Crew missing as Convair 580 crashes near Wellington
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the track from chc - pmr is planned from cc-ty-pp-fxt-pm but depending on the runway in use at wn you can go cc-wn-otaki-pm of from cc- direct to pp or fxt depending on traffic and what atc clear you for.
as for that guy bloxham have just read about him in the stuff website, that guy really needs to be taken out and given a good thrashing.... he is a shocker....
the track from chc - pmr is planned from cc-ty-pp-fxt-pm but depending on the runway in use at wn you can go cc-wn-otaki-pm of from cc- direct to pp or fxt depending on traffic and what atc clear you for.
as for that guy bloxham have just read about him in the stuff website, that guy really needs to be taken out and given a good thrashing.... he is a shocker....
Again, where do these experts come from?
I can't believe that this guy Les B said that the plane tried to avoid a storm by flying under it and ending up hitting a tree and was happy to have that printed in the paper.
Why is it you never get statements off these guys when the reports come out and they are obviously wrong. The guy is a moron.
No one knows what happened.....yet.
I have been guilty of putting in my two cents in the past, but I now realise that there is no point speculating, better to be patient.
I can't believe that this guy Les B said that the plane tried to avoid a storm by flying under it and ending up hitting a tree and was happy to have that printed in the paper.
Why is it you never get statements off these guys when the reports come out and they are obviously wrong. The guy is a moron.
No one knows what happened.....yet.
I have been guilty of putting in my two cents in the past, but I now realise that there is no point speculating, better to be patient.
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Hit a tree? Where do we get these gnikcuf idiot 'expert' commentators from? I'd like to see TV news chase up Mr Bloxham this afternoon and have him explain his theory in full on tonights news. I think they'd find him in Nandor Tandoori's kitchen spotting some real good tihs off the stove.
It amazes me that newspapers still source their information from these people. What amazes me further is that noone has the brains to discount or question their views before it goes to print.
What does it take to become one of these so-called experts anyway.
If hitting a tree is the most likely scenario, I can't begin to imagine what the more far fetched theories might be...............
MAPt
It amazes me that newspapers still source their information from these people. What amazes me further is that noone has the brains to discount or question their views before it goes to print.
What does it take to become one of these so-called experts anyway.
If hitting a tree is the most likely scenario, I can't begin to imagine what the more far fetched theories might be...............
MAPt
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It would appear at this stage that they got caught with a extremely active storm cell. All the exits North out of Wellington were closed just after they would have passed over. At Paekakariki the main trunk rail, and state highway 1 were both closed due flooding, and the water came up very rapidly. I am only 25 km north at Paraparaumu and the weather was shocking for a period of about 2hours, torrential rain, mostly falling horizontally the wind was so strong. The general weather was bad but this cell must have been exceedingly active, and it would have been well buried in the wx system.
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Is there a legal type here prepared to run with litigation regarding Messrs Bloxham, Alley, Milne, Clarke et al pertaining to statements made in a public arena that are of a libelous/defamatory/slanderous nature?
There should be.
Evidently these journo low lives have even been hounding the families
They need to be accountable. Aircrew are.
Absent Friends.
There should be.
Evidently these journo low lives have even been hounding the families
They need to be accountable. Aircrew are.
Absent Friends.
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Sad news, I knew Barry from when I was a kid and he was always one of the best. I understand that they were talking to OH and all was well when all of a sudden they reversed course and decended rapidly ....... 7 thousand feet or several thousand feet not sure .....
As for Les Bloxham ....... well my mum tought me if you have nothing good to say then say nothing at all! ... RIP guys you will be missed.
As for Les Bloxham ....... well my mum tought me if you have nothing good to say then say nothing at all! ... RIP guys you will be missed.
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Any idea where the CV580 attitude indicators get their power and attitude data from?
Where the standby attitude indicator (if any?) was located on the panel?
Was it an upgrade EFIS panel?
Maybe someone can post this info and even a photo of the CV580 panel - i.e. as used in this fleet.
Sudden loss of even one attitude indicator in a very dynamic cell can cause mental mayhem. Upset conditions can develop in mere seconds and soon become irrecoverable. Structural failure soon follows (earlier than you'd think due to the asymmetric g induced in attempted recovery from a classic spiral).
It only takes a lightning strike and a bit of substandard airframe bonding....and electrical systems can take a real hit. Been there.
Where the standby attitude indicator (if any?) was located on the panel?
Was it an upgrade EFIS panel?
Maybe someone can post this info and even a photo of the CV580 panel - i.e. as used in this fleet.
Sudden loss of even one attitude indicator in a very dynamic cell can cause mental mayhem. Upset conditions can develop in mere seconds and soon become irrecoverable. Structural failure soon follows (earlier than you'd think due to the asymmetric g induced in attempted recovery from a classic spiral).
It only takes a lightning strike and a bit of substandard airframe bonding....and electrical systems can take a real hit. Been there.
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OVERTALK,
Attitude indicators are 115V AC powered on the CV580. Gyros are contained within the instrument. Three different possible sources of power. Two engine driven alternators and an inverter should they both fail. Bad night if all three should fail.
Standby Horizon Indicator is on the captain's instrument panel. The book states that the gyro is contained inside the instrument and mechanically connected to the display drum giving a high degree of reliability. Powered from the 28V DC essential bus.
Don't have a cockpit shot of the actual aircraft panel but similar to the photo on the link below. The standby is slightly obscured by the control yoke.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/153701/M/
Attitude indicators are 115V AC powered on the CV580. Gyros are contained within the instrument. Three different possible sources of power. Two engine driven alternators and an inverter should they both fail. Bad night if all three should fail.
Standby Horizon Indicator is on the captain's instrument panel. The book states that the gyro is contained inside the instrument and mechanically connected to the display drum giving a high degree of reliability. Powered from the 28V DC essential bus.
Don't have a cockpit shot of the actual aircraft panel but similar to the photo on the link below. The standby is slightly obscured by the control yoke.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/153701/M/
Last edited by radar vectored; 6th Oct 2003 at 06:26.
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Convair 580 CH-PP-PM accident.
My sincere condolences to the families of the missing Pilots.
I new Paul some 20 years ago as a pupil for fixed winged flight instructor training. He had about 8000hrs then!
His ability to fly accurately with precision was insurpassable.
I under stand the Commander was of the same ability. a natural.
Mr Bloxham needs to be fitted with an Aero-Products prop blade in the obvious orifice for his public opinion of tree hitting, while creeping under a CB!!
I heard a report that they were at 17K and did a descending turn.
No news as of 0456GMT 6th Oct.
BBG
My sincere condolences to the families of the missing Pilots.
I new Paul some 20 years ago as a pupil for fixed winged flight instructor training. He had about 8000hrs then!
His ability to fly accurately with precision was insurpassable.
I under stand the Commander was of the same ability. a natural.
Mr Bloxham needs to be fitted with an Aero-Products prop blade in the obvious orifice for his public opinion of tree hitting, while creeping under a CB!!
I heard a report that they were at 17K and did a descending turn.
No news as of 0456GMT 6th Oct.
BBG
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Radar Vectored. I flew the Convair 440 Metropolitan years ago. It had a well designed roomy cockpit with easy viewing of the instrument panel and various switches. In contrast, when I had a quick peek at the Convair 580 panels at Auckland last year, I was very surprised at the hotch potch of instruments and navaid boxes seemingly thrown together with marked lack of ergonomics. It was quite confusing.
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One thing I dont miss about living in CHCH, ENZED is that complete buffoon and self professed aviation expert, Mr Les Bloxham. I used to get so wound up reading the tripe he spewed out of his useless fat head in the Christchurch Press. Les, if your reading this, as I am sure you are you little snivelling turd, how about telling us what makes you an "Aviation Expert". Being a PPL at the Canterbury Aero Club won't cut it either.
You are an ill informed bottom dweller of the worst kind, in fact a complete @@@@!!! (rhymes with small boat sailed down the Avon!)
And my sincere condolences to all involved
All for now
KF
You are an ill informed bottom dweller of the worst kind, in fact a complete @@@@!!! (rhymes with small boat sailed down the Avon!)
And my sincere condolences to all involved
All for now
KF
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Aircraft was just north of Paraparaumu, descending thru F145, when all SSR information suddenly disappeared. The primary only return (sourced from Hawkins Hill PSR) was then observed in a right turn of about 20 degrees before it, too, disappeared.
This supports the theory that an in flight breakup at high (for a turboprop) altitude occurred.
I only put this here to disprove the idiotic notion that a crew on an IFR flight in a Part 121 aircraft wouldn have "hit a tree while descending under a storm" still some 50 nm from destination!
This supports the theory that an in flight breakup at high (for a turboprop) altitude occurred.
I only put this here to disprove the idiotic notion that a crew on an IFR flight in a Part 121 aircraft wouldn have "hit a tree while descending under a storm" still some 50 nm from destination!
Last edited by deadhead; 7th Oct 2003 at 16:27.
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Interesting what this Les Bloxam chappie is speculating.
Maybe he was a "scud runner", even at night.
This is the only plausible explanation for his less than intelligent analysis of what happened that I could think of.
If correct, just as well he retired when he did, before he killed himself!!
On the other hand............... at least there wouldn’t be anymore imbecilic comments to the press, would there??
Maybe he was a "scud runner", even at night.
This is the only plausible explanation for his less than intelligent analysis of what happened that I could think of.
If correct, just as well he retired when he did, before he killed himself!!
On the other hand............... at least there wouldn’t be anymore imbecilic comments to the press, would there??
Last edited by Loc-out; 7th Oct 2003 at 06:29.
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Hudson,
Your observation of the panels in the CV580 series is pretty fair. Of the three that I've had the pleasure to operate no two were alike. As the modification of the airframes occured over time things did seem to be added willy-nilly. In saying that, the standart instrument T and the engine instruments were all still in their standard place and visible. Many a happy hour I've spent in the company of such a fine aircraft and sitting next to some fine pilots. What these tragic incidents remind us of is that we are a lucky few that can call the skies our office and are all touched by such tragic events.
Your observation of the panels in the CV580 series is pretty fair. Of the three that I've had the pleasure to operate no two were alike. As the modification of the airframes occured over time things did seem to be added willy-nilly. In saying that, the standart instrument T and the engine instruments were all still in their standard place and visible. Many a happy hour I've spent in the company of such a fine aircraft and sitting next to some fine pilots. What these tragic incidents remind us of is that we are a lucky few that can call the skies our office and are all touched by such tragic events.
Last edited by radar vectored; 7th Oct 2003 at 11:13.
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Due what appears to be an extensive wreckage trail and loss of radar return.No ATC comms or emergancy calls I would subscribe to an inflight breakup/seperation(at altitude) theory.So the question is,what caused this?
(My theory only)
So Bloxam you so called expert you seen any 7000 ft trees???
Yes big K ,Poor reporting indeed!Shameful infact.
(My theory only)
So Bloxam you so called expert you seen any 7000 ft trees???
Yes big K ,Poor reporting indeed!Shameful infact.
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NZPA
Plane crash area known for icing
07 October 2003
By PAUL GORMAN
Severe aircraft icing could have been a major factor in the crash of the Air Freight NZ Convair somewhere off the Kapiti coast.
An aviation weather forecaster revealed yesterday that the area is known by pilots as a black spot for aircraft icing, particularly in conditions such as those which battered the west of the North Island on Friday.
Damaging turbulence and lightning strikes are now thought less likely to have been present at the time of the accident, about 9.30pm on Friday.
The Convair 580, on the way from Christchurch to Palmerston North and piloted by Barry Cowley, of Kaiapoi, and Paul Miller, of Thames, appears to have been flying through the worst of the storm system about the time that torrential rain was turning parts of the Kapiti coast into a disaster area.
Six years ago, just on the other side of Paraparaumu, icing was discovered as a significant cause in the crash of a United Aviation freight flight, in which pilot Timothy Thompson was killed.
Freightways managing director Dean Bracewell told The Press the missing pilots were "two very experienced operators" who would not have taken any chances on flying if they considered the weather was too dangerous.
The MetService would not comment on the specific incident because of the air accident investigation. But operations manager James Travers said conditions might have been conducive to icing in the area.
Severe weather warnings had been issued for high winds and heavy rain throughout much of the country on Friday. Warnings were also issued for pilots by aviation forecasters, predicting possible aircraft icing and severe turbulence across the North Island, and these were in force during the evening.
There was at least one observation of severe turbulence that day, Mr Travers said. Major turbulence was reported by an aircraft pilot flying about 6000m south of Auckland in the late afternoon.
Despite earlier reports that lightning could have played a part in the accident, he said it did not seem there was significant electrical activity in the clouds over the area.
Icing could have been present. Its formation in that area would have resulted from high moisture levels in mild northerly airflows and uplift near the Tararua Ranges, the same conditions that could have led to heavy rain along the coast.
"There is the possibility that around the Otaki area particularly, icing can be particularly bad in moist northerly flows. It can be difficult (flying there) in icing conditions."
MetService weather ambassador Bob McDavitt called Friday's weather "abysmal".
The intensity of the storm along the coast was reflected in the extreme rainfall. The service usually described heavy rain as more than 5mm an hour, but up to 25mm was falling each hour in Paekakariki and Waikanae.
Mr Bracewell said up-to-date weather information for the flight to Palmerston North would have been provided to the pilots before leaving Christchurch, and updated during the flight.
"It's a very procedural business, planning a journey. If they had known of anything untoward with the aircraft or the conditions, they would not have taken off."
The ultimate decision on whether to make the flight or cancel was always the pilot's to make.
There was nothing unusual in making two return trips to Palmerston North in an evening's work, Mr Bracewell said.
The crash of the United Aviation flight in June 1997, two months before the airline went into receivership, was a result of icing and inadequate safety procedures, Wellington Coroner Garry Evans said in December last year.
============================================
NZPA
Firm stands by air safety procedures
07 October 2003
By COLLEEN SIMPSON
Freightways managing director Dean Bracewell said yesterday that Air Freight's safety record was highly regarded within aviation circles.
The only other accident on its record occurred in 1989 when three people were killed after a Convair 580 operated by Air Freight crashed at Auckland Airport, hitting an embankment soon after take-off.
In June this year, a Convair 580 got lost while en route to its new owner Fieldair, another business owned by Freightways, after navigational equipment was programmed incorrectly.
The cargo plane narrowly avoided running out of fuel and being forced to ditch in the sea after being safely guided back on course by an American military flight.
Mr Bracewell said Air Freight NZ maintained all its cargo aircraft in line with a regular timetable to comply with both internal and Civil Aviation Authority standards.
He said there were no concerns about the company's Convair fleet before the accident.
"If there were any, the pilots would have expressed them and the CAA audit would have shown them up and action would have been taken," he said. The focus now would be on the families involved and finding what caused the crash.
CAA communications manager Bill Sommer supported Mr Bracewell, saying the authority had no issues with the seven other Convair aircraft in New Zealand which would remain in operation, saying they were "very well suited to their purpose".
Stockmarket newcomer Freightways said the commercial cost of the tragedy to the group was immaterial and "insignificant in comparison to the lives of our missing crew".
The group said contingency plans had been put in place to help return normal services.
"This tragedy will, however, weigh heavily on the Freightways team," it said. "The safety of our people continues to be our highest priority throughout all our operations."
Freightways encompasses well-known brands including Post Haste Couriers, Sub 60 messengers, and Parceline Express.
=======================================
Plane crash area known for icing
07 October 2003
By PAUL GORMAN
Severe aircraft icing could have been a major factor in the crash of the Air Freight NZ Convair somewhere off the Kapiti coast.
An aviation weather forecaster revealed yesterday that the area is known by pilots as a black spot for aircraft icing, particularly in conditions such as those which battered the west of the North Island on Friday.
Damaging turbulence and lightning strikes are now thought less likely to have been present at the time of the accident, about 9.30pm on Friday.
The Convair 580, on the way from Christchurch to Palmerston North and piloted by Barry Cowley, of Kaiapoi, and Paul Miller, of Thames, appears to have been flying through the worst of the storm system about the time that torrential rain was turning parts of the Kapiti coast into a disaster area.
Six years ago, just on the other side of Paraparaumu, icing was discovered as a significant cause in the crash of a United Aviation freight flight, in which pilot Timothy Thompson was killed.
Freightways managing director Dean Bracewell told The Press the missing pilots were "two very experienced operators" who would not have taken any chances on flying if they considered the weather was too dangerous.
The MetService would not comment on the specific incident because of the air accident investigation. But operations manager James Travers said conditions might have been conducive to icing in the area.
Severe weather warnings had been issued for high winds and heavy rain throughout much of the country on Friday. Warnings were also issued for pilots by aviation forecasters, predicting possible aircraft icing and severe turbulence across the North Island, and these were in force during the evening.
There was at least one observation of severe turbulence that day, Mr Travers said. Major turbulence was reported by an aircraft pilot flying about 6000m south of Auckland in the late afternoon.
Despite earlier reports that lightning could have played a part in the accident, he said it did not seem there was significant electrical activity in the clouds over the area.
Icing could have been present. Its formation in that area would have resulted from high moisture levels in mild northerly airflows and uplift near the Tararua Ranges, the same conditions that could have led to heavy rain along the coast.
"There is the possibility that around the Otaki area particularly, icing can be particularly bad in moist northerly flows. It can be difficult (flying there) in icing conditions."
MetService weather ambassador Bob McDavitt called Friday's weather "abysmal".
The intensity of the storm along the coast was reflected in the extreme rainfall. The service usually described heavy rain as more than 5mm an hour, but up to 25mm was falling each hour in Paekakariki and Waikanae.
Mr Bracewell said up-to-date weather information for the flight to Palmerston North would have been provided to the pilots before leaving Christchurch, and updated during the flight.
"It's a very procedural business, planning a journey. If they had known of anything untoward with the aircraft or the conditions, they would not have taken off."
The ultimate decision on whether to make the flight or cancel was always the pilot's to make.
There was nothing unusual in making two return trips to Palmerston North in an evening's work, Mr Bracewell said.
The crash of the United Aviation flight in June 1997, two months before the airline went into receivership, was a result of icing and inadequate safety procedures, Wellington Coroner Garry Evans said in December last year.
============================================
NZPA
Firm stands by air safety procedures
07 October 2003
By COLLEEN SIMPSON
Freightways managing director Dean Bracewell said yesterday that Air Freight's safety record was highly regarded within aviation circles.
The only other accident on its record occurred in 1989 when three people were killed after a Convair 580 operated by Air Freight crashed at Auckland Airport, hitting an embankment soon after take-off.
In June this year, a Convair 580 got lost while en route to its new owner Fieldair, another business owned by Freightways, after navigational equipment was programmed incorrectly.
The cargo plane narrowly avoided running out of fuel and being forced to ditch in the sea after being safely guided back on course by an American military flight.
Mr Bracewell said Air Freight NZ maintained all its cargo aircraft in line with a regular timetable to comply with both internal and Civil Aviation Authority standards.
He said there were no concerns about the company's Convair fleet before the accident.
"If there were any, the pilots would have expressed them and the CAA audit would have shown them up and action would have been taken," he said. The focus now would be on the families involved and finding what caused the crash.
CAA communications manager Bill Sommer supported Mr Bracewell, saying the authority had no issues with the seven other Convair aircraft in New Zealand which would remain in operation, saying they were "very well suited to their purpose".
Stockmarket newcomer Freightways said the commercial cost of the tragedy to the group was immaterial and "insignificant in comparison to the lives of our missing crew".
The group said contingency plans had been put in place to help return normal services.
"This tragedy will, however, weigh heavily on the Freightways team," it said. "The safety of our people continues to be our highest priority throughout all our operations."
Freightways encompasses well-known brands including Post Haste Couriers, Sub 60 messengers, and Parceline Express.
=======================================