!!

[Col. Walter E. Kurtz]

What have mainline and their representatives done to defend their position or 'remedy' the situation?

Frankly, the idea of having a National Pilots Union representing ALL Australia's pilots is at least a start; not to mention using 'blue collar' tactics?

[proplever]

Sounds like a good idea, D Rate. Get all the pilots n the country under one banner, except those who have shown an incredible willingness to undercut the final bastion of "decent" pay in this country (read IPG).

Then leave them to rot. What goes 'round as they say....

[Rostov]

Sound's great proplever!
Why don't you start it up!
What'chya gunna call it?
How exciting! Can you be chief negotiator? Pleeeaaase you have such a great way of expressing yourself!!
wow I'm so excited I think I need an asprin. You da man. I think this industry needs you to lead us all!
VOTE 1 PROPLEVER

[Next Generation]

Proploser

You are your own worst enemy.

[Mr. Hat]

Will Pilots ever unite in this country?

It seems impossible just by reading forums of pages and pages of bickering and name calling.

And in the meantime accountants can't believe their luck! Its perfect.

Very sad. But a the end of the day it starts with the bottom levels of GA - (buy 150 hours ICUS) and ends with salaries of professional people being halved. . What other profession has had their money halved in the past 3 years?

The only way it will ever change is if all the name calling and tit for tat ends and people sit down and have a resonable rational conversation with one another.

At the moment if you knock back a flying job for what ever reason you will cause absolutley no problem to anyone apart from yourself. The reason being that there are 1000 people that will do it instead. The reason behind this is that their are too many students being pumped out. The numbers need to be capped. It needs to get a lot harder to get a CPL. Why do bus drivers get paid better than some airline pilots? Because there ain't that many people that want to do the job. How many people go "wow he's a bus driver unreal" not many - a few sure. Lots of people want to fly planes and this is where the problem starts.

If you don't control the student numbers (like in medicine) then you have not a hope in hell of controlling salaries unless of course you have an extreemly united front.

Best of luck guys. We are all watching over here in GA.


My 2 cents worth.
Mr. Hat

[Keg]

Hello Kettle, this is the pot.....you're black!

You've got to be kidding NG.

Originally posted by Next Generation:
Proploser

You are your own worst enemy.

'Independant audits' have shown you to be exactly the same thing- except in your case NG, it's to remind us that you make grand standing, groundless statements and contribute little to the discussion except to 'play the man'. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Just when we think that you've taken the hint, you stick your head up and make a goose of yourself again!

Prop,
Whilst I know the pain, it's time to let the water go under the bridge. If we ostracise any part of the aviation community, we just set ourselves up for the same thing to happen again in the future. We MUST accept that what the IPG did was a result of inaccurate and insufficient information- some through no fault of their own and others by their omission- and resolve now to structure pilot associations in this country so that it can NOT happen again. This means accepting guys like the IPG for what they are- professional pilots.

It's time to get BEHIND the AIPA pres on his efforts. Who knows how the AusALPA will turn out but we can not afford to be alienating other professional pilots in this industry because we'll spiral down to nothing. We already have F/Os on good equipment (like the Dash) earning less than F/As. Let's band together NOW to stop the rot and ensure that we ALL get decent conditions. The more we keep poking our tongues out at each other, the more the management of the airlines laugh themselves stupid at ALL of us.

Lets work together. It's the ONLY hope this profession has in Australia

[?...]

Aviation needs to be changed

I LOVE BEING A PILOT. It makes me feel in despair when I see what's happening in the very place I aspire to be one day.

I will however say that the problems at the top end aren't isolated, in fact it's industry wide with the roots of the problem being from the moment someone wants to be a pilot.

The mentality that is prevalent throughout the industry that perversely intrudes into every pilot's life is that he is dispensable. He is a nobody that CAN AND WILL be replaced with someone that can do it cheaper. This is especially prevalent today and will only get worse with business bottom lines growing in importance.

Mr Hat's got the idea, it's obvious he is seeing the "Big Picture" and unfortunately not too many people do. It's far too easy to be a pilot. I'll go one step closer to a solution. It should be made like most other professions and require a uni degree to begin with. That'll sought out a heap of people way before they start chewing up the precious job positions and the hours they go through until they decide to pack it in, which makes it that much harder for the rest of us. But that's not the end of it.

I recall someone mentioning that a degree in life is all that’s required. Totally true, emotional and social understanding combined with life’s setbacks are required and do provide positive character building. Someone who is given everything and gives nothing is emotionally empty and will never succeed in life anyway. But who can honestly put their hands up and say the set backs that we experience in aviation are remotely justified. It just makes people more pessimistic and desperate to do anything to keep their jobs!

Times have changed. The world is changing and yet the aviation industry and a lot of those that are in it at large in Australia still hold on to that lets get pi$$ed and go bush and do the hard yards just like I had to mentality. A moment of caution here, not to detract and pay any disrespect to those that have done it hard and made it to airlines or even those that were pioneers, Reverend John Flynn as an example. However in today’s world if you want to be a professional airline pilot from now on you should require the groundings that most professions require. That'll definitely sought at least half of the wannabes out. Hell, cap the maximum amount of successful applicants. Just watch how quick the industry shapes up when faced with a shortage of pilots!!!!!! Give it 7 years max and everyone in the top end will have some real bargaining power. What about those that miss out? Well to be blunt about it, maybe amongst other things they should've tried harder at school. You can do anything you put your mind to and I will always stand by that conviction. If you haven't made up your mind that you want to be a pilot by end of school then obviously the romantic idea of a pilot wasn't that high up your agenda in the first place and maybe it should be left to those that have wanted this from their first memory. Keep in mind the long goal and how this will benefit everyone in the end.

Unions. Apparanently they only exist in airlines. Every pilot, especially those in GA should be part of one (for the moment, as past history shows, an in-grained and over powerful union movement can actually have a damaging effect) That'll give them the stance and confidence they need to say, and without fear, that I’m a professional, and as such should earn a full time wage for an honest days work. This should be at all stages in the industry from the very first day a pilot is employed regardless of the fact of his experience.

The above are only a few of my thoughts on the matter and of course a far more detailed look into the industry needs to be made by both the regulators and those in government. Why the hell should those in GA have to crawl their way to the top only to be slapped in the face again just when they think they've made it?!

[proplever]

Well, these's a graphic demonstration. Nice one NG and Rostov. They believe they are making fun of me, and undermining what I say.

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.

Opposite is about right. Fellas, you have made jokes of yourselves. Now how 'bout debating the topic, in a mature and rational way, without playing the man.

Gee, you might even win some respect that way.

[ur2]

Just ask some of the older guys in QF, why they didn't help us during the dispute of 1989.
Their silence was deafening. I guess its all comming home to roost now.

[Lazarus]

Ever read a book called "Animal Farm".

All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.

It seems some still harbour such prejudice beliefs. To unite we must brush these aside. However, to really fix the problem we have to go to the source. While there are too many pilots to fill positions in this industry we'll always have this undercutting happening. The number of cpl trainees needs to be capped. But this is unfair to the flying schools who have worked hard and stayed tight to make a profit. Perhaps a buy back scheme of AOC's (in the same way as the Botany Bay fishing licenses have been reduced). Or limit the issue of new Flying Training AOC's.

There's a number of ways this can be done but only a united workforce can seek to achieve the best result for us all over the long term.

It would also be prejudice to say that how much i get paid determines how professional i am. For example, professional tennis players get paid a lot more than professinal Hockey players but are no less of a professional athlete.

live long and prosper