Extend Class E concepts to ground operations
Thread Starter
Extend Class E concepts to ground operations
Don't you just hate it when the sun's a shining, the birds are singing, and you're eager to get out there and go for a fly in your Piper Warrior or Cessna 182. But because your plane resides at an aerodrome with a control tower, you have to be subjected to the frustrations and incovenience of requesting a taxi clearance!
"That's completely unnecessary" you think to yourself. You've got a pair of eyes. You know where you want to go and you know how to get there. If some other aircraft gets in the way you can either go another way or heck you could even taxi on to the grass and go around the ******. "See and Avoid. Thats all I need!".
So here is my proposal to free up all our controlled aerodromes.
Insead of IFR and VFR, you have Heavy and Light.
Heavy aircraft, either because of their gross weight or tyre pressure are restricted to the sealed taxiways and are subject to taxi clearances.
Those that are light with low tyre pressures may taxi where ever they want when they want.
Because VMC is defined as 5000 m visibility in the air below 10,000 ft and it is expected of airline crew flying at say 250kts to be able to see and avoid in those conditions (it would take 39 seconds to reach a target 5000 m away, less if they are contributing to the rate of closure) it is only fair to define Ground VFR on a linear scale. Say the usual taxi speed is 20 kts in a straight line, that would equate to a visibility of 380 metres.
So when the visibility is greater than 380 metres heavy aircraft when given a taxi clearance, must not only comply with the instructions given to them, they must also keep a lookout and are responsible for the avoidance of other uncontrolled light aircraft as well.
These light aircrft need not make any radio transmissions to broadcast their intentions. Infact we know how congested those SMC frequencies can be so we will actively discourage them from making any calls at all.
If the light aircraft comes across a heavy aircraft that's in the way they can simply choose an alternate taxiway or better still, simply taxy up on the grass and go around it. Or I suppose you can just back off and follow behind. Whatever. You have the freedom because you don't need a clearance. You can look out for yourself.
When it comes to crossing the active runway, the same principle applies. The light aircraft looks in the direction of the oncoming landing and departing traffic and makes his or her own assessment of the traffic situation and manoeuveres accordingly. Again the concept of "See and Avoid" should apply.
I suppose you'd have to call the tower to report "Ready" though.
You must keep in mind too that the heavy aircraft are going to be restricted to the taxiways which are depicted quite well on the aerodrome chart, so you are encouraged to avoid these published "airways" as much as possible. Runway Holding Points are another area to be avoided untill the very last.
I think we could prove to the world that the Principles of Class E airspace need not be restricted to the skies. And if we can do that, then we would be able to go to the USA and enjoy the same freedom there. Surley if it works here it must be adopted there. I am sure they would cringe if they knew that they were different to us.
This is just the begining. Can anyone else add anything constructive to this proposal?
"That's completely unnecessary" you think to yourself. You've got a pair of eyes. You know where you want to go and you know how to get there. If some other aircraft gets in the way you can either go another way or heck you could even taxi on to the grass and go around the ******. "See and Avoid. Thats all I need!".
So here is my proposal to free up all our controlled aerodromes.
Insead of IFR and VFR, you have Heavy and Light.
Heavy aircraft, either because of their gross weight or tyre pressure are restricted to the sealed taxiways and are subject to taxi clearances.
Those that are light with low tyre pressures may taxi where ever they want when they want.
Because VMC is defined as 5000 m visibility in the air below 10,000 ft and it is expected of airline crew flying at say 250kts to be able to see and avoid in those conditions (it would take 39 seconds to reach a target 5000 m away, less if they are contributing to the rate of closure) it is only fair to define Ground VFR on a linear scale. Say the usual taxi speed is 20 kts in a straight line, that would equate to a visibility of 380 metres.
So when the visibility is greater than 380 metres heavy aircraft when given a taxi clearance, must not only comply with the instructions given to them, they must also keep a lookout and are responsible for the avoidance of other uncontrolled light aircraft as well.
These light aircrft need not make any radio transmissions to broadcast their intentions. Infact we know how congested those SMC frequencies can be so we will actively discourage them from making any calls at all.
If the light aircraft comes across a heavy aircraft that's in the way they can simply choose an alternate taxiway or better still, simply taxy up on the grass and go around it. Or I suppose you can just back off and follow behind. Whatever. You have the freedom because you don't need a clearance. You can look out for yourself.
When it comes to crossing the active runway, the same principle applies. The light aircraft looks in the direction of the oncoming landing and departing traffic and makes his or her own assessment of the traffic situation and manoeuveres accordingly. Again the concept of "See and Avoid" should apply.
I suppose you'd have to call the tower to report "Ready" though.
You must keep in mind too that the heavy aircraft are going to be restricted to the taxiways which are depicted quite well on the aerodrome chart, so you are encouraged to avoid these published "airways" as much as possible. Runway Holding Points are another area to be avoided untill the very last.
I think we could prove to the world that the Principles of Class E airspace need not be restricted to the skies. And if we can do that, then we would be able to go to the USA and enjoy the same freedom there. Surley if it works here it must be adopted there. I am sure they would cringe if they knew that they were different to us.
This is just the begining. Can anyone else add anything constructive to this proposal?
Last edited by Blip; 27th Nov 2003 at 12:31.
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Good thinking Blip. A "D" Class aerodrome is basically like a GAAP aerodrome and you don't need an taxi clearance there. Probably heaps more movements at a GAAP too. Does a Taxi Clearance for a VFR flight give the Tower controller time to draw your outbound track on a map or something? Nope. As far as they are concerned, you get no real service apart from Take-Off Clearance and let them know when you are out of the airspace. Umm am I missing something?
I don't wish to be simplistic but flying is a simple game until we start putting unessesary restrictions on the act of aviating.
TBT
I don't wish to be simplistic but flying is a simple game until we start putting unessesary restrictions on the act of aviating.
TBT
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To prove that you really are keen to promote a safer airspace, get your local Country Women's Association to lobby the government for free installation of ADSB units (with display) in all light aircraft.
TBT: You're a boofhead.
TBT: You're a boofhead.
Last edited by Col. Walter E. Kurtz; 27th Nov 2003 at 10:36.
Sprucegoose
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Blip, I think you missed a bit, LIGHTS ON at all times the aircraft is in motion.........
Of course then I will be able to see you and get out of the way!!
Would'nt want my heavy holding you up now would we?
Cheers, HH.
Of course then I will be able to see you and get out of the way!!
Would'nt want my heavy holding you up now would we?
Cheers, HH.
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Thanks for the insult Colonel.
May I be dismissed SIR?
What part of my thoughts on the matter, made you believe you should call me a boofhead in public???
TBT
May I be dismissed SIR?
What part of my thoughts on the matter, made you believe you should call me a boofhead in public???
TBT
Thread Starter
Sorry. I should have spelled out that the concept would apply to all controlled aerodromes including Sydney, Melbourne etc After all, isn't that the end goal after all the stages are implimented (E above C and D)?
If it is so safe to impose Class E airspace principles on airbourne B737s with a TAS of some 390 kts at 10,000 ft (250 kts IAS), it must surely follow that it would be "safe" to subject them to uncontrolled unannounced traffic while taxiing at 20 kts.
If that doesn't make sense to you, you are probably finally seeing the point!
(You might need to read that last line again.)
If it does make sense and you've been nodding your head while reading my first post...
PS Make that 390 a 290!. Must improve my proof reading. Thanks HH.
If it is so safe to impose Class E airspace principles on airbourne B737s with a TAS of some 390 kts at 10,000 ft (250 kts IAS), it must surely follow that it would be "safe" to subject them to uncontrolled unannounced traffic while taxiing at 20 kts.
If that doesn't make sense to you, you are probably finally seeing the point!
(You might need to read that last line again.)
If it does make sense and you've been nodding your head while reading my first post...
PS Make that 390 a 290!. Must improve my proof reading. Thanks HH.
Last edited by Blip; 27th Nov 2003 at 13:57.
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Hey TBT, this part:
I suggest you re-read Blip's post S-L-O-W-L-Y .
Re public insults, do the words 'brain dead morons of the AFAP/ALPA/Civil Air' ring any bells, or is that your way of expressing affection and admiration?
Good thinking Blip. A "D" Class aerodrome is basically like a GAAP aerodrome and you don't need an taxi clearance there. Probably heaps more movements at a GAAP too. Does a Taxi Clearance for a VFR flight give the Tower controller time to draw your outbound track on a map or something? Nope. As far as they are concerned, you get no real service apart from Take-Off Clearance and let them know when you are out of the airspace. Umm am I missing something?
I don't wish to be simplistic but flying is a simple game until we start putting unessesary restrictions on the act of aviating.
I don't wish to be simplistic but flying is a simple game until we start putting unessesary restrictions on the act of aviating.
Re public insults, do the words 'brain dead morons of the AFAP/ALPA/Civil Air' ring any bells, or is that your way of expressing affection and admiration?
Sprucegoose
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Hmmmmm 390 knots @ 250 indicated at 10, 000 feet?
The best I can get is around 300 knots, sure gotta get me one of those.........
HH
The best I can get is around 300 knots, sure gotta get me one of those.........
HH
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Sorry Colonel,
I've been a bad boy and will go into the closet once again to give myself a good spanking..
I didn't mean to offend anyone in Civil Air or the others. I just couldn't think of anything less insulting that would be a clear reflection of some of their tactics.
My 87 year old father doesn't want me to go flying because he listened to Ted on the ABC this morning. What a way to stimulate aviation in Australia by a massive scare campaign. They are a pack of .........(I'll keep my comments to myself).
QF are still basically on time by the way.
I've been a bad boy and will go into the closet once again to give myself a good spanking..
I didn't mean to offend anyone in Civil Air or the others. I just couldn't think of anything less insulting that would be a clear reflection of some of their tactics.My 87 year old father doesn't want me to go flying because he listened to Ted on the ABC this morning. What a way to stimulate aviation in Australia by a massive scare campaign. They are a pack of .........(I'll keep my comments to myself).
QF are still basically on time by the way.
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Great post Blip but as part of the 'industry consultation' that you've asked for I'd like to propose the following:
You state that SMC frequencies are congested so here's a suggestion.
Let's issue a new procedure - it's called a STAR (Standard Taxi Around Route) - it's only issued to heavies and gives them instructions on how to get from the gate to the holding point and also on how to get from the runway back to the gate after landing. This way we can issue each heavy one STAR and then cut down on radio congestion.
We can then publish advice to LIGHT aircraft pilots telling them to avoid taxyways used as part of the STARS but we won't actually give them any charts showing where these STARS go!
You state that SMC frequencies are congested so here's a suggestion.
Let's issue a new procedure - it's called a STAR (Standard Taxi Around Route) - it's only issued to heavies and gives them instructions on how to get from the gate to the holding point and also on how to get from the runway back to the gate after landing. This way we can issue each heavy one STAR and then cut down on radio congestion.
We can then publish advice to LIGHT aircraft pilots telling them to avoid taxyways used as part of the STARS but we won't actually give them any charts showing where these STARS go!
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By the way if we are going to extend NAS to the taxiways, all references to control frequencies should be removed from all charts to "encourage" the lighties to keep quiet. That way all aircraft can completely rely on see and avoid with none of those things like controlled separation, and situational awareness through monitoring other aircrafts reports, to annoy them.
In fact forget ADSB being fitted out. It should be mandatory that all light aircraft be fitted out with a six stack cd player, as they need to listen to something now its been decided that listening to control frequencies is unneccessary.
This whole thing is laughable. I really am glad I work in the middle east, where E airspace has been written off as a bad joke. Here you are either in controlled airspace and fully separated, or you are outside controlled airspace and you get DTI, regardless of how big or fast you are. Seems simple and seems safe.
In fact forget ADSB being fitted out. It should be mandatory that all light aircraft be fitted out with a six stack cd player, as they need to listen to something now its been decided that listening to control frequencies is unneccessary.
This whole thing is laughable. I really am glad I work in the middle east, where E airspace has been written off as a bad joke. Here you are either in controlled airspace and fully separated, or you are outside controlled airspace and you get DTI, regardless of how big or fast you are. Seems simple and seems safe.
Bottums Up
TimeBombTed
Methinks you might be a timebomb after all.
May I direct your attention to the NAS Reference Guide, page 12, ABC of Airspace
Class D Aerodomes are listed as
Bugga my brown dog, not a GAAP amongst them!
May I direct your attention to the NAS Reference Guide, page 12, ABC of Airspace
Class D Aerodomes are listed as
- Albury
- Alice Springs
- Coffs Harbour
- Hamilton Island
- Hobart
- Launceston
- Mackay
- Maroochydore
- Rockhampton
- Tamworth
Bugga my brown dog, not a GAAP amongst them!
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Blip,
Excellent post. I am sure various Smiths are considering your suggestions seriously for stage 2c.
It would seem obvious that full implementation of your suggestions would save 70 million dollars and revive the entire GA industry!
Excellent post. I am sure various Smiths are considering your suggestions seriously for stage 2c.
It would seem obvious that full implementation of your suggestions would save 70 million dollars and revive the entire GA industry!