Faking log book flying hours
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People logging dodgy time is only part of the problem.
The people that think they can judge a pilots ability by the number of hours theyve got is also part of the problem.
Hours dont equal experience, nor does experience necessarily make a good pilot.
The people that think they can judge a pilots ability by the number of hours theyve got is also part of the problem.
Hours dont equal experience, nor does experience necessarily make a good pilot.
swh,
The RFDS specified xxx hours IFR, not xxx hours IF. I suspect that's the cause of the confusion. It's bloody easy to have 800 hrs IFR after a couple or few thousand TT. Would have rather lower IF time though.
The RFDS specified xxx hours IFR, not xxx hours IF. I suspect that's the cause of the confusion. It's bloody easy to have 800 hrs IFR after a couple or few thousand TT. Would have rather lower IF time though.
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i knew a bloke years ago that penned in about 500 hrs on navajo and chieftain only to do a check ride in one for a job interview.
only trouble was he not only didnt have 500hrs on type he hadnt flown it at all.
DOHHH
CHEERS
only trouble was he not only didnt have 500hrs on type he hadnt flown it at all.
DOHHH
CHEERS
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Hate to think some dishonest so and so would leap-frog me to a job through falsifying hours. Lie at your own peril.... 
Here, here!
Sadly though it is more prevalent and I know of 3 such cases. Karma has it's way.
A pilots' logbook used to be the backbone of the aviation culture... a good honest logbook went without saying and its entries were respected. A prospective employer would take a good look at it, where you were trained, put you in an aircraft for a quick look and roughly know what to expect.
The people that think they can judge a pilots ability by the number of hours theyve got is also part of the problem. Hours dont equal experience, nor does experience necessarily make a good pilot
... to a point TH (given Sims etc) but how can it be part of the problem?
What other guage do you suggest to go by?
MORE hours generally meant MORE exposure to all the variables and hence a certain wisdom is obtained. That wisdom can not be substituted, no matter how you look at it.
I can at least sleep easy, knowing I can account for each hour in my two logbooks... with plenty of stories at the bar... as I drift of into sleep
Here, here!Sadly though it is more prevalent and I know of 3 such cases. Karma has it's way.
A pilots' logbook used to be the backbone of the aviation culture... a good honest logbook went without saying and its entries were respected. A prospective employer would take a good look at it, where you were trained, put you in an aircraft for a quick look and roughly know what to expect.
The people that think they can judge a pilots ability by the number of hours theyve got is also part of the problem. Hours dont equal experience, nor does experience necessarily make a good pilot
... to a point TH (given Sims etc) but how can it be part of the problem?
What other guage do you suggest to go by?
MORE hours generally meant MORE exposure to all the variables and hence a certain wisdom is obtained. That wisdom can not be substituted, no matter how you look at it.
I can at least sleep easy, knowing I can account for each hour in my two logbooks... with plenty of stories at the bar... as I drift of into sleep
Tinstaafl,
You are incorrect, the current information is as below.
To quote the RFDS employment page
The only KSCs in the last round of appointments in relation to IFR time was 5 renewals, and 180 hrs IF. No specification on how much time IFR flight planned.
You are incorrect, the current information is as below.
To quote the RFDS employment page
The only KSCs in the last round of appointments in relation to IFR time was 5 renewals, and 180 hrs IF. No specification on how much time IFR flight planned.
PILOTS
The large RFDS fleet is comprised of Beechcraft Kingairs, Pilatus PC XII and Titian C404. Positions are generally advertised in national newpapers, and competition for the limited number of opportunities is strong. The general skills and experience required are as follows:
Australian commercial pilots licence.
Current command instrument rating (multi-engine) with two renewals.
2000 hours as pilot-in-command.
1000 hours as pilot-in-command of a multi-engined aircraft.
200 hours night operations as pilot-in-command.
Pilots with turbo-prop experience preferred.
A sound work ethic.
Demonstatable maturity and stability of employment.
Excellent communication skills.
A philosophy sympathetic to the ideals of the RFDS.
An empathy for the bush and its people.
The large RFDS fleet is comprised of Beechcraft Kingairs, Pilatus PC XII and Titian C404. Positions are generally advertised in national newpapers, and competition for the limited number of opportunities is strong. The general skills and experience required are as follows:
Australian commercial pilots licence.
Current command instrument rating (multi-engine) with two renewals.
2000 hours as pilot-in-command.
1000 hours as pilot-in-command of a multi-engined aircraft.
200 hours night operations as pilot-in-command.
Pilots with turbo-prop experience preferred.
A sound work ethic.
Demonstatable maturity and stability of employment.
Excellent communication skills.
A philosophy sympathetic to the ideals of the RFDS.
An empathy for the bush and its people.
There wouldn’t be too many pilots in Australia with 800hrs IFR time.
Nearly 1,100hours, according to those rules posted above.
I'm pretty average as an airline driver, there's plenty of people with a lot more than me.
Nearly 1,100hours, according to those rules posted above.
I'm pretty average as an airline driver, there's plenty of people with a lot more than me.
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Nearly 1,100hours, according to those rules posted above.
I'm not a jet jock but interested in how long it took you to accrue those sort of IF hours, and if you could run me / us through a typical flight were you would accrue IF flight time.
Many thanks.
Mack.
In February 2004 it'll be twenty years flying aeroplanes for me.
Most of the flying I've done for about five & a half years is all 747 stuff, about half at night. A lot of that has been at night (along with about another five years of night freight in Metro's & Citations) and a fair chunk of that has been with no horizon at all.
There's also timesthat we'll spend a few hours flying through solid cloud in the day.
It all adds up.
For example, the last flight I did was all night and the only time I could see the horizon was breifly after take-off and about ten minutes before landing. There was no Moon, clud cover, etc, and it was a nearly seven hour flight.
Most of the flying I've done for about five & a half years is all 747 stuff, about half at night. A lot of that has been at night (along with about another five years of night freight in Metro's & Citations) and a fair chunk of that has been with no horizon at all.
There's also timesthat we'll spend a few hours flying through solid cloud in the day.
It all adds up.
For example, the last flight I did was all night and the only time I could see the horizon was breifly after take-off and about ten minutes before landing. There was no Moon, clud cover, etc, and it was a nearly seven hour flight.
Quite so, swh. I wasn't very clear in my intent: To highlight that replies were mixing IFR time with IF time. I chose a poor ie incorrect example to illustrate this. Oh well... 
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For example, the last flight I did was all night and the only time I could see the horizon was breifly after take-off and about ten minutes before landing. There was no Moon, clud cover, etc, and it was a nearly seven hour flight.
This is exactly my point.
Whether you have an horizon or not is irrelevant. You are in VMC.
The spirit of the rule regarding the logging of IF time is you need to be in either actual or simulated cloud.
You are either flying through cloud or you are wearing a simulated cloud vision device.
Night flying with no horizon is not technically loggable as I.F. time.
Mack
Last edited by Av8r; 22nd Nov 2003 at 04:37.
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Night time
How about this! A certain chappie was logging night time at our local home airport, during which time - three months - there were no runway lights at the airfield. The flights were day into little Island airstrips, but some how he managed to continue to log night without a problem. Incredible guy!
It was supposedly known by the pilot group within that company, but nothing said of course. Anyway he secured his ATPL no doubt based on these phantom night hours.
And CASA were so near, and yet so far!
It was supposedly known by the pilot group within that company, but nothing said of course. Anyway he secured his ATPL no doubt based on these phantom night hours.
And CASA were so near, and yet so far!
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IFR vs IF
Hi all
There seems to be a whole lot of confusion over IFR vs IF. AV8r your response to 18-wheelers claim of 1100hrs ( in turn a response to the 800hr IFR requirement) seems to have blurred the line yet again. 18-wheels to me seems to indicate he has 1100hrs IFR (I stand to be corrected), which could have been accrued amongst as little as 1500hrs. In fact I can think of 1 person here in NZ who had exactly those numbers. He got a multi IFR job at 400TT,bang 1500TT, 1100hrs of it IFR.
To give a Kiwi perspective, our rule states " a flight during which the A/C is piloted solely by reference to instruments without external reference points " Night flight most certainly can be IF on a moonless night with no visual horizon,and why not? If you're not keeping upright(& navigating) by looking out the window at the horizon surely, you must be on instruments and therefore flying/logging IF?
You guys must have a whole lot of uncurrent long-haul pilots under present wording if they must be in cloud to log IF. When does a 747 driver fly in cloud? 5-10 mins on arrival/departure,perhaps some in the cruise over the equator. Will that little see them maintain 6hrs IF in 90 days?
ps Please beat the whinging poms tonight
Thump
There seems to be a whole lot of confusion over IFR vs IF. AV8r your response to 18-wheelers claim of 1100hrs ( in turn a response to the 800hr IFR requirement) seems to have blurred the line yet again. 18-wheels to me seems to indicate he has 1100hrs IFR (I stand to be corrected), which could have been accrued amongst as little as 1500hrs. In fact I can think of 1 person here in NZ who had exactly those numbers. He got a multi IFR job at 400TT,bang 1500TT, 1100hrs of it IFR.
To give a Kiwi perspective, our rule states " a flight during which the A/C is piloted solely by reference to instruments without external reference points " Night flight most certainly can be IF on a moonless night with no visual horizon,and why not? If you're not keeping upright(& navigating) by looking out the window at the horizon surely, you must be on instruments and therefore flying/logging IF?
You guys must have a whole lot of uncurrent long-haul pilots under present wording if they must be in cloud to log IF. When does a 747 driver fly in cloud? 5-10 mins on arrival/departure,perhaps some in the cruise over the equator. Will that little see them maintain 6hrs IF in 90 days?
ps Please beat the whinging poms tonight
Thump
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Guys I’m being pedantic here and probably splitting hairs.
Plenty of guys at work log ‘dark night’ as I.F. and there is no visible horizon and you are flying the aircraft with sole reference to the instruments. Granted. But it’s still technically VMC.
Is that flight time logging to the letter of the law?
You tell me.
http://www.casa.gov.au/avreg/fcl_lic/flight_time.htm refers.
Mack
Plenty of guys at work log ‘dark night’ as I.F. and there is no visible horizon and you are flying the aircraft with sole reference to the instruments. Granted. But it’s still technically VMC.
Is that flight time logging to the letter of the law?
You tell me.
http://www.casa.gov.au/avreg/fcl_lic/flight_time.htm refers.
Mack
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Just to blur the fuzzy lines a little further...
What happens when you are within the vertical or lateral minimum distances from cloud below 3000'amsl/1000'agl (ie 1500m horizontal or 1000ft vertical), but not actually IN the cloud?
You're not VMC, so are you in IMC?
What happens when you are within the vertical or lateral minimum distances from cloud below 3000'amsl/1000'agl (ie 1500m horizontal or 1000ft vertical), but not actually IN the cloud?
You're not VMC, so are you in IMC?
Bottums Up
AV8R
I think you're making an assumption or two regarding IF requiring actual or simulated cloud. All it really requires is to be in conditions less than VMC, which in turn requires a certain clearance from cloud or less than 5km viz below A100 or 8km viz above A100.
At night with no horizon it could easily be argued that viz is effectively reduced. Additionally some where in the regs it states that VFR flight is impractical above F200, or thereabouts. Therefore in an aircraft above that level, one can log IF time.
CAO 40.1.0, states in part:
On the matter of BIC hours. I worked years ago in an earlier life with such a chap. I was somewhat surprised to bump into him years later at a CASA sponsored seminar, particularly as he was a CASA FOI! 
At night with no horizon it could easily be argued that viz is effectively reduced. Additionally some where in the regs it states that VFR flight is impractical above F200, or thereabouts. Therefore in an aircraft above that level, one can log IF time.
CAO 40.1.0, states in part:
10.9 Instrument flight time may be logged by the pilot monitoring or providing input to the autopilot/auto-stabilisation equipment when it is engaged or by the pilot manually manipulating the controls when the aircraft is flown by reference to instruments under either actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
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Cooked log books are by no means a novelty in Aviation. Back in the ‘old’ Ansett we had a… chap who, before he joined AN, went to New Guinea, where he never got a permanent position with any operator. He flew the (very) odd short charter he was able to scrounge… but came back to Melbourne 12 months later magically with 1200 hours in his log book for those 12 months. (I know that’s more than you’re permitted to fly in 12 months, but as I said, his was a truly ‘magic’ log book.)
It might come as no surprise to many that the same gentleman (re)joined the ‘new’ Ansett in that year we cannot mention here, where he became a legend in his own lunchbox, enjoying quite few nicknames, one of them the same as a wonderful Australian children’s movie of the 70s about a pelican, bad weather and a male child.
The tradition would seem to go back even further if the following is anything to judge by. It’s taken from the very early annals of Pprune.
If you want to read the whole story, go to the Pprune Humour Page or Click here.
It may be saying a lot about the ‘dumbing down’ of our society that these creatures nowadays fly ‘VH-BIC’ when in days gone by their flying ‘experience’ was known as ‘'P-51 time', the P-51 being both the North American Mustang and a popular model of Parker Pen which many a child received as a high school graduation gift. Hence 'Parker Pen hours’, or in the military, ‘F4 time’, the ‘F4’ being the Phantom, hence ‘Phantom Hours’.
It might come as no surprise to many that the same gentleman (re)joined the ‘new’ Ansett in that year we cannot mention here, where he became a legend in his own lunchbox, enjoying quite few nicknames, one of them the same as a wonderful Australian children’s movie of the 70s about a pelican, bad weather and a male child.
The tradition would seem to go back even further if the following is anything to judge by. It’s taken from the very early annals of Pprune.
He carefully adopted a ponderous tone. "Yea Sire, whenever possible, a wise Master Cameleer will entrusteth his autocamels only to the hands of cameleers whose skills he knoweth well. What better way to learneth the true worth of any aspiring cameleer than first to observeth him as an effoh calling warnings of oncoming potholes and falling rocks? For it is written that many cameleers who willst seeketh to joineth Thy caravan will cometh not from the caravan routes, but from the tribe of Parker bin Pehn."
"This tribe of Parker bin Pehn. We knowest it not."
"Ah, Sire, the Parker bin Pehn beith a secretive sect and one which plyeth its trade behind tightly closed tent flaps with but a single quill. Many an unwary Master of Cameleers hast fallen foul of this widely scattered tribe. They willst enter Thy house glibly, bearing stirring testimonials from masters who in fact knewest them not. These richly bound scrolls willst speak of wondrous deeds on caravans they have travelled - but, alas! they willst have travelled these routes but only in their dreams."
"This tribe of Parker bin Pehn. We knowest it not."
"Ah, Sire, the Parker bin Pehn beith a secretive sect and one which plyeth its trade behind tightly closed tent flaps with but a single quill. Many an unwary Master of Cameleers hast fallen foul of this widely scattered tribe. They willst enter Thy house glibly, bearing stirring testimonials from masters who in fact knewest them not. These richly bound scrolls willst speak of wondrous deeds on caravans they have travelled - but, alas! they willst have travelled these routes but only in their dreams."
It may be saying a lot about the ‘dumbing down’ of our society that these creatures nowadays fly ‘VH-BIC’ when in days gone by their flying ‘experience’ was known as ‘'P-51 time', the P-51 being both the North American Mustang and a popular model of Parker Pen which many a child received as a high school graduation gift. Hence 'Parker Pen hours’, or in the military, ‘F4 time’, the ‘F4’ being the Phantom, hence ‘Phantom Hours’.
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Interesting replies all. Can anyone please tell me the date that the last advertisement for RFDS pilots was placed in "The Australian" newspaper. I am sure it was in the last three months but I need the correct date. Thanks.
So night flying in a total black no cloud moonless night is not loggable as instrument flight time? Try flying a jet by looking outside the front window then, and unless you are competent at unusual attitude recoveries solely by reference to instruments, you and your unhappy passengers will surely die.
So night flying in a total black no cloud moonless night is not loggable as instrument flight time? Try flying a jet by looking outside the front window then, and unless you are competent at unusual attitude recoveries solely by reference to instruments, you and your unhappy passengers will surely die.
AV8R
I am surprised the meek and modest BIK has not piped up here yet.
There was a thread in which he posted all the relevant regs a while ago to show that flight out of cloud with no horizon etc can be categorised as IMC. However I have just done a search, found the thread, but BIK has deleted his posts!
Reference 1. CAR 1988. Definitions.
There was an AIP supplement (the blue ones) about filling in logbooks saying that clear nights with no horizon was not loggable as IMC, but as pointed out, they do not override the CARs. That AIP supp does not exist any more.
I flew last night in the desert. Clear night, no moon at all (a thin slither rose about 0400. For much of the time there was no discernable horizon at any stage at all - even with all the lights off (which I tried briefly).
I might be clear of cloud but I was poling the a/c with sole reference to instruments and without external reference points.
CS
Capt Claret, was that you into perth last night (21/11)? Just heard you changing off freq as txferred onto it.
There was a thread in which he posted all the relevant regs a while ago to show that flight out of cloud with no horizon etc can be categorised as IMC. However I have just done a search, found the thread, but BIK has deleted his posts!
Reference 1. CAR 1988. Definitions.
instrument flight time means flight time during which a person is flying an aircraft solely by reference to instruments and without external reference points.
I flew last night in the desert. Clear night, no moon at all (a thin slither rose about 0400. For much of the time there was no discernable horizon at any stage at all - even with all the lights off (which I tried briefly).
I might be clear of cloud but I was poling the a/c with sole reference to instruments and without external reference points.
CS
Capt Claret, was that you into perth last night (21/11)? Just heard you changing off freq as txferred onto it.
Last edited by compressor stall; 22nd Nov 2003 at 15:40.
CS,
Have a look at CAO 40.1.0 para 10.9, it adds the bit about being in actual or simulated IMC to log IF time. Dont know when this was added to the CAO's, at one stage it was the same as the CAR's.
SWH
Have a look at CAO 40.1.0 para 10.9, it adds the bit about being in actual or simulated IMC to log IF time. Dont know when this was added to the CAO's, at one stage it was the same as the CAR's.
SWH
Now the rubgy's over I can elaborate (and I have learnt a bit finding this out too!)
SWH g'day! Still on cloud 9?
That does not restrict one from logging IF time on a black horizonless night. The reg CAO 40.1.10.9 reads (my bolding):
This actual instument time defined in the CARs as:
Further (CAR definitions)
(Refer to CAR 172 and references for VMC distances).
So (and this will be of interest to VH-ABC above)
If you are IMC you cannot automatically log IF time as you may not be in cloud!
Picking your way at full tilt between the towering Cus on descent (love doin' that!
) is technically IMC.
You need to be poling be reference to the instruments to log it. Whether you are in the middle of a cloud, have foggles on or it's a black black night onroute back from a minesite in the desert, you can log I.F.
This diversion deserves a thread of its own!
CS
SWH g'day! Still on cloud 9?
That does not restrict one from logging IF time on a black horizonless night. The reg CAO 40.1.10.9 reads (my bolding):
Instrument flight time may be logged by the pilot monitoring or providing input to the autopilot/auto-stabilisation equipment when it is engaged or by the pilot manually manipulating the controls when the aircraft is flown by reference to instruments under either actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
instrument flight time means flight time during which a person is flying an aircraft solely by reference to instruments and without external reference points.
I.M.C. is the symbol used to designate meteorological conditions other than those designated by the symbol “V.M.C.”.
So (and this will be of interest to VH-ABC above)
If you are IMC you cannot automatically log IF time as you may not be in cloud!
Picking your way at full tilt between the towering Cus on descent (love doin' that!
) is technically IMC.You need to be poling be reference to the instruments to log it. Whether you are in the middle of a cloud, have foggles on or it's a black black night onroute back from a minesite in the desert, you can log I.F.
This diversion deserves a thread of its own!
CS