Tired Pilots
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Scary thing is that I agree with all posts here! Mr Dehavillanddriver I believe sums it up perfectly.
In essence, none of us want to be dangerous when we are at work. We all want to get home alive right? So how do we teach the roster people/CASA.
Just putting them in the flight deck on these trips may not be enough. They are not operating with PNR calcs and other pressures. But I guess you could try.
With CASA I dunno. the safety element of regulations seems to be relaxing to the piont where most of the onus is on the pilot nowadays. Eg FMS and NAS.
As a pilot with an airline that runs you ragged you would generally find it career shortening to speak up alone without the pilot body supporting you. How to talk them into it, or how to talk CASA into understanding. This is the question.
I have always just kinda spoken up. Yes it has both hurt and helped me.
Anyway Happy new year, Hope you all dont have to work like me!!
Blue side up!!
In essence, none of us want to be dangerous when we are at work. We all want to get home alive right? So how do we teach the roster people/CASA.
Just putting them in the flight deck on these trips may not be enough. They are not operating with PNR calcs and other pressures. But I guess you could try.
With CASA I dunno. the safety element of regulations seems to be relaxing to the piont where most of the onus is on the pilot nowadays. Eg FMS and NAS.
As a pilot with an airline that runs you ragged you would generally find it career shortening to speak up alone without the pilot body supporting you. How to talk them into it, or how to talk CASA into understanding. This is the question.
I have always just kinda spoken up. Yes it has both hurt and helped me.
Anyway Happy new year, Hope you all dont have to work like me!!
Blue side up!!
Sorry, I inadvertently deleted my note while doing a small edit...fatigue!
In a nutshell, I said that Stall & Fox were being a bit hard on KM.
If this topic is on the board then expect direct and sometimes blunt views.
KM is right. It is up to each individual to make their own assessment of how safe they are to operate, each and every time you go to the airport.
If you feel intimidated, no amount of posting on this thread will solve your problem. You must deal directly with the issue and if you don't you are indeed a fool. If you get nowhere with a reasonable approach to management/rostering then sterner measures are required.
We have all nodded off at least once in a career even if only for a few seconds or minutes and woken to be the only one awake. It happens.
At least long haul operators are more in tune with the problem and a problem it is when a lot of the younger guys these days are pulling home duty with the kids, getting a couple of hours rest and then heading for the airport at 9.00pm.
Chronic fatigue is not about hours, it is about a dysfunctional lifestyle and this now happens just as easily doing short haul.
DH Driver is spot on, You can overcome tiredness but , fatigue overcomes you.
It would make an excellent expose story on Four Corners or 60 Minutes but I doubt whether they would get much cooperation from the airlines and certainly any participants would not have the anonymity they are provided on this forum. Perhaps they could call it 'Flight of the Zombies'.
Have as safe a New Year as possible down in NAS'ville.
In a nutshell, I said that Stall & Fox were being a bit hard on KM.
If this topic is on the board then expect direct and sometimes blunt views.
KM is right. It is up to each individual to make their own assessment of how safe they are to operate, each and every time you go to the airport.
If you feel intimidated, no amount of posting on this thread will solve your problem. You must deal directly with the issue and if you don't you are indeed a fool. If you get nowhere with a reasonable approach to management/rostering then sterner measures are required.
We have all nodded off at least once in a career even if only for a few seconds or minutes and woken to be the only one awake. It happens.
At least long haul operators are more in tune with the problem and a problem it is when a lot of the younger guys these days are pulling home duty with the kids, getting a couple of hours rest and then heading for the airport at 9.00pm.
Chronic fatigue is not about hours, it is about a dysfunctional lifestyle and this now happens just as easily doing short haul.
DH Driver is spot on, You can overcome tiredness but , fatigue overcomes you.
It would make an excellent expose story on Four Corners or 60 Minutes but I doubt whether they would get much cooperation from the airlines and certainly any participants would not have the anonymity they are provided on this forum. Perhaps they could call it 'Flight of the Zombies'.
Have as safe a New Year as possible down in NAS'ville.
Last edited by VR-HFX; 31st Dec 2003 at 23:04.
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Tired Pilots
It seems pretty straight forward if you work for a good employer. Regulations mixed with common sense. It is the pilots call. If you consider yourself fatigued even when within the CAO's then you call it. It is even more critical Single Pilot IFR.
Remember that there is also the responsibilty for you to obtain adequate rest befoer a duty. Leave the bar early! Remember we are all professionals (well supposed to be).
Remember that there is also the responsibilty for you to obtain adequate rest befoer a duty. Leave the bar early! Remember we are all professionals (well supposed to be).
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I couldnt agree more flying fox,
KM!!! YOU SELF PROCLAIMED GOD OF AVIATION
GET OFF YOUR SOAP BOX .
WHAT PLANET ARE YOU FROM,OBVIOUSLY YOUVE NEVER WORKED IN THE REAL WORLD!!!!.
And to flying fox and others that do come from planet earth you are right it is up to the crew or crews themselves to decide when enough is enough.
Fatigue effects different people in many differrent levels,depending on stress levels,level of general fittness,weather or not you smoke,and of course how much time off you've had and weather you've used this constructively.
I myself work long duty hrs and although getting up around the 12 hr mark Im not at my best I believe I am still capable of getting through the next 2 hr sector to get me home.
To the real world guys cheers and happy flying
To the others
KM!!! YOU SELF PROCLAIMED GOD OF AVIATION
GET OFF YOUR SOAP BOX .
WHAT PLANET ARE YOU FROM,OBVIOUSLY YOUVE NEVER WORKED IN THE REAL WORLD!!!!.
And to flying fox and others that do come from planet earth you are right it is up to the crew or crews themselves to decide when enough is enough.
Fatigue effects different people in many differrent levels,depending on stress levels,level of general fittness,weather or not you smoke,and of course how much time off you've had and weather you've used this constructively.
I myself work long duty hrs and although getting up around the 12 hr mark Im not at my best I believe I am still capable of getting through the next 2 hr sector to get me home.
To the real world guys cheers and happy flying
To the others
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Folks,
The guts of the issue is as KM put it - the law requires that you are not tired/fatigued before you fly. In the absence of a better method, the law requires you to make that judgement.
Importantly, the law makes no distinction about how you got tired/fatigued because it is the end state that is the safety concern.
If there was to be a court case (which, in my opinion, would be extremely difficult for all parties) accusing you of flying when fatigued, your name will be on the summons. Your employer may be charged under division 11 of the Criminal Code with aiding & abetting or inciting the commission of an offence, but you would probably have to give yourself up to get there and that may not be enough (although they will still have your admission!).
So, it is your decision and there is no way your employer can tell you that you are wrong in judging your own physical well-being. That is a very powerful weapon that you are holding and one which you absolutely must only use when true. This is an Excalibur, the misuse of which brings suffering to all.
Firing a shot over their heads just to let them know who holds this powerful weapon is not a clever option. Crying "Wolf" disadvantages everyone, because it may lessen the impact of a real issue and reputations are easily gained but difficult to lose.
To be protected industrially against unfair dismissal, you need to be able to defend the accusation that your declaration of unfitness to fly was unreasonable in all of the circumstances. For example, lifestyle choices and social requirements are irrelevant - you will need to show that you made every reasonable attempt to rest fully and adequately for the relevant duty. Any supporting witnesses will need to be very careful that any evidence they offer suggesting that the roster was fatiguing does not incriminate themselves. And don't go to the cricket/shopping/sailing after being too tired to fly!
Well, that is all very depressing but what about a real fatigue problem? If you have had no warning and everything that you did to prepare yourself for a possible day's work was reasonable, then you pull the trigger in the interests of yourself and those who fly with you or live in your potential wreckage path. If you have had some warning of the duty, then you must analyse that duty and actively manage the problem.
Make sure that you clearly separate the industrial issues from the safety issues, since inconvenience is not the same as fatigue.
Importantly, if you try the duty and assess afterwards that there are likely to be practical problems in less than ideal circumstances, put in a report outlining your assessment and concerns. Support from your colleagues is important but try to ensure that it is independent support rather than anything that can be misconstrued as a conspiracy. Perhaps most importantly of all, attempt to minimise the commercial damage caused by a fatigue issue to the greatest practicable extent - not only is that the reasonable thing for an employee to do, but it provides very useful industrial protection against being labelled a "trouble-maker" or "malcontent".
All of which is fine if you are dealing with reasonable people. If you are not in that situation, then you are not in a stable employment situation anyway and you need to escape, preferably with your reputation intact. Every bad employment situation is different, but I think the truth is that you are largely on your own - my only advice is that you do not expose yourself, be very clear and unemotive about your concerns and resist every hormonal rush to exact revenge and inflict damage, because the only guaranteed victim will be yourself.
Stay Alive,
The guts of the issue is as KM put it - the law requires that you are not tired/fatigued before you fly. In the absence of a better method, the law requires you to make that judgement.
Importantly, the law makes no distinction about how you got tired/fatigued because it is the end state that is the safety concern.
If there was to be a court case (which, in my opinion, would be extremely difficult for all parties) accusing you of flying when fatigued, your name will be on the summons. Your employer may be charged under division 11 of the Criminal Code with aiding & abetting or inciting the commission of an offence, but you would probably have to give yourself up to get there and that may not be enough (although they will still have your admission!).
So, it is your decision and there is no way your employer can tell you that you are wrong in judging your own physical well-being. That is a very powerful weapon that you are holding and one which you absolutely must only use when true. This is an Excalibur, the misuse of which brings suffering to all.
Firing a shot over their heads just to let them know who holds this powerful weapon is not a clever option. Crying "Wolf" disadvantages everyone, because it may lessen the impact of a real issue and reputations are easily gained but difficult to lose.
To be protected industrially against unfair dismissal, you need to be able to defend the accusation that your declaration of unfitness to fly was unreasonable in all of the circumstances. For example, lifestyle choices and social requirements are irrelevant - you will need to show that you made every reasonable attempt to rest fully and adequately for the relevant duty. Any supporting witnesses will need to be very careful that any evidence they offer suggesting that the roster was fatiguing does not incriminate themselves. And don't go to the cricket/shopping/sailing after being too tired to fly!
Well, that is all very depressing but what about a real fatigue problem? If you have had no warning and everything that you did to prepare yourself for a possible day's work was reasonable, then you pull the trigger in the interests of yourself and those who fly with you or live in your potential wreckage path. If you have had some warning of the duty, then you must analyse that duty and actively manage the problem.
Make sure that you clearly separate the industrial issues from the safety issues, since inconvenience is not the same as fatigue.
Importantly, if you try the duty and assess afterwards that there are likely to be practical problems in less than ideal circumstances, put in a report outlining your assessment and concerns. Support from your colleagues is important but try to ensure that it is independent support rather than anything that can be misconstrued as a conspiracy. Perhaps most importantly of all, attempt to minimise the commercial damage caused by a fatigue issue to the greatest practicable extent - not only is that the reasonable thing for an employee to do, but it provides very useful industrial protection against being labelled a "trouble-maker" or "malcontent".
All of which is fine if you are dealing with reasonable people. If you are not in that situation, then you are not in a stable employment situation anyway and you need to escape, preferably with your reputation intact. Every bad employment situation is different, but I think the truth is that you are largely on your own - my only advice is that you do not expose yourself, be very clear and unemotive about your concerns and resist every hormonal rush to exact revenge and inflict damage, because the only guaranteed victim will be yourself.
Stay Alive,
Several years ago my company had a contentious all-night, two-pilot, two/three sector tour of duty which was cose to maximum allowed but still 'legal'. The pilot association sought discussions re a relief pilot due fatigue concerns but were told again "It's legal".
During the 3rd (and longest) sector of said tour of duty, one of our captains realised he was too tired to continue safely to destination, and so diverted to nearest suitable and landed.
The next time that tour of duty operated (within a few days), it HAD A RELIEF PILOT ON BOARD!
The cheers for his integrity, balls, and confidence that he was absolutley right echoed the corridors and bars for weeks!
Not all these stories have sad endings, but it is a shame that it took common sense (and all that cost) to get scheduling to recognise common sense!
During the 3rd (and longest) sector of said tour of duty, one of our captains realised he was too tired to continue safely to destination, and so diverted to nearest suitable and landed.
The next time that tour of duty operated (within a few days), it HAD A RELIEF PILOT ON BOARD!
The cheers for his integrity, balls, and confidence that he was absolutley right echoed the corridors and bars for weeks!
Not all these stories have sad endings, but it is a shame that it took common sense (and all that cost) to get scheduling to recognise common sense!
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
A suggestion for those of you who feel that your employer might subject you to recrimination, is that it might be in YOUR best interests to go and see a Doctor and have a thorough medical check eg. blood tests to make sure that your iron level is okay, haemaglobin level within normal range, etc, and get a written report stating that all of these are fine.
If you feel fatigued, explain to the Doc your symptoms, your lifestyle, and your workstyle. If s/he`s not a DAME, explain to him the significance of flying at altitude (ie. reduced O2 levels), and then ask him what he considers could be the reason for your fatigue.
In other words, make sure that you have your @ss covered, before stepping down at short notice.
If you feel fatigued, explain to the Doc your symptoms, your lifestyle, and your workstyle. If s/he`s not a DAME, explain to him the significance of flying at altitude (ie. reduced O2 levels), and then ask him what he considers could be the reason for your fatigue.
In other words, make sure that you have your @ss covered, before stepping down at short notice.
