Pacific Blue & Rishworth

[von Mises]

I started this new thread because the other Pacific Blue threads seem to have deviated off course.


I spoke to XX at Rishworth and he indicated the following regarding Pacific Blue:

1) The initial group of pilots would need to be available (NG rated) by 5th Jan 2004 for the Feb start.

2) Recruiting to be in three batches of 30 pilots, closely spaced.

3) They were hoping to negotiate a bulk deal for the 5 day NG differences course in Seattle normally around U$7,000 (plus airfares and accommodation). He thought they might be able to get it down to U$5,000.

As has been pointed out before, since there are not currently any B737-800’s on the New Zealand register, you cannot put the endorsement on your New Zealand Licence yet.

If anyone was confused by the appearance of Pacific Blue on the pilotstaffCV.com web site, it was a mistake. Contract Aircrew Services are handling the Flight Attendants not pilots.

I was told that the Virgin Blue people are currently looking over the applications and will shortly decide on who to invite for an interview (they will need to get their act together if pilots have to be NG rated by Jan).

E.T.A. are putting together a differences course which I’m told should be ready by Jan (perhaps not early enough for the first batch of recruits?) It will probably be considerably cheaper than the US option. Of course, it will have to be approved by the NZ CAA, which is the intention.

It has been suggested that there were about 700 applications for the PB positions. I would imagine that most of them would be from unrated potential F/O’s. I don’t think there are many NG rated Captains or F/O’s around with significant experience who would be interested but there could be a few Classic rated guys who would be prepared to pay for a differences course. Apparently Jetconnect are having trouble finding enough experienced 737 guys and keeping them (it seems a significant number are heading off to Cathay and elsewhere).

I understand the PB pay will be slightly less than Jetconnect, but an NG based in Christchurch might be enough to entice a few blokes over.

I’m also told Jetconnect are opening a Christchurch base in addition to Auckland and Wellington, mainly because they were worried that they would loose pilots to PB if they didn’t.

Anyone else got anything to add?

[HabibBro]

Yeh all still sounds like a super deal - who could turn down the offer to pay $30-40K get ya NG rating just for the amazing chance of an Interview with a bunch of kiwis. Giddy up dingos go knock their door down!!!

[von Mises]

HabibBro ... thanks for the intelligent input. It's always a pleasure to hear from people of your intellectual calibre ... next time don't bother.

An NG or even a B737 endorsement is not required to get an interview with PB.

The differences course would cost around A$7,000 to $A10,000 and a full B737 endorsement about $25,000 I'm told.

I’m not sure what the point of referring to them as a “bunch of Kiwis” is but it’s hardly relevant.

It may be a good stepping-stone for some.

If it’s of no interest to you … don’t apply … simple.

[Beer Can Dreaming]

A good friend that operated around Europe/Japan for years on contract made it quite obvious that these Aircrew Recruitment companies typically take something like 25% of the paid wages for themselves as a commission!

He also indicated that the reason companies use their services is because they are typically disorganised and havent quite got their act together.

Surely VB in Brisbane would be able to co-ord recruitment for Pacific Blue and save themselves a heap of money in the process.
Hey - the money they save they could pay to the pilots!! (Na,fat chance).
Also when it comes to an NG differences course they have some expertise in this area rather than leave it to this recruitment company who will no doubt attempt to profit by it.

[Groaner]

Doubt that Virgin with their low-cost attitude would allow a recruiting company to take a 25% cut, you can be sure this would have been bargained very hard. I suspect probably to be below 10%.

And that might be the gross margin - usually the agency has to pay for insurances and payroll handling costs. Plus deal with the applicants (and Virgin...!). Not necessarily a gold-mine.

[von Mises]

BCD

I have heard that Rishworth (and other recruitment companies) are not exactly the most enlightened employers on the planet and I am not sure what the reason for using them is (I can guess though). Does anyone have any first hand experience with them that they could share? A 25% cut is pretty steep if that's true.

It may only be a short term relationship to get the airline up and running, does anyone know?

I understand that VB currently have to send their pilots O/S to do the differences course. One of their pilots runs E.T.A. (Endorsement Training Australia) and as I mentioned they are trying to get a differences course approved by January 2004.

I'm not sure if the recruitment company gets a kickback on the training or not. If anyone has any info on this let us know.

[Australia2]

Von,

Jobs can only be considered a "stepping stone" for so long.
Most guys just seem to seek fair pay for a job well done, this does not seem to be the case anymore.

[MoFo]

So Jit Connict are having trouble keeping pilots on those pay rates. Well ****** me. I wonder why.

No doubt the uniform is blue singlet and shorts with tattoos, just like your average long haul truckie.

Just a stepping stone to a real job.

[von Mises]

MoFo

Jetconnect are a wholly owned Qantas subsidiary (the uniform is the same as QF ... as you probably know).

You may be surprised to learn (I was) that several Jetconnect pilots who left for "greener pastures" in Asia obviously decided that money isn't everything and reapplied to go back. One of the reasons that Jetconnect et al can get away with paying such low salaries is that they happen to be based in highly desirable locations. The Asian carriers on the other hand have to pay through the nose to get anyone to move there and even then often have trouble keeping them.

JC and PB etc know full well what is going on and they are prepared to wear the high turnover and associated costs in the belief that it is to their overall advantage. They pay low salaries because they can, not because they are greedy. If they are wrong they will suffer the economic consequences and it will serve them right.

When I buy anything at a shop or elsewhere it never enters my mind to offer to pay more than I believe I have to. Has anyone reading this ever offered to pay more than the asking price for goods and services because they thought they were undermining the wages of the staff of the competition by paying the lower price. I seriously doubt it.

The higher paying carriers are no different. Does anyone really believe they pay higher salaries because they are generous? They pay what they believe it is in their best interest to pay, not a cent more.

The only serious argument (on pay rates) I would have with the low paying carriers relates to the assumptions they make as to what will ultimately be in their best interest. In other words I believe they have underestimated the ultimate cost of higher pilot turnover. It's an economic argument not a moral one. Perhaps I'm wrong, time will tell. In any case I do not have access to the data that would enable me to make such calculations, my belief is based on my own experience and observations of business and my understanding of economic theory. It's their call and right or wrong they have made it.

If JC, PB etc have enough trouble getting and or keeping suitable pilots they will be forced to improve the remuneration they offer. There seems to be some indication that this may be starting to happen. We shall see.

To those pilots considering a so called "low paying job" I suggest you ignore the snide remarks emanating from some quarters and make your decision based on what you believe is in your (and your families) best interests. Only you can know the relevant circumstances.

In any case, you can be sure that the people attacking you do not have your (or your families) best interests at heart, they are looking out for themselves (regardless of any protestations to the contrary).

[borg]

If you want to fly for a budget carrier its of coure your choice, but don't ever complain about the pay, conditions or about doing to much flying.
You have forfeited this right when you signed on the bottom line.

For those who argue it's just a stepping stone where do you intend to go? CX,EMRATS etc. These great companies have thousands of applicants and they don't just wet themselves because you have a bit of jet time. Think about it.

[DustySlim]

von Mises, agree with you on your commment regarding 'low paying jobs' and life style descions.
Im an NG rated captain and have been flying round europe for the past 5 years and I am seriously considering a move to Kiwi land. PB and JC are obviously aware that there comes a point where money is not the most important factor. Yeah you could work in HK for a big carrier and earn a $h!t load of cash but I dont want my kids growing up in that sort of enviroment.
Give me a nice aircraft based in a nice town and yeah i'll take less money.
For all those who think that there are no experienced type rated drivers around who are looking to repatriate, come to the uk for a holiday and see for yourself.

[wandrinabout]

Good balanced post there Von, not saying I neccessarily agree totally, but good points all the same..........

Now down to the nitty gritty - Salaries/Package.
Von, you say salary slightly less than Jet Connect. What is the JC deal? Or even better, do you know the actual package for PB?

Maybe an easier way to answer - are the figures that have been quoted so far correct??

Thanks.

Ps I for one I know my situation better than anybody. I know what lifestyle means. And I know what I need to meet my/our requirements. So no advice required on rights or wrongs thanks.

[von Mises]

Borg

No body forfeits any such thing when they join any airline. They and anyone else can complain to their hearts content and we are just as free to ignore them (and probably will). I'm sure they don't expect any sympathy (which is just as well).

For many, it is a choice between not flying at all and flying. Not between a low paying job and a high paying job. I'm sure they would welcome such a choice if it ever presented itself.

I used to fly for a 'top tier airline' and there was no end of complaining there. Often about the pay but mostly about the attitude and perceived lack of talent in management. I'm sure the lower paid pilots elsewhere thought we had forfeited our right to complain when we accepted our well paid jobs. We didn't of course but they had every right not to listen to the whinging.

DustySlim - you illustrate one of my points very well.

Wandrinabout - The Jetconnect pay is as follows (from the PilotStaffCV.com web site):

1) First Officers:

NZ$55,000 (First Officer with less than 500 Flight Hours on a B737-300 or higher), or
NZ$66,000 plus a NZ$9,000 Retention Supplement (First Officer with 500 Flight Hours or more on a B737-300 or higher).

2) Captains:

NZ$110,000 plus a NZ$15,000 Retention Supplement.

In addition the telephone and dry cleaning allowances all Flight Crew also receive a Daily Travelling Allowance (DTA) of NZ$3.20 per hour or part thereof from sign on to sign off whilst away from home base.

I am still trying to get confirmation of the PB salary. The best guess at the moment is a few thousand a year less than JC.

[Gnadenburg]

von mises

Can you cut the stepping stone crap?

As pointed out , airlines such as EK have thousands of applicants due the proliferation of crap outfits like PoohBlue.

Airlines have upped their requirements to type endorsement and widebody experience because of the dime a dozen nature of 737 pilots.

What does annoy me is blokes like yourself a few years down the track-as witnessed by the moaning of VB pilots-who have made their bed and now refuse to lie in it. This affects the conditions of professional pilots in good soild operations that pay a fair wage and invest in the professional training of their people!

Virgin Manilla next-oxymoron I know-with an international arm to encompass Pacific expansion and undercut "expensive" NZ wages.

[Thump & Go]

Anybody know of applicants who have got a response from Rishworth? Heard someone claim to have got an e-mail from them 2 days ago and was told F/O salary would be NZ$70K + NZ$4/hr duty pay. Any truth to these figures?

[Winchester]

Interim salary details;

Captains: $115,000 p.a.

Snr F/O’s $74,000 p.a. (those with B737-3/4/5 & NG experience).

Jnr F/O’s $69,000 p.a. (direct entry with type rating only).



All will receive $3.20 per hour duty allowance.

LOL insurance assistance up to a maximum of $1,200 (depending on age).

[stillalbatross]

From talking to Jack "Bombay Sapphire" P many many moons ago they get a set package from the airline and it's up to them to assess the market and then pay what they want. Pitch too low and the high turnover upsets their customer, the airline, pitch too high and they don't make any money and may themselves not get the contract from the airline. So you assess the market and go from there, which is why they hold out for so long to get a feel for the market before deciding pay scales.

If the market is going to be weak for say the next 5 or 10 years then they could pay say 45 and 75, really lean on the lifestyle angle in NZ as a selling point and possibly fill the contract. They'd be pocketing maybe half the contract and they'd risk loosing people to Parc etc. Would it be worth it? People forget they're a business, they're not an offshoot for the social welfare that helps pilots get work..........

[Misty Air]

I know a couple of the handful of Kiwis flying for VB and they aren't giving PB a second thought,I wonder why

[Whiskery]

If you're dealing with "Captain" Jack, make sure you get EVERYTHING in writing before committing - especially the remuneration.

[Maisk Rotum]

Interviews in about a weeks time but we still haven't decided who will attend..................................