Ansett - A Current Affair
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Good one Woomera
Yeah I cannot ever see a time whe the 2 Marks will want to stop milking the Ansett cow !
Also just when are we going to stop paying 5 bucks a flt or is it a sector ?/10 bucks a ticket to repay the goverment for the super levy for Ansett staff???
I have no argument with the staff getting their entitlements but I do begrudge forking over 10 bills every time I fly in Australia to help pay for it!
Hey there are many many buisiness's that go down the gurgler and some of the people employed in them lost everything and never got a handout from the goverment when their employers skipped with their super contributions!
Sorry if I hijacked the thread now off soapbox.
Yeah I cannot ever see a time whe the 2 Marks will want to stop milking the Ansett cow !
Also just when are we going to stop paying 5 bucks a flt or is it a sector ?/10 bucks a ticket to repay the goverment for the super levy for Ansett staff???
I have no argument with the staff getting their entitlements but I do begrudge forking over 10 bills every time I fly in Australia to help pay for it!
Hey there are many many buisiness's that go down the gurgler and some of the people employed in them lost everything and never got a handout from the goverment when their employers skipped with their super contributions!
Sorry if I hijacked the thread now off soapbox.
Evertonian
faheel.
As an Ansett refugee, I was greatful to get the initial redundancy payment from the Govt. but there shouldn't have been a tax to cover that payment. What is needed, is tighter controls on companies & how they operate, in regard to their responsibilities to their workers.
If the Govt. starts applying a tax for all redundant workers of any industry, this country will get nowhere. It was a dangerous precedent.
As an Ansett refugee, I was greatful to get the initial redundancy payment from the Govt. but there shouldn't have been a tax to cover that payment. What is needed, is tighter controls on companies & how they operate, in regard to their responsibilities to their workers.
If the Govt. starts applying a tax for all redundant workers of any industry, this country will get nowhere. It was a dangerous precedent.
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BH,
I am also an AN refugee, I was under the impression that the money gathered from the AN tax was never used for employee payments. It was just a convienient name that the government saw as a means of revenue.
The last time I talked to Mentha he said that the government had only given the administrator a loan to cover initial payments which had to subsequently be paid back from the sale of Ansett Assetts.
I may be wrong because you can't believe everything M & M tell you.
I am also an AN refugee, I was under the impression that the money gathered from the AN tax was never used for employee payments. It was just a convienient name that the government saw as a means of revenue.
The last time I talked to Mentha he said that the government had only given the administrator a loan to cover initial payments which had to subsequently be paid back from the sale of Ansett Assetts.
I may be wrong because you can't believe everything M & M tell you.
Faheel,
At least you now know the levy was not going to the AN folk, just another hidden tax, in the highest taxed nation in the world.
At least you now know the levy was not going to the AN folk, just another hidden tax, in the highest taxed nation in the world.
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Crikey.com.au
22 October 2003
Fancy that. A Current Affair with a story, Ansett, that actually has a bit of punch and relevance (but don’t take that as an endorsement of the saccharine Ray Martin).
Readers will be aware that this writer has previously commented on the Ansett issue in the columns of Crikey. It is nice to see that at least one other media outlet has not forgotten the issue.
As a number of Ansett jets sit quietly rusting in Melbourne (you’d have to think they would be better off stored in Alice Springs or similar), the usual suspects continue to do very little. Or nothing at all.
Rather than rewrite what has already been noted, items by this writer are appended below. However, ACA, and all credit to them, have reminded people that, as badly operated as Ansett was (although no doubt we all fondly remember the levels of service that Ansett were renowned for), and while it had to fail, a large number of employees had legitimate superannuation funds which have been imperiled. A number of employees were on contracts which bound Ansett to certain payments, again imperiled. A number of other employees are owed monies, legally theirs, again imperiled.
You may well question the wisdom of Ansett’s contracting philosophy and its employment conditions but, for whatever reason, they prevailed and they were/are a legally binding obligation upon Ansett (and its administrators).
Now, over two years later, many of those monies are still owing. The impact on lives is still being felt and there has been precious little reform to the legal situation governing the real-world experience of employees, with monies in trust or obligated to them in terms of their ability to recover such, when a company goes bust.
ACA reminded us all of a few players.
Hear much from Sharan Burrows of Greg Combet on the issue? No. And you won’t. The airline and tourism sector have been woefully represented over the last two years by the union movement. A union movement that was very happy to pocket fees, dues and contributions but which disappeared very quickly after the industries fell apart in the way they did. That Burrows and Combet are still around suggest just how indifferent people are to the ACTU or just how weak the ACTU membership is that it would continue to employ such inadequate performers.
Hear much from Kim Beasley? Despite the grandstanding he undertook at the time of the collapse the man who has already lost an election, lost a leadership challenge and saddled Australia with a fleet of subs that don’t work, still has the effrontery to hang around in politics. There just is no shame. The Ansett issue was a convenient item with which to drive a political agenda and mouth off a few 30 second sound bites. No ticker, no backbone and no consistency.
Hear much from Tony Abbott. According to ACA his response: “It’s not my department anymore.” Not a bad rendition of Pilate really. And about as valid as well. The bloke washed his hands of his kid, what more do you expect of him?
Hear from John Anderson? No. Of course not. The brainless twit continues to oversee a National Party in rapid decline and is not trusted by PM&C to be put close to a microphone if there is something to say. Transport Minister? Please.
And from the PM himself? Not a thing. Well, who would want to keep reminding the punters about dopey Stan and the bailout on National Textiles.
From Mark Mentha and Mark Korda? Nope. Arnold Bloch Liebler made a quid out of it but boy, have the two Mark’s done well. Earning a fair kick for previous employer, the now no longer existent Andersen’s, these two have been very happy to allow the courts to take their sweet time in assessing the validity or otherwise of the Superannuation Fund claim. Millions of dollars have gone their way. Certainly they have worked hard to sort out the mess but at their rate of pay they’d want to be burning the midnight oil every night. Ansett liberated them from the old firm and set them up in KordaMentha (putting the brains of the outfit up front there). But still no real result for the thousands of disempowered, disenfranchised individuals who are waiting for their contractual obligations to be filled. (Lot’s of excuses though.)
Hear much from the government? No indeed. The ticket tax and repayments for Ansett have given the government a surplus amount of cash, over $200 million.
What sort of a country are we? We just bend over and take it every time. That these pricks in the government can tax the Australian public, come up with a surplus and then some lame scheme to put it into “tourism” (just how, when and where – we’d sure like to see the books on that one Treasurer) is ludicrous. That we all stand around and accept it with a shrug, knowing that they are all crooks, is a disgrace. And I am no better. I know they are crooks and I just shrug. (Memo to self: Don’t be so apathetic. Refer to Jefferson, tree of liberty, blood of tyrants and an occasional revolution. He had the right idea. Now that would keep the bastards honest).
Upshot is that the political attention span in Canberra on any issue of substance is short. But they know that the public attention span is shorter. As are indeed the memories.
Well, refresh your memory by referring to the comment below. The suspects are all still about.
===========================
22 October 2003
Fancy that. A Current Affair with a story, Ansett, that actually has a bit of punch and relevance (but don’t take that as an endorsement of the saccharine Ray Martin).
Readers will be aware that this writer has previously commented on the Ansett issue in the columns of Crikey. It is nice to see that at least one other media outlet has not forgotten the issue.
As a number of Ansett jets sit quietly rusting in Melbourne (you’d have to think they would be better off stored in Alice Springs or similar), the usual suspects continue to do very little. Or nothing at all.
Rather than rewrite what has already been noted, items by this writer are appended below. However, ACA, and all credit to them, have reminded people that, as badly operated as Ansett was (although no doubt we all fondly remember the levels of service that Ansett were renowned for), and while it had to fail, a large number of employees had legitimate superannuation funds which have been imperiled. A number of employees were on contracts which bound Ansett to certain payments, again imperiled. A number of other employees are owed monies, legally theirs, again imperiled.
You may well question the wisdom of Ansett’s contracting philosophy and its employment conditions but, for whatever reason, they prevailed and they were/are a legally binding obligation upon Ansett (and its administrators).
Now, over two years later, many of those monies are still owing. The impact on lives is still being felt and there has been precious little reform to the legal situation governing the real-world experience of employees, with monies in trust or obligated to them in terms of their ability to recover such, when a company goes bust.
ACA reminded us all of a few players.
Hear much from Sharan Burrows of Greg Combet on the issue? No. And you won’t. The airline and tourism sector have been woefully represented over the last two years by the union movement. A union movement that was very happy to pocket fees, dues and contributions but which disappeared very quickly after the industries fell apart in the way they did. That Burrows and Combet are still around suggest just how indifferent people are to the ACTU or just how weak the ACTU membership is that it would continue to employ such inadequate performers.
Hear much from Kim Beasley? Despite the grandstanding he undertook at the time of the collapse the man who has already lost an election, lost a leadership challenge and saddled Australia with a fleet of subs that don’t work, still has the effrontery to hang around in politics. There just is no shame. The Ansett issue was a convenient item with which to drive a political agenda and mouth off a few 30 second sound bites. No ticker, no backbone and no consistency.
Hear much from Tony Abbott. According to ACA his response: “It’s not my department anymore.” Not a bad rendition of Pilate really. And about as valid as well. The bloke washed his hands of his kid, what more do you expect of him?
Hear from John Anderson? No. Of course not. The brainless twit continues to oversee a National Party in rapid decline and is not trusted by PM&C to be put close to a microphone if there is something to say. Transport Minister? Please.
And from the PM himself? Not a thing. Well, who would want to keep reminding the punters about dopey Stan and the bailout on National Textiles.
From Mark Mentha and Mark Korda? Nope. Arnold Bloch Liebler made a quid out of it but boy, have the two Mark’s done well. Earning a fair kick for previous employer, the now no longer existent Andersen’s, these two have been very happy to allow the courts to take their sweet time in assessing the validity or otherwise of the Superannuation Fund claim. Millions of dollars have gone their way. Certainly they have worked hard to sort out the mess but at their rate of pay they’d want to be burning the midnight oil every night. Ansett liberated them from the old firm and set them up in KordaMentha (putting the brains of the outfit up front there). But still no real result for the thousands of disempowered, disenfranchised individuals who are waiting for their contractual obligations to be filled. (Lot’s of excuses though.)
Hear much from the government? No indeed. The ticket tax and repayments for Ansett have given the government a surplus amount of cash, over $200 million.
What sort of a country are we? We just bend over and take it every time. That these pricks in the government can tax the Australian public, come up with a surplus and then some lame scheme to put it into “tourism” (just how, when and where – we’d sure like to see the books on that one Treasurer) is ludicrous. That we all stand around and accept it with a shrug, knowing that they are all crooks, is a disgrace. And I am no better. I know they are crooks and I just shrug. (Memo to self: Don’t be so apathetic. Refer to Jefferson, tree of liberty, blood of tyrants and an occasional revolution. He had the right idea. Now that would keep the bastards honest).
Upshot is that the political attention span in Canberra on any issue of substance is short. But they know that the public attention span is shorter. As are indeed the memories.
Well, refresh your memory by referring to the comment below. The suspects are all still about.
===========================
PPRuNette
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The poll result:
97% Yes
3% No
Over 25 000 registered votes cast.
ACA was quick to point out it was by far the the largest result in favour of the affirmative of any poll they have ever conducted on the program.
97% Yes
3% No
Over 25 000 registered votes cast.
ACA was quick to point out it was by far the the largest result in favour of the affirmative of any poll they have ever conducted on the program.
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The poll was about - "should the money collected by the Government in the form of the Ansett ticket-tax be paid to the ex-Ansett workers"? Those are my words, but convey the intent of the poll to the best of my recollection.
I was staggered at the 97% in favour, it appears to me that our plight may not have been forgotten by the general public after all. Let's hope so, but I really can't see the Government having the political will to agree, just consider the precedent it would set. Any company in the same position could sit back and ask the government of the day to bail out its work-force, so I'm afraid I don't hold out much hope of a positive resolution.
HI, GG, how's life?
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
I was staggered at the 97% in favour, it appears to me that our plight may not have been forgotten by the general public after all. Let's hope so, but I really can't see the Government having the political will to agree, just consider the precedent it would set. Any company in the same position could sit back and ask the government of the day to bail out its work-force, so I'm afraid I don't hold out much hope of a positive resolution.
HI, GG, how's life?
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
NightOwl.
The Ansett ticket tax must eventually bite the Federal Government on the bum!
They collected the ticket tax - $300 plus mill from memory - in the name of the redundant Ansett staff.
M&M then claim the Federal financial assistance as a result of the tax, was a loan (or guarantee) only.
But despite the tax collected, the staff have not been paid.
So:
Where is the ticket tax now - in Government "consolidated revenue"?
Why haven't the staff been paid if the funds are guaranteed?
How many expensive lunches have M&M had this week?
The Ansett ticket tax must eventually bite the Federal Government on the bum!
They collected the ticket tax - $300 plus mill from memory - in the name of the redundant Ansett staff.
M&M then claim the Federal financial assistance as a result of the tax, was a loan (or guarantee) only.
But despite the tax collected, the staff have not been paid.
So:
Where is the ticket tax now - in Government "consolidated revenue"?
Why haven't the staff been paid if the funds are guaranteed?
How many expensive lunches have M&M had this week?
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I wish I had the answers to your questions, Torres, but you know as much as I. My understanding is that the Government provided the initial $340 million (?) to guarantee payment to employees of the "SEESA" outlay, i.e. outstanding Long-Service Leave, Annual Leave, any other outstanding monies and 8 weeks' Redundancy pay. This was in the form of a loan, to be paid back froom the sale of assets of the Company.
I understand that the money, of whatever amount - and I've heard ranging between $215 million to 250million - is to go to the tourism industry, not into Consolidated Revenue.
Staff have been paid the SEESA payment, any more is to be paid pro-rata from the final amount realised from the sale of assets. This is up in the air just now, until the Super people's appeal case is resolved. If they win, then the outstanding claim will be paid to NSP Buck by the Administrators which will decimate the amount available to pay out the rest of the AN debt to employees.
I'm NOT going to get into a slanging match about the probity of M&M, in spite of the delays I still believe they are honest men, not a popular view, I understand. If I am wrong, then they have to live with the knowledge of their dishonesty, but I don't believe they deserve the abuse hurled at them. To many, I don't doubt that sounds naive, but that's my slant on the situation.
I'm hopeful that the NSP Buck claim is denied, I loathe the idea of money available to come to us going to a company who wanted the income enough to take the Ground Staff Scheme from AMP, then want us to give them OUR money to pay THEIR debt to us.
Again, I reiterate that I believe the Government can't give M&M the income from the ticket tax to disburse to us, the precedent set could mean the end of responsibility by ANY company towards the entitlements of their staff in that they could cite this as a reason why the Government should pick up the tab. Little Johnnie won't wear that, nor will the voting public want to see their hard-earned going to prop up a system which would be seen to be flawed.
I honestly don't know, Torres, there are times I despair of being able to afford to live in my retirement due next year, other than a "hand-to-mouth" existence, and that's not a scenario I envisaged when I came to Australia 22 years ago and joined Ansett.
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
I understand that the money, of whatever amount - and I've heard ranging between $215 million to 250million - is to go to the tourism industry, not into Consolidated Revenue.
Staff have been paid the SEESA payment, any more is to be paid pro-rata from the final amount realised from the sale of assets. This is up in the air just now, until the Super people's appeal case is resolved. If they win, then the outstanding claim will be paid to NSP Buck by the Administrators which will decimate the amount available to pay out the rest of the AN debt to employees.
I'm NOT going to get into a slanging match about the probity of M&M, in spite of the delays I still believe they are honest men, not a popular view, I understand. If I am wrong, then they have to live with the knowledge of their dishonesty, but I don't believe they deserve the abuse hurled at them. To many, I don't doubt that sounds naive, but that's my slant on the situation.
I'm hopeful that the NSP Buck claim is denied, I loathe the idea of money available to come to us going to a company who wanted the income enough to take the Ground Staff Scheme from AMP, then want us to give them OUR money to pay THEIR debt to us.
Again, I reiterate that I believe the Government can't give M&M the income from the ticket tax to disburse to us, the precedent set could mean the end of responsibility by ANY company towards the entitlements of their staff in that they could cite this as a reason why the Government should pick up the tab. Little Johnnie won't wear that, nor will the voting public want to see their hard-earned going to prop up a system which would be seen to be flawed.
I honestly don't know, Torres, there are times I despair of being able to afford to live in my retirement due next year, other than a "hand-to-mouth" existence, and that's not a scenario I envisaged when I came to Australia 22 years ago and joined Ansett.
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
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"I honestly don't know, Torres, there are times I despair of being able to afford to live in my retirement due next year, other than a "hand-to-mouth" existence, and that's not a scenario I envisaged when I came to Australia 22 years ago and joined Ansett.
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl."
Lots of 89ers had the same sentiments 14 yrs ago Owl!
It didn't bother you then, why should it bother you now?
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl."
Lots of 89ers had the same sentiments 14 yrs ago Owl!
It didn't bother you then, why should it bother you now?
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I suppose I should have expected this response from one such as you, amos, but it still saddens me that you feel you have to try to link 1989 with the demise of AN.
You are as aware as I that the decisions made by your peers at that time were of your choice, I and my colleagues played NO part in the debacle. I was ground staff, not Tech Crew nor a member of the AFAP, so please keep your sniping for the people who caused your problems, however you may perceive them. Remember, YOU made YOUR choices, I never wished the Company any harm nor brought it to the state it was in at the end. God in Heaven, man, - I presume I have the sex correct - my department was the only one making money for the Company up to, and after, the collapse.
Now, please re-insert your objectionable mouth back into the fundamental orifice from which it emerged, resort to your usual state of ignorant bliss, and stay out of my life.
TheNightOwl.
You are as aware as I that the decisions made by your peers at that time were of your choice, I and my colleagues played NO part in the debacle. I was ground staff, not Tech Crew nor a member of the AFAP, so please keep your sniping for the people who caused your problems, however you may perceive them. Remember, YOU made YOUR choices, I never wished the Company any harm nor brought it to the state it was in at the end. God in Heaven, man, - I presume I have the sex correct - my department was the only one making money for the Company up to, and after, the collapse.
Now, please re-insert your objectionable mouth back into the fundamental orifice from which it emerged, resort to your usual state of ignorant bliss, and stay out of my life.
TheNightOwl.
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amos2 - take a couple of panadol and have a good lie down.
Nightowl your comments regarding SEESA and that sad individual amos2 are spot on.
Whilst it won't do any of us ex AN employees any good, the Government needs to have a good hard look at the Corporations Law that applies to insolvency administrations.
The fact that a minority can hold a majority to ransom, whilst the pie that will be divided up amongst all employees continues to shrink speaks volumes about our inefficient system.
Two years have passed . . . will there be any pie left?
As each week passes, my expectations of any form of payment wane.
The money that has been eaten up with the costs of the administration and the disastrous Ansett Mark II/Tesna fiasco can (eventually) be measured. What can never be measured is the enormous pain and suffering that ex AN employees and their families have experienced over the past two years and no doubt many continue to suffer today.
Nightowl your comments regarding SEESA and that sad individual amos2 are spot on.
Whilst it won't do any of us ex AN employees any good, the Government needs to have a good hard look at the Corporations Law that applies to insolvency administrations.
The fact that a minority can hold a majority to ransom, whilst the pie that will be divided up amongst all employees continues to shrink speaks volumes about our inefficient system.
Two years have passed . . . will there be any pie left?
As each week passes, my expectations of any form of payment wane.
The money that has been eaten up with the costs of the administration and the disastrous Ansett Mark II/Tesna fiasco can (eventually) be measured. What can never be measured is the enormous pain and suffering that ex AN employees and their families have experienced over the past two years and no doubt many continue to suffer today.