Impulse Pilots - What A Deal!
Thread Starter
Ns
Thank you for the frank admission as to the unsatisfactory quality of the initial Virgin Blue training.
Most well aware of the fact but the occassional young buck on pprune lept to the defence of the "14 day/USA" jet training.
If seniority 130 onward to pay for A320 endorsements, perhaps the regulator should have more to say. Approved training facilities etc. In light of the nature of a new start up and the Minimum requirments of 1000hours listed.
Air India pilots undertook a ground course twice the length of the industry standard. They still idled into the ground in Bangalore.
A good endorsement on the 320 very important.
It may serve Amos 2's politics to state otherwise.
Thank you for the frank admission as to the unsatisfactory quality of the initial Virgin Blue training.
Most well aware of the fact but the occassional young buck on pprune lept to the defence of the "14 day/USA" jet training.
If seniority 130 onward to pay for A320 endorsements, perhaps the regulator should have more to say. Approved training facilities etc. In light of the nature of a new start up and the Minimum requirments of 1000hours listed.
Air India pilots undertook a ground course twice the length of the industry standard. They still idled into the ground in Bangalore.
A good endorsement on the 320 very important.
It may serve Amos 2's politics to state otherwise.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In a burrow
Posts: 252
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gnads,
Not having flown the 320 (but have flown A300/310, 767, NG plus a few others I want to forget about, ie 146) the general opinion from ex 320/330/340 pilots now flying the NG, seems to be the 320/330 etc is much easier to manage and operate. They consider the NG a handfull to master.
I am not defending the US Ratings (which the Septics will tell you how good they are, and how much bigger their aviation world is compared to our relatively small market, and it works fine for them etc etc and why does it take Australians 6 months to do a Rating etc) however you seem to harp on the fact that A320 training needs to be more than say, 717 or 737/NG training.
A good endorsement on any type is important, not just the A320.
I think you will find the 717 pilots will find the transition to the bus will go smoothly, without an Air India type Groundschool.
Not having flown the 320 (but have flown A300/310, 767, NG plus a few others I want to forget about, ie 146) the general opinion from ex 320/330/340 pilots now flying the NG, seems to be the 320/330 etc is much easier to manage and operate. They consider the NG a handfull to master.
I am not defending the US Ratings (which the Septics will tell you how good they are, and how much bigger their aviation world is compared to our relatively small market, and it works fine for them etc etc and why does it take Australians 6 months to do a Rating etc) however you seem to harp on the fact that A320 training needs to be more than say, 717 or 737/NG training.
A good endorsement on any type is important, not just the A320.
I think you will find the 717 pilots will find the transition to the bus will go smoothly, without an Air India type Groundschool.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Wybacrik
Posts: 1,190
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gnadenburg is missing my point! probably because my post followed his he assumes I'm having a go at him...not so.
No politics or anything else implied Gnad.
What is implied tho is all the nonsence I'm reading re 717 drivers V 737 drivers V 320 drivers!
Any professional pilot flying any of these a/c will safely transition to any other of these a/c.
Why would anyone suggest otherwise?
No politics or anything else implied Gnad.
What is implied tho is all the nonsence I'm reading re 717 drivers V 737 drivers V 320 drivers!
Any professional pilot flying any of these a/c will safely transition to any other of these a/c.
Why would anyone suggest otherwise?
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Sydney
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What a deal indeed! The Impulse boys falling over themselves to work for less... and they succeeded impressively.
Their negotiators must be slapping each others backs with glee, finally they snubbed their noses at those horrible mainline pilots, and at the same time mightily impressed GD, but doesn't that say it all.
You Impulse blokes have sealed a place for all time in the aviation hall of infamy.
A victory for sure, but most assuredly a pyyric one at that.
Their negotiators must be slapping each others backs with glee, finally they snubbed their noses at those horrible mainline pilots, and at the same time mightily impressed GD, but doesn't that say it all.
You Impulse blokes have sealed a place for all time in the aviation hall of infamy.
A victory for sure, but most assuredly a pyyric one at that.
...mmm... top word that one Thunderbox (Pyrrhic), just diffucult to spell. 
(...It's probaly gone over their heads anyway...can't see the forest for the trees...)
(...It's probaly gone over their heads anyway...can't see the forest for the trees...)
Thread Starter
Just my theory!
Impulse pilots have achieved a few understated positives. Especially considering we are talking about a LCC.
We have digressed so I will outline again.
1- SENIORITY.
2- COMPANY FUNDED CONVERSION ( Congrats to the 8 over 60's ).
3- ORIGINAL FLEET DOUBLED ( quadrupled if options taken ).
It is their baby and I believe they are in a good position to improve their conditions gradually because of this.
The positives revisited.
1 Seniority- a masterstroke. The unity of the pilot group guarranteed considering the nature of seniority and the way senior pilots have looked after junior pilots in the group. It is the senior pilots that have "preserved" their conditions only. A current Impulse F/O will get a 40% payrise as a Capt and the unemployed 1900 have been given a A320 RHS with career progression.
This is remarkable considering what i witnessed at Ansett and what has anecdotally been suggested with Senior QF Long Haul pilots and Senior QF Domestic pilots. " I'm alright Jack" springs to mind.
2 Company paid training. Instilled some value back into the profession.
It is up to the IPG to go further and I implore the following measures. Ensure seniority 130 onward current on 320 or gets the standard of Airbus training the IPG group offered by Airbus/QF. Despite cost.
Absorb some of the market. Whether ex-AN, CX or EK or wherever. This is vitally important for piloting conditions which are on an ever so slight cyclic upswing.
Airbus experience drying up. One operator gave a 20K a year tax free payrise recently because of this. Others may well be parking aircraft when they should be expanding! PRESERVE THIS!
Aswell, your competition in a globalised market ( with the Government continued desire to have open skies etc ) may be the Silk Air's of the world eventually . Don't make it easy for them!
Amos & Basil
Nothing to do with 717 versus NG versus 320. To do with Virgin Blue and what they got away with initially- inexperienced pilots with crap USA endorsements.
I don't believe 320 is an under 20 day endorsement considering the nature of the initial mishaps and the way the full Airbus endorsement programme addresses the odd vulnerabilities of the aircraft.
A digression but the point was more to instill value into the endorsement and not be replacable by Bankstown Boys and a 20 day jet conversion.
Thunderbox
A sore loser? Outmanoeuvred by IPG who now have seniority and a possible 43 jets!
If Dixon canned Impulse you woul not have cared. Another feeding frenzy for promotion with little regard and no assistance for displaced Impulse pilots.
Don't suggest otherwise.
Cadets would be recruited and the Impulse guys left on the street. The demise of Ansett witnessed similar. Aswell as the hypothetical analogy of AN and AirNZ. Air NZ washed their hands without taking any AN employees and IPG feared similar treatment from QF.
How much does a QF Domestic 767 F/O make compared to an Impulse 320 F/O on say, 800 hours?
Impulse pilots have achieved a few understated positives. Especially considering we are talking about a LCC.
We have digressed so I will outline again.
1- SENIORITY.
2- COMPANY FUNDED CONVERSION ( Congrats to the 8 over 60's ).
3- ORIGINAL FLEET DOUBLED ( quadrupled if options taken ).
It is their baby and I believe they are in a good position to improve their conditions gradually because of this.
The positives revisited.
1 Seniority- a masterstroke. The unity of the pilot group guarranteed considering the nature of seniority and the way senior pilots have looked after junior pilots in the group. It is the senior pilots that have "preserved" their conditions only. A current Impulse F/O will get a 40% payrise as a Capt and the unemployed 1900 have been given a A320 RHS with career progression.
This is remarkable considering what i witnessed at Ansett and what has anecdotally been suggested with Senior QF Long Haul pilots and Senior QF Domestic pilots. " I'm alright Jack" springs to mind.
2 Company paid training. Instilled some value back into the profession.
It is up to the IPG to go further and I implore the following measures. Ensure seniority 130 onward current on 320 or gets the standard of Airbus training the IPG group offered by Airbus/QF. Despite cost.
Absorb some of the market. Whether ex-AN, CX or EK or wherever. This is vitally important for piloting conditions which are on an ever so slight cyclic upswing.
Airbus experience drying up. One operator gave a 20K a year tax free payrise recently because of this. Others may well be parking aircraft when they should be expanding! PRESERVE THIS!
Aswell, your competition in a globalised market ( with the Government continued desire to have open skies etc ) may be the Silk Air's of the world eventually . Don't make it easy for them!
Amos & Basil
Nothing to do with 717 versus NG versus 320. To do with Virgin Blue and what they got away with initially- inexperienced pilots with crap USA endorsements.
I don't believe 320 is an under 20 day endorsement considering the nature of the initial mishaps and the way the full Airbus endorsement programme addresses the odd vulnerabilities of the aircraft.
A digression but the point was more to instill value into the endorsement and not be replacable by Bankstown Boys and a 20 day jet conversion.
Thunderbox
A sore loser? Outmanoeuvred by IPG who now have seniority and a possible 43 jets!
If Dixon canned Impulse you woul not have cared. Another feeding frenzy for promotion with little regard and no assistance for displaced Impulse pilots.
Don't suggest otherwise.
Cadets would be recruited and the Impulse guys left on the street. The demise of Ansett witnessed similar. Aswell as the hypothetical analogy of AN and AirNZ. Air NZ washed their hands without taking any AN employees and IPG feared similar treatment from QF.
How much does a QF Domestic 767 F/O make compared to an Impulse 320 F/O on say, 800 hours?
Nunc est bibendum
Gnade, the general feeling amongst the pilot group is that the IPG guys and girls SHOULD have seniority on that aircraft type. The general consensus from AIPA members is that it is a QF 'group' aircraft and so QF group pilots should get first options prior to hiring from outside and that means slotting into the IPG seniorority at the bottom of their pile.
Whats in it for the IPG? Well, they don't decide who gets to fly the thing behind them anyway but if they as a group decide to join AIPA they get mainline seniorority (along with all the regional bretheren as well.) and a good chance of us ALL having a more secure future.
I've spoken to several COM members over the last few years about getting coverage of ALL QF group pilots by AIPA but the excuses have been thick on the ground. Well, we pay dearly for that lack of representation now with below 'standard' (read DJ) conditions on the aircraft. Sure, there will be a lot of IPG pilots who do well out of this with a good pay rise but had we been working together on this one then the result could have been a LOT better.
I don't blame the IPG like fartsock and others have done. I can understand entirely their position. People have been known to do some strange stuff when there is a gun to your head. I reckon this was certainly the case in the case of Jetstaf and the IPG.
It is in QFs best interests to keep the pilot groups 'at' each other and seperated- both from a 'cost' perspective and a 'bargaining' perspective. It is in ALL of OUR best interests to be represented under the one banner so that NO ONE has the gun put to their head ever again!
Whats in it for the IPG? Well, they don't decide who gets to fly the thing behind them anyway but if they as a group decide to join AIPA they get mainline seniorority (along with all the regional bretheren as well.) and a good chance of us ALL having a more secure future.
I've spoken to several COM members over the last few years about getting coverage of ALL QF group pilots by AIPA but the excuses have been thick on the ground. Well, we pay dearly for that lack of representation now with below 'standard' (read DJ) conditions on the aircraft. Sure, there will be a lot of IPG pilots who do well out of this with a good pay rise but had we been working together on this one then the result could have been a LOT better.
I don't blame the IPG like fartsock and others have done. I can understand entirely their position. People have been known to do some strange stuff when there is a gun to your head. I reckon this was certainly the case in the case of Jetstaf and the IPG.
It is in QFs best interests to keep the pilot groups 'at' each other and seperated- both from a 'cost' perspective and a 'bargaining' perspective. It is in ALL of OUR best interests to be represented under the one banner so that NO ONE has the gun put to their head ever again!
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The dark corner of the bar
Posts: 351
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thunder Box. You seemed to have missed the point. The IPG have acheived better conditions for all of us. Along with good security and most importantly, jobs for all of the guys waiting at the end of the list. Certainly a good result with 100% unity within the pilot group. Show me where that exists any where else in this country at the moment!!
Your complaining only falls on deaf ears. I would suggest you move on and start taking a look at your own situation instead of running others down.
I didnt see any one worried about the guys that were made redundant when they became unemployed. No special meetings and no posts railing against the injustice of it all. So the result is specialy sweet for these blokes.
Gnadenburg. Well put.
Cheers DM
Your complaining only falls on deaf ears. I would suggest you move on and start taking a look at your own situation instead of running others down.
I didnt see any one worried about the guys that were made redundant when they became unemployed. No special meetings and no posts railing against the injustice of it all. So the result is specialy sweet for these blokes.
Gnadenburg. Well put.
Cheers DM
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In a burrow
Posts: 252
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Keg,
If the Jetstar pilots do the same hours as the DJ pilots, they may well come out in front due to no overtime at DJ.
Time for DJ crews to push for overtime in the next EBA, or be left at the bottom.
If the Jetstar pilots do the same hours as the DJ pilots, they may well come out in front due to no overtime at DJ.
Time for DJ crews to push for overtime in the next EBA, or be left at the bottom.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
For a QF pilot whose command prospects could be directly influenced by Jet Star, you certainly hold a well balanced view on the matter, Keg, whilst - imo - AIPA have stuck their collective heads in the sand (or somewhere above their knees), by not allowing QANTAS regional pilots to join.
This has cost the AIPA junior membership dearly, in terms of their future prospects.
Keg's final paragraph tells why:
I would suggest that the "one banner" for pilot representation would not include AIPA, based on past and present performances.
It surprises me that Jet Star will purportedly not be recruiting ex-Ansett A320 C&T people - and wait to see if, in actuality, it WILL be so. I can understand that just as Virgin Blue resisted taking too many ex-AN 737 pilots, following Ansett's collapse - to avoid introducing an Ansett "culture" into VB - Jet Star would similarly do likewise. However, as FatEric noted,
Could it be another case of QF management telling porkies??
As a matter of interest, is the "Seniority List" one that has been agreed to (in writing) by both parties? Or is it likely that Jet Star management are going to present their own, at an opportune time?
This has cost the AIPA junior membership dearly, in terms of their future prospects.
Keg's final paragraph tells why:
It is in QFs best interests to keep the pilot groups 'at' each other and seperated- both from a 'cost' perspective and a 'bargaining' perspective. It is in ALL of OUR best interests to be represented under the one banner so that NO ONE has the gun put to their head ever again!
It surprises me that Jet Star will purportedly not be recruiting ex-Ansett A320 C&T people - and wait to see if, in actuality, it WILL be so. I can understand that just as Virgin Blue resisted taking too many ex-AN 737 pilots, following Ansett's collapse - to avoid introducing an Ansett "culture" into VB - Jet Star would similarly do likewise. However, as FatEric noted,
How many direct entry type rated people did AN need to employ back when the bus arrived. Bubkis. Zero. Donut. Zip. Nada. The big donut.
As a matter of interest, is the "Seniority List" one that has been agreed to (in writing) by both parties? Or is it likely that Jet Star management are going to present their own, at an opportune time?
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Pittsburgh, USA
Posts: 601
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Impulse will be just fine.....
I can't help but laugh when I consider the number of people that consider Impulse pilots less than themselves. They have families to feed, let them get on with it!
The Impulse company and even the old merged Oxley had quite a few highly experienced former RAAF and Royal Flying Doc', together with some young blood with lots of PNG or remote area experience and good educational backgrounds.
Whether anyone wishes to admit it or not, aviation in Australia suffered for ALL pilots after 1989. I was there, I saw it, didn't like it and I left.
Qantas has persisted in producing more cadets in the process with no real command experience and to this day considers them more qualified than what comes through the trenches at GA.
Is it any wonder that someone who sees an opportunity outside of this in Australia, would jump at the chance?
Is it any wonder with the lack of humility demonstrated by mature and experienced QF staff, even on these posts, that others would ask Impulse to, "stick it to yer"?
I don't quite see how anyone who wants to live in Australia and make enough to feed a family can do it in GA. I think any Australian wife that can balance a family budget on the meagre salaries I have seen deserves sainthood.
Enough said! Don't shoot the messenger. Impulse is the message to QF unions and crews that they can be replaced, the pilots are merely messengers. Unity and professional conduct includes a dose of humility, and finally the view of the airline industry going forward from this crossroad could be disastrous if not handled better than in the past by QF mainline crew.
The Impulse company and even the old merged Oxley had quite a few highly experienced former RAAF and Royal Flying Doc', together with some young blood with lots of PNG or remote area experience and good educational backgrounds.
Whether anyone wishes to admit it or not, aviation in Australia suffered for ALL pilots after 1989. I was there, I saw it, didn't like it and I left.
Qantas has persisted in producing more cadets in the process with no real command experience and to this day considers them more qualified than what comes through the trenches at GA.
Is it any wonder that someone who sees an opportunity outside of this in Australia, would jump at the chance?
Is it any wonder with the lack of humility demonstrated by mature and experienced QF staff, even on these posts, that others would ask Impulse to, "stick it to yer"?
I don't quite see how anyone who wants to live in Australia and make enough to feed a family can do it in GA. I think any Australian wife that can balance a family budget on the meagre salaries I have seen deserves sainthood.
Enough said! Don't shoot the messenger. Impulse is the message to QF unions and crews that they can be replaced, the pilots are merely messengers. Unity and professional conduct includes a dose of humility, and finally the view of the airline industry going forward from this crossroad could be disastrous if not handled better than in the past by QF mainline crew.
Last edited by Chris Higgins; 13th Dec 2003 at 09:27.
Thread Starter
Well there is another positive that has appeared. The ugly step sister has just become desirable to the AIPA. At long last!
Integration of IPG and QF mainline pilots would be a Dixon nightmare. Defeating the purpose of LCC.
QF has the world's most expensive map folders in the form of S/O's. The nigtmare scenario would be everytime an LCC slot becomes available an expensive map folder is given the position. He is then in receit of expensive training, as is his replacement- the double whammy effect.
Airbus check & training expertise is not the realm of ex-Ansett. There is a lot of Australian expertise on the international market. Whoever anyway, I hope to see IPG preserve the market and recruit these people as opposed to being forced to take QF.
Kapt M. Who are you kidding. VB is so Ansett/TAA! The culture you avoided is purely post 89.
Integration of IPG and QF mainline pilots would be a Dixon nightmare. Defeating the purpose of LCC.
QF has the world's most expensive map folders in the form of S/O's. The nigtmare scenario would be everytime an LCC slot becomes available an expensive map folder is given the position. He is then in receit of expensive training, as is his replacement- the double whammy effect.
Airbus check & training expertise is not the realm of ex-Ansett. There is a lot of Australian expertise on the international market. Whoever anyway, I hope to see IPG preserve the market and recruit these people as opposed to being forced to take QF.
Kapt M. Who are you kidding. VB is so Ansett/TAA! The culture you avoided is purely post 89.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Beside the Pool
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Care factor ZERO!
cry cry cry Impulse pilots are bad ....boo hoo..... grow up loosers it's not the drivers fault you can thank the management at QF for the decisions at hand
Why are Impulse pilots so bad? What about the Virgin guys? they too are all part and parcle of the low cost push in Australia!
What abotu the easy jet drivers , jet blue, ryan air? cry cry cry all ya like girls it's not the Impulse guys fault
Aviation is changing world wide it's a fact DEAL WITH IT
Wanna get high?
Why are Impulse pilots so bad? What about the Virgin guys? they too are all part and parcle of the low cost push in Australia!
What abotu the easy jet drivers , jet blue, ryan air? cry cry cry all ya like girls it's not the Impulse guys fault
Aviation is changing world wide it's a fact DEAL WITH IT
Wanna get high?
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Brisvegas
Posts: 243
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dont talk too much fact there towlie you might upset the apple cart mate.
Management devise a pay scale..it's the pilot's fault for accepting it.
Management devise a rostering protocol...it's the pilot's fault for accepting it.
Management decide on a new aircraft type...it's the pilot's fault flying it.
Yes it's always the pilot's fault isn't it "entrenched types". Some of you guys started off as cadets 20 years ago with nothing more than a few 100 hours. Many of you got jobs by default, not exceptional qualification. What on earth qualifies you to come in here pontificating about procedural correctness and appropriate wage scales. The FACT of the matter is GENTLEMEN (and I use that term very losely at times) is that put in the same position, you all would work for exactly the same money as Virgin or Pornstar.
All this rubbish talk of lowering industry standards is so futile it defies comprehension. Where do you get off talking such cr@p? What gives you the qualification to make any assumptions on the welfare of another group of pilots or their families? Let me answer that for you...NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Whether it was us or ANYONE else, EXACTLY the same conditions would have been offered. In the perfect world no-one would accept and possibly force the price higher ( I repeat in the perfect world). Am I happy about it? of course not. But am I going to sit back and change careers while some little upstart takes my job? Not lilkely mate!!!!!!!!!
Instead of prescribing a neolithic solution to a modern day problem, why not be a little inventive and come up with something original. As in other parts of the world, the entrenched minority in a bid to protect their little bit of turf have effectively given birth to the current regime by default. Thats right lads, so accept you share of the responsibilty and wake up to the 21st centuary. You hepled create what we have today.
Management devise a pay scale..it's the pilot's fault for accepting it.
Management devise a rostering protocol...it's the pilot's fault for accepting it.
Management decide on a new aircraft type...it's the pilot's fault flying it.
Yes it's always the pilot's fault isn't it "entrenched types". Some of you guys started off as cadets 20 years ago with nothing more than a few 100 hours. Many of you got jobs by default, not exceptional qualification. What on earth qualifies you to come in here pontificating about procedural correctness and appropriate wage scales. The FACT of the matter is GENTLEMEN (and I use that term very losely at times) is that put in the same position, you all would work for exactly the same money as Virgin or Pornstar.
All this rubbish talk of lowering industry standards is so futile it defies comprehension. Where do you get off talking such cr@p? What gives you the qualification to make any assumptions on the welfare of another group of pilots or their families? Let me answer that for you...NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Whether it was us or ANYONE else, EXACTLY the same conditions would have been offered. In the perfect world no-one would accept and possibly force the price higher ( I repeat in the perfect world). Am I happy about it? of course not. But am I going to sit back and change careers while some little upstart takes my job? Not lilkely mate!!!!!!!!!
Instead of prescribing a neolithic solution to a modern day problem, why not be a little inventive and come up with something original. As in other parts of the world, the entrenched minority in a bid to protect their little bit of turf have effectively given birth to the current regime by default. Thats right lads, so accept you share of the responsibilty and wake up to the 21st centuary. You hepled create what we have today.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Sydney
Posts: 152
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gnadenburg, you don't seem to understand the situation with second officers do you!!!. The only reason they are there is to increase the available flight and duty times. British Airways do this with 2 x Captains and 2 x First Officers. Qantas do the same flight with 1 Capt, 1 FO and 2 second officers a much cheaper option. Cathay have a different mix. And the last time I checked, Cathay second officers were paid much more than Qantas SO's.
Sure, we could say that second officers are now getting paid more than A320 Capts, so lets reduce their wage, but why !
I have been flying for 25 years, and have been looking at this forum for about 3 years. One thing never ceases to amaze me is how self destructive we pilots are as a group. There seems to be a competition about how low we can reduce our wages to. We should be united about maintaining our pay scales, not reducing them. Airline management sees this and is only to happy to oblige.
You don't see this destructive attiutude in other professions. Were are the accountants or solicitors saying I'll do his job for 1/2 the current wage.
I think its time for people to grow up, stop making stupid posts about how one airline is better than the other and to start contructive posts about how to maintain the status of flying as a profession, not just a job driving busses.
Sure, we could say that second officers are now getting paid more than A320 Capts, so lets reduce their wage, but why !
I have been flying for 25 years, and have been looking at this forum for about 3 years. One thing never ceases to amaze me is how self destructive we pilots are as a group. There seems to be a competition about how low we can reduce our wages to. We should be united about maintaining our pay scales, not reducing them. Airline management sees this and is only to happy to oblige.
You don't see this destructive attiutude in other professions. Were are the accountants or solicitors saying I'll do his job for 1/2 the current wage.
I think its time for people to grow up, stop making stupid posts about how one airline is better than the other and to start contructive posts about how to maintain the status of flying as a profession, not just a job driving busses.
Last edited by MrWooby; 14th Dec 2003 at 09:26.
Kaptin M
For a person who is based offshore, you make many comments about all the changes in aviation in Australia. One thing that stands out about your posts is that you are unaware of what is happening behind the scenes. AIPA definitly does not have it's head in the sand and is working in a very determined manner to achieve pilot slots in Jetstar for its members. It's not easy when the deal with IPG was already done before QF management announced that it was looking into the viability of starting up a LCC.
For a person who is based offshore, you make many comments about all the changes in aviation in Australia. One thing that stands out about your posts is that you are unaware of what is happening behind the scenes. AIPA definitly does not have it's head in the sand and is working in a very determined manner to achieve pilot slots in Jetstar for its members. It's not easy when the deal with IPG was already done before QF management announced that it was looking into the viability of starting up a LCC.
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Sydney
Posts: 413
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well good on AIPA.
A bit after the horse has bolted though and just goes to show where AIPA stands in the eyes of management, ie irrelevant.
They didn't even bother to consult them, just did the deal with the IPG and that was that. Now AIPA goes cap in hand to try and resurrect something. I wish them luck but wont hang by the skin of my chinny chin chin for good news.
A bit after the horse has bolted though and just goes to show where AIPA stands in the eyes of management, ie irrelevant.
They didn't even bother to consult them, just did the deal with the IPG and that was that. Now AIPA goes cap in hand to try and resurrect something. I wish them luck but wont hang by the skin of my chinny chin chin for good news.
GB,
Jake-the-muss told us (repeatedly!!) that he was in the thick of the negotiations and mainline crewing of the LCC was a done deal. Is this an example of AIPA NOT having its' head in the sand?
Jake-the-muss told us (repeatedly!!) that he was in the thick of the negotiations and mainline crewing of the LCC was a done deal. Is this an example of AIPA NOT having its' head in the sand?
Nunc est bibendum
No wiz, this was one of the guys expecting that QF would operate in good faith (as they did when setting up AO) and negotiate with it's main pilot body to operate similar aircraft again and stating as such. I thought it was a little strong to 'insist' that QF drivers would crew it and although I hoped for it, I would never say 'us or no one'.
All that said, lets sum up where we are and work out how to move forward.
1. IPG pilots have the new carrier at current rates. Lots of guys get promotion and a pay rise to pay rates that are substantially below both DJ and QF pilots.
2. IPG Captains pay remains for the most part below QF F/O rates. No 767 F/O I've come across I'd classify as 'over paid'!
3. AIPA is negotiating for coverage of the IPG and for the expansion slots on JetStar. No one knows how successful they will be. GD reckons that 'everything' is on the table but whilst it may be on the table, JetStar management is probably primed to say 'no'.
4. Without 'coverage' now and into the future, QF, DJ and any other airline that happens along retains the ability to play off the respective pilots group against each other. I'm sure that the IPG woud LOVE to crew the A380 for (say) a pay rise of 50% over what they are getting now. It'd make perfect sense for them to pick up the 'holy grail' of interational flying and get a massive pay rise in the process. See the world, make heaps more than we currently make and 'do over' those slugs, short sighted fools in mainline. A fine theory until QF management do the same thing to the IPG in a decades time.
5. How do we achieve this and still give everyone a fair shot without disenfranchisng a particular group because they have been 'locked out'? I haven't the foggiest but at least we know the destination. If we don't define the destination, we haven't a hope of getting anywhere and THAT has been the biggest problem of the last decade with Pilot Associations in Australia (AIPA included). We have had NO destination. We have been like the pre federation states, all scrabbling for bragging rights and one upping each other as best we could. If this had been for BETTER pay and conditions then I'd be happy but alas....
Ah well. We'll see how this one pans out.
To the IPG pilots (and others) that rejoice in seeing QF drivers (AIPA, whoever) squirm, just remember that in ten years time you could be on the recieving end. Don't be naieve and think that it can't happen to you- especially when you are currently accusing QF crews of the same naivety over the last decade. This affects us all.
Maybe I was 'slow' in getting the message. Maybe I didn't push my elected members in AIPA hard enough. No more. I'm sure that now AIPA would be welcoming calls from ANY pilot member of Eastern, Sunstate and Impulse.
Regards,
All that said, lets sum up where we are and work out how to move forward.
1. IPG pilots have the new carrier at current rates. Lots of guys get promotion and a pay rise to pay rates that are substantially below both DJ and QF pilots.
2. IPG Captains pay remains for the most part below QF F/O rates. No 767 F/O I've come across I'd classify as 'over paid'!
3. AIPA is negotiating for coverage of the IPG and for the expansion slots on JetStar. No one knows how successful they will be. GD reckons that 'everything' is on the table but whilst it may be on the table, JetStar management is probably primed to say 'no'.
4. Without 'coverage' now and into the future, QF, DJ and any other airline that happens along retains the ability to play off the respective pilots group against each other. I'm sure that the IPG woud LOVE to crew the A380 for (say) a pay rise of 50% over what they are getting now. It'd make perfect sense for them to pick up the 'holy grail' of interational flying and get a massive pay rise in the process. See the world, make heaps more than we currently make and 'do over' those slugs, short sighted fools in mainline. A fine theory until QF management do the same thing to the IPG in a decades time.
5. How do we achieve this and still give everyone a fair shot without disenfranchisng a particular group because they have been 'locked out'? I haven't the foggiest but at least we know the destination. If we don't define the destination, we haven't a hope of getting anywhere and THAT has been the biggest problem of the last decade with Pilot Associations in Australia (AIPA included). We have had NO destination. We have been like the pre federation states, all scrabbling for bragging rights and one upping each other as best we could. If this had been for BETTER pay and conditions then I'd be happy but alas....
Ah well. We'll see how this one pans out.
To the IPG pilots (and others) that rejoice in seeing QF drivers (AIPA, whoever) squirm, just remember that in ten years time you could be on the recieving end. Don't be naieve and think that it can't happen to you- especially when you are currently accusing QF crews of the same naivety over the last decade. This affects us all.
Maybe I was 'slow' in getting the message. Maybe I didn't push my elected members in AIPA hard enough. No more. I'm sure that now AIPA would be welcoming calls from ANY pilot member of Eastern, Sunstate and Impulse.
Regards,