Faking log book flying hours
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a) Time above overcast or at night in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) is not counted as instrument flight;
I can find no reference to a requirement for a ‘visible horizon’
Vis isn’t an argument, you can see city / town lights for 50 nm.
I know what your saying, and I agree. It’s technically IMC with no moon. But is it legally IMC?
I think not and if thats the case, a) says you cant log it.
P.S. Compressor Stall: Can I have a better ref: for the CAR definition? You know how bad that book is to find stuff.
P.P.S: I'm doing my first solo cross country in a C150 above 3000ft on a moonless night. I can log that as I.F. in my log book?
Mack
G'day AV8r
A couple of good points you raise.
Whether or not (no pun intended
) it's IMC is not the issue. Reference the definition of IMC above. You don't have to be in <5/3km cloud/smoke/dustwhatever. You can be 100m from a towering Cu on a Darwin day in the wet at 24000 feet and see the horizon out the other window 181 nm away and this is IMC.
We are talking about IF time. IMC is irrelevant.
Even if there is 181 nm vis so long as there are no reference points out the window and you are poling by reference to instruments, then you are I.F. flying.
I am not sure who first said "visible horzon" but I take that to mean one of a number of possible external reference points. They may be a sliver of moon, the dull lights of ADL in the distance, or as happened 3 nights ago, tha aurora streaking up from the southern horizon. If you have any one of these, then you are not in accordance with the CAO 40.1. reference above.
Now if that is on your first solo nav on a black moonless night in the desert with no town lights on the horizon where you are heading (an highly unlikely scenario) then I fail to see why that would not be IF for the cruise.
That link you provide is General Guidance. It does not override the CARs nor the CAOs. They are the law.
It should be noted that 90% of pilots won't be flying in an area in which these conditions occur. Even for the number like me who fly at night regularly in areas where it is very common, the conditions are still the exception rather than the rule. For those who will suddenly start logging all their night hours as IF time, think again. It will look as suspicious as flying day IFR out of Alice and loggin bucketloads of IF.
CS
P.S. those definitions are at the start of the CARs - just after the index. Do what I do and download the CAR and CAO pdfs from www.casa.gov.au then CTRL-F to find words. MUCH easier!
A couple of good points you raise.
Whether or not (no pun intended
) it's IMC is not the issue. Reference the definition of IMC above. You don't have to be in <5/3km cloud/smoke/dustwhatever. You can be 100m from a towering Cu on a Darwin day in the wet at 24000 feet and see the horizon out the other window 181 nm away and this is IMC.We are talking about IF time. IMC is irrelevant.
Even if there is 181 nm vis so long as there are no reference points out the window and you are poling by reference to instruments, then you are I.F. flying.
I am not sure who first said "visible horzon" but I take that to mean one of a number of possible external reference points. They may be a sliver of moon, the dull lights of ADL in the distance, or as happened 3 nights ago, tha aurora streaking up from the southern horizon. If you have any one of these, then you are not in accordance with the CAO 40.1. reference above.
Now if that is on your first solo nav on a black moonless night in the desert with no town lights on the horizon where you are heading (an highly unlikely scenario) then I fail to see why that would not be IF for the cruise.
That link you provide is General Guidance. It does not override the CARs nor the CAOs. They are the law.
It should be noted that 90% of pilots won't be flying in an area in which these conditions occur. Even for the number like me who fly at night regularly in areas where it is very common, the conditions are still the exception rather than the rule. For those who will suddenly start logging all their night hours as IF time, think again. It will look as suspicious as flying day IFR out of Alice and loggin bucketloads of IF.
CS
P.S. those definitions are at the start of the CARs - just after the index. Do what I do and download the CAR and CAO pdfs from www.casa.gov.au then CTRL-F to find words. MUCH easier!
Last edited by compressor stall; 23rd Nov 2003 at 07:41.
Flying around the North Sea at night I'm frequently in legal VMC and still flying IF. There's nearly always lots of cloud layers & reduced vis. around here.
Last edited by Tinstaafl; 24th Nov 2003 at 07:36.
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I battled the leans a number of times flying in heavy smoke with no reference to the horizon or ground. Didnt log it as IF though as was technically in VMC. Wonder how the blokes in Canada or some such place log time in white out conditions (ie still VMC)? How about in a high performance jet climbing at a high angle with no reference to the horizon either out the front or side windows? or even in a bug smasher but taking off into the sun, hence on instruments?
I bet the guys who've died by disorientation in VMC would argue that they could/should have been logging those last minutes as IF.
From looking at bunches of resumes online it seems that people tend to have between 5 and 10% logged as IF, regardless of their location in the world. Not exactly a conclusive study but it seems like a fair estimate. Anyone here fall outside this range?
I bet the guys who've died by disorientation in VMC would argue that they could/should have been logging those last minutes as IF.
From looking at bunches of resumes online it seems that people tend to have between 5 and 10% logged as IF, regardless of their location in the world. Not exactly a conclusive study but it seems like a fair estimate. Anyone here fall outside this range?
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At the end of the day, log what you like if you can sleep at night and I’ll give the ‘no horizon’ some consideration as well. (Think of all that I.F. I could have logged over the years.)
The reference I supplied up a few posts is a ‘guideline’ but I think points to the intent of the regs.
However, I particularly like 18wheelers definition:
Why can’t Canberra write in plain un-ambiguous wording in all the regs?
You all know full well, with 10 pilots discussing a reg, there will 10 different opinions and that’s not good enough. Lawyers must have a field day in court with this stuff.
Definitions, guidelines, CASA interpretations and three reg books all saying different things about the same reg. I find it incredible.
We recently had a discussion about the use of Special Alt Min and the equipment required to use it, 5 pilots....5 opinions.
The books are full of these types of examples.
Still, it beats working for a living.
Mack
The reference I supplied up a few posts is a ‘guideline’ but I think points to the intent of the regs.
However, I particularly like 18wheelers definition:
If there's no horizon, so you have to use instruments to determine attitude, that's IF time as far as I can see.
You all know full well, with 10 pilots discussing a reg, there will 10 different opinions and that’s not good enough. Lawyers must have a field day in court with this stuff.
Definitions, guidelines, CASA interpretations and three reg books all saying different things about the same reg. I find it incredible.
We recently had a discussion about the use of Special Alt Min and the equipment required to use it, 5 pilots....5 opinions.
The books are full of these types of examples.
Still, it beats working for a living.
Mack
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Interesting...
Hey guys,
Great thread you have going here.
Being 17 and still in school - I have only recently started my flight training on spare weekends. I have a whole X (yes, single figure!) hours - ALL of which are VFR!
At the moment, I'm supposed to be studying for a Chemistry exam which I have tomorrow afternoon - but being a young aviation nut, I'm stuck here surfing PPRuNe.
One day, I'll be up there with you guys.
If only I could have logged my classroom hours...
Cheers,
Soulman.
Great thread you have going here.
Being 17 and still in school - I have only recently started my flight training on spare weekends. I have a whole X (yes, single figure!) hours - ALL of which are VFR!
At the moment, I'm supposed to be studying for a Chemistry exam which I have tomorrow afternoon - but being a young aviation nut, I'm stuck here surfing PPRuNe.
One day, I'll be up there with you guys.
If only I could have logged my classroom hours...
Cheers,
Soulman.
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If only Chemistry was a 'breath of fresh air'...
And if only I could see the horizon - instead of referring to my notes all the time!
Now where was I... Ahh, that's right!
It's all too much.... 
Soulman.
And if only I could see the horizon - instead of referring to my notes all the time!
Now where was I... Ahh, that's right!
The laboratory preparation of Carbon Dioxide
CaCO3 (s) + 2HCl (aq) -> CaCl2 (aq) + CO2 (g) + H2O (l)
CaCO3 (s) + 2HCl (aq) -> CaCl2 (aq) + CO2 (g) + H2O (l)
Soulman.
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Hi all,
Great thread, I don't normally post, as you can see by how many posts I've done but I have a few questions.
Does an aircraft have to be IFR to log IF time or can it be NVFR, for single pilot ops? In the situation of scooting around CB's in skydiving It's a little bit hard to judge the distance of a cloud to an accuracy of 100m. If thats the case can I log IF without needing a licenced pilot sitting next to me and to be wearing foggles ( that is me wearing them!).
Sky's full of Monkeys, getting paid in bananas.
Great thread, I don't normally post, as you can see by how many posts I've done but I have a few questions.
Does an aircraft have to be IFR to log IF time or can it be NVFR, for single pilot ops? In the situation of scooting around CB's in skydiving It's a little bit hard to judge the distance of a cloud to an accuracy of 100m. If thats the case can I log IF without needing a licenced pilot sitting next to me and to be wearing foggles ( that is me wearing them!).
Sky's full of Monkeys, getting paid in bananas.
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Yeah,
not only would I hate to look/fly like crap in front of a prospective employer, but I doubt I'd be able to live with myself knowing that I'd forged experience that wasn't and not knowing how much actual experience I had.
Besides, there's a sense of achievement involved every time you cross a 100 hourly... meaning, say, when you cross 500TT, then 500 CMD, then 750, etc...
Agree?
520.
not only would I hate to look/fly like crap in front of a prospective employer, but I doubt I'd be able to live with myself knowing that I'd forged experience that wasn't and not knowing how much actual experience I had.
Besides, there's a sense of achievement involved every time you cross a 100 hourly... meaning, say, when you cross 500TT, then 500 CMD, then 750, etc...
Agree?
520.
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Quite seriously, isn't there a Flight Level at which VMC becomes IMC???
Used to be FL210........
Cold as a witches tit in ANC right now. The "A.B." was specky the other night though!!!!!
Used to be FL210........
Cold as a witches tit in ANC right now. The "A.B." was specky the other night though!!!!!
No. There is - or was, not sure under the new changes - a FL where VFR is no longer available and all flights must be IFR. That's NOT the same as VMC vs IMC.
And even if it was IMC, that does not mean that you are necessarily in cloud and flying IF. You can be IMC and still be in clear air.
For Skymonkey's situation, you are in IMC 100m from the nearest cloud in CTA above Edmonton but you can see the sky, the ground and the DZ. You cannot log I.F. in this situation.
For Skymonkey's situation, you are in IMC 100m from the nearest cloud in CTA above Edmonton but you can see the sky, the ground and the DZ. You cannot log I.F. in this situation.
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Soulman
CaCl2 (aq) + CO2 (g) + H2O (l) - Calcium Cloride, Carbon Dioxide and water - sounds like a fizzy drink that's good for your bones!!!
Now, if you could blend in around 70% C2H6O, it would probably be a top seller to old codgers at PPRuNe Bashes!!!!!!!!!
Woomera
CaCl2 (aq) + CO2 (g) + H2O (l) - Calcium Cloride, Carbon Dioxide and water - sounds like a fizzy drink that's good for your bones!!!
Now, if you could blend in around 70% C2H6O, it would probably be a top seller to old codgers at PPRuNe Bashes!!!!!!!!!
Woomera