G'day mates.
Ocker
Back in the days when truck drivers had to reverse park their semi-trailers the pay wasn't too bad. Bit of skill to the job.
You have obviously noted the deterioration of skill level in the airlining vocation too. Virgin and QF Domestic wallow around restricted to 250kts and "power on" descents the computer's fault.
Should have kept as much skill in the job as possible. Cadet programmes and little value on experience a catalyst in the erosion of conditions. Just an observation.
The market could strike back. 6% airline growth etc. Probably not in Oceana though-Virgin Blue, Jetconnect, Freedom and now more cheap, white professionals courtesy Pacific Blue.
QF pilots are very overpaid in terms of the Oceana market. Intersting to see how smart they become.
Ocka. What do you think of uniforms? Do you like the smart looking QF uniform or the boy from the bush look at VB?
Back in the days when truck drivers had to reverse park their semi-trailers the pay wasn't too bad. Bit of skill to the job.
You have obviously noted the deterioration of skill level in the airlining vocation too. Virgin and QF Domestic wallow around restricted to 250kts and "power on" descents the computer's fault.
Should have kept as much skill in the job as possible. Cadet programmes and little value on experience a catalyst in the erosion of conditions. Just an observation.
The market could strike back. 6% airline growth etc. Probably not in Oceana though-Virgin Blue, Jetconnect, Freedom and now more cheap, white professionals courtesy Pacific Blue.
QF pilots are very overpaid in terms of the Oceana market. Intersting to see how smart they become.
Ocka. What do you think of uniforms? Do you like the smart looking QF uniform or the boy from the bush look at VB?
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No Kap, I'm not 'Ocker', but unlike others who’ve pilloried him for his valuable, if unconventionally expressed insights, I have to agree with the tenor of what he’s saying. (Bseyedz, ave yuh eva tryd ta rite thatw ay? Itzdam neer imposs abull.)
How far away are we from the day when some entrepreneur convinces the regulatory authorities somewhere that it’s safer to employ a computer programmer whose total job description is to monitor the automatics in an airliner with no ‘dangerous human failings-prone’ manual override provided? From there, it’s a short step to a truly unmanned aircraft and we’ll have gone the way of harness salesmen and clipper ship master mariners. (In my other post today on the Bleak Future thread, I used the first moon landing as my example of what would be lost if manual override and maintained pilotage skills were taken away. Closer to home, consider the guaranteed result for all on board (and who knows how many on the ground?) in the Sioux City accident if the automatics were left to handle every imaginable situation. It’s the one in a lifetime unimaginable situations I want a properly trained pilot there to handle.)
The sad fact is, we cost our companies considerable money, and even worse, do so on an ongoing basis. We sometimes get sick, and we can’t be written down or flogged off easily to another, lesser company for a new model the way a computer program or a piece of hardware can, and we can’t run 24 hours a day, 7 days a week without a rest the way a piece of machinery can. But we can be asked to work longer and for less recompense under less favourable working conditions if there are others out there willing to replace us who will work under those conditions.
Decisions made by Australian pilot union leadership, (the worst case by far, in my opinion, being that of the QF pilots separating themselves from the lesser mortals – the domestic pilots and GA operators – back in the early eighties), has accelerated the rot towards the situation where all of us will have to swallow the bitter pill many have already tasted in the last few years. (It’s hard to avoid mentioning the part 1989 played in this steady – and sometimes not so steady – demise, but had all Australian airline pilots been in one unified union then, I believe events would never have reached the stage they did, if only because wiser and more experienced heads might have been available to man the most senior positions in the AFAP at the time.)
How far away are we from the day when some entrepreneur convinces the regulatory authorities somewhere that it’s safer to employ a computer programmer whose total job description is to monitor the automatics in an airliner with no ‘dangerous human failings-prone’ manual override provided? From there, it’s a short step to a truly unmanned aircraft and we’ll have gone the way of harness salesmen and clipper ship master mariners. (In my other post today on the Bleak Future thread, I used the first moon landing as my example of what would be lost if manual override and maintained pilotage skills were taken away. Closer to home, consider the guaranteed result for all on board (and who knows how many on the ground?) in the Sioux City accident if the automatics were left to handle every imaginable situation. It’s the one in a lifetime unimaginable situations I want a properly trained pilot there to handle.)
The sad fact is, we cost our companies considerable money, and even worse, do so on an ongoing basis. We sometimes get sick, and we can’t be written down or flogged off easily to another, lesser company for a new model the way a computer program or a piece of hardware can, and we can’t run 24 hours a day, 7 days a week without a rest the way a piece of machinery can. But we can be asked to work longer and for less recompense under less favourable working conditions if there are others out there willing to replace us who will work under those conditions.
Decisions made by Australian pilot union leadership, (the worst case by far, in my opinion, being that of the QF pilots separating themselves from the lesser mortals – the domestic pilots and GA operators – back in the early eighties), has accelerated the rot towards the situation where all of us will have to swallow the bitter pill many have already tasted in the last few years. (It’s hard to avoid mentioning the part 1989 played in this steady – and sometimes not so steady – demise, but had all Australian airline pilots been in one unified union then, I believe events would never have reached the stage they did, if only because wiser and more experienced heads might have been available to man the most senior positions in the AFAP at the time.)
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Oz ocker....
a few observations on the trend of my wages and the ease of my job...... no argument there....I dont need you to tell me what my pay check looks like! or how easy it is to do my job. I already know.
Let me ask you this though.....do you think I should earn more or less than a trucker or a bussy for hauling the same cargo as them? If I should earn the same then Ill take the pay rise.
Now what exactly is your point?....unless (I say again) wind up!
Still you wont tell us anything about yourself...
a few observations on the trend of my wages and the ease of my job...... no argument there....I dont need you to tell me what my pay check looks like! or how easy it is to do my job. I already know.
Let me ask you this though.....do you think I should earn more or less than a trucker or a bussy for hauling the same cargo as them? If I should earn the same then Ill take the pay rise.
Now what exactly is your point?....unless (I say again) wind up!
Still you wont tell us anything about yourself...
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By crikey soma youse are takin this a bit personal ya know. Like ya sez mjbo, ya can alredy see where pilots saleries ave 'eaded fer the last few years but lotsa ya are still scratchin yer @rses an askin "Why". Then when a bloke trys ta tell youse, ya get all bl00dy uppity bout it.
Mate, id be appy to see youse all earninas much as yer reackon yer worth - aint no skin offa my teeth. An when ya look at aller the money youse ave ad to fork out to get where youse are, an all the trinin and checks an sh!t - well gawd knows, its like ya gotta be some sorta masokist to wanna be a pilot.
But that aint the point. The point is ya job equipment and role is changin. Like that Wiley fella writ, whether ya like it or not, youse are been seen more like computer oprators nowadays.
Some of ya bullsh!t on about engine failures and cr@p but take a look at the 777 fer example - if she blows a donk its all taken care of for ya.
Technology has replaced a LOT of the skills that were once required by youse an so yore all becomin more easily replaceable.
Once upon a time the number a hours ya had flown used ta be the yardstick fer qualifyin fer a position, not no more it aint. Simply cause the maniplative skill required fer the job - them skills ya usta get from hour buildin - aint needed anywhere near as much.
So in the bosses eyes 'es got a lot more pilots available to im than 'es ad in the past.
I aint tryin to wind youse up at all - but some of youse are gettin wound up n angry because ya dont wanna see the reality of whats starin ya in the face.
Ere's a simple question that I wanna ask ALLER youse ta answer truthful...do ya reackon its easier or harder to fly the latest technology airoplane of today (fer example the 777) than the stuff its replaced?
See youse round.
Mate, id be appy to see youse all earninas much as yer reackon yer worth - aint no skin offa my teeth. An when ya look at aller the money youse ave ad to fork out to get where youse are, an all the trinin and checks an sh!t - well gawd knows, its like ya gotta be some sorta masokist to wanna be a pilot.
But that aint the point. The point is ya job equipment and role is changin. Like that Wiley fella writ, whether ya like it or not, youse are been seen more like computer oprators nowadays.
Some of ya bullsh!t on about engine failures and cr@p but take a look at the 777 fer example - if she blows a donk its all taken care of for ya.
Technology has replaced a LOT of the skills that were once required by youse an so yore all becomin more easily replaceable.
Once upon a time the number a hours ya had flown used ta be the yardstick fer qualifyin fer a position, not no more it aint. Simply cause the maniplative skill required fer the job - them skills ya usta get from hour buildin - aint needed anywhere near as much.
So in the bosses eyes 'es got a lot more pilots available to im than 'es ad in the past.
I aint tryin to wind youse up at all - but some of youse are gettin wound up n angry because ya dont wanna see the reality of whats starin ya in the face.
Ere's a simple question that I wanna ask ALLER youse ta answer truthful...do ya reackon its easier or harder to fly the latest technology airoplane of today (fer example the 777) than the stuff its replaced?
See youse round.
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I don't why I am biting here OZ, but here goes.
New Technology aircraft are easier to physically pole around the sky in one major way, that is, if you lose an engine it will automatically add the required rudder.
On the 777 you have also an autothrottle for each engine so you can control engine thrust via the autothrottle. So in those two respects it is easier to fly than say a 767.
Consider this though.
Transistorisation got rid of radio operators.
INS got rid of NAV's.
Computerisation got rid of Flight Engineers.
Yet we still have pilots even though, as you say, aircraft are easier to fly than they were on the good old days.
Why is this?
If you were paid primarily by the skill with which you hand fly a large aircraft around the world, then pay rates should have taken a major drop in the 1950, when more sophisticated auto-pilots became available.
What you don't seem to have grasped is that a pilots skill in physically flying the aircraft is a small part of the package he is being paid for.
I am not going to detail the elements of that package. It's been done to death. Lets just say that the package is usually not innate in a neophyte, and is something that only time and practice will round out in someone. In other words, experience.
That is what airlines pay for, and that is why computers still have decades to go before they replace pilots.
New Technology aircraft are easier to physically pole around the sky in one major way, that is, if you lose an engine it will automatically add the required rudder.
On the 777 you have also an autothrottle for each engine so you can control engine thrust via the autothrottle. So in those two respects it is easier to fly than say a 767.
Consider this though.
Transistorisation got rid of radio operators.
INS got rid of NAV's.
Computerisation got rid of Flight Engineers.
Yet we still have pilots even though, as you say, aircraft are easier to fly than they were on the good old days.
Why is this?
If you were paid primarily by the skill with which you hand fly a large aircraft around the world, then pay rates should have taken a major drop in the 1950, when more sophisticated auto-pilots became available.
What you don't seem to have grasped is that a pilots skill in physically flying the aircraft is a small part of the package he is being paid for.
I am not going to detail the elements of that package. It's been done to death. Lets just say that the package is usually not innate in a neophyte, and is something that only time and practice will round out in someone. In other words, experience.
That is what airlines pay for, and that is why computers still have decades to go before they replace pilots.
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www.rockwellcollins.com.
Virgin Blue taps Rockwell Collins for avionics on 10 new aircraft
CEDAR RAPIDS, Iowa (September 9, 2003) - Rockwell Collins has been selected by Virgin Blue to provide avionics and in-flight entertainment (IFE) equipment for 10 new Boeing 737 aircraft with an option for 40 additional aircraft. Deliveries are scheduled to begin in 2004.
The avionics package selected by Virgin Blue includes Rockwell Collins communication, navigation and surveillance sensors, including the Collins GLU-920 multi-mode receiver (MMR) and Collins WXR-2100 MultiScan weather radar.
The GLU-920 multi-mode receiver (MMR) provides the aircraft's primary position, velocity and time reference and enables precision landing capability. It offers instrument landing system (ILS) capability and high-integrity, satellite-based positioning for navigation and future landing functions, and offers growth to support microwave landing system (MLS) capability.
The MultiScan radar optimizes short- and long-range weather detection at all times without requiring pilot adjustment of the radar tilt control, and alerts flight crews during takeoff and approach of potentially dangerous wind shear. In addition to the new aircraft installations, Virgin Blue will retrofit MultiScan into 27 existing Boeing 737 aircraft, upgrading them from their current Collins weather radar to the WXR-2100.
Other flight deck equipment includes the VHF and HF communication radios as well as traffic alert and collision avoidance systems (TCAS), ADF, VOR, DME, radio altimeters and transponders.
The cabins of the new Virgin Blue Boeing 737s will feature Rockwell Collins' Programmable Audio Video Entertainment System (PAVES™), offering overhead video on 10.4-inch retractable monitors and 24 channels of high-fidelity digital in-seat audio programming. The monitors offer passengers wide viewing angles with crisp and bright picture quality.
Rockwell Collins (NYSE: COL) is a leader in the design, production and support of communications and aviation electronics solutions for government and commercial customers worldwide. Additional information is available at www.rockwellcollins.com.
==========================================
Virgin Blue taps Rockwell Collins for avionics on 10 new aircraft
CEDAR RAPIDS, Iowa (September 9, 2003) - Rockwell Collins has been selected by Virgin Blue to provide avionics and in-flight entertainment (IFE) equipment for 10 new Boeing 737 aircraft with an option for 40 additional aircraft. Deliveries are scheduled to begin in 2004.
The avionics package selected by Virgin Blue includes Rockwell Collins communication, navigation and surveillance sensors, including the Collins GLU-920 multi-mode receiver (MMR) and Collins WXR-2100 MultiScan weather radar.
The GLU-920 multi-mode receiver (MMR) provides the aircraft's primary position, velocity and time reference and enables precision landing capability. It offers instrument landing system (ILS) capability and high-integrity, satellite-based positioning for navigation and future landing functions, and offers growth to support microwave landing system (MLS) capability.
The MultiScan radar optimizes short- and long-range weather detection at all times without requiring pilot adjustment of the radar tilt control, and alerts flight crews during takeoff and approach of potentially dangerous wind shear. In addition to the new aircraft installations, Virgin Blue will retrofit MultiScan into 27 existing Boeing 737 aircraft, upgrading them from their current Collins weather radar to the WXR-2100.
Other flight deck equipment includes the VHF and HF communication radios as well as traffic alert and collision avoidance systems (TCAS), ADF, VOR, DME, radio altimeters and transponders.
The cabins of the new Virgin Blue Boeing 737s will feature Rockwell Collins' Programmable Audio Video Entertainment System (PAVES™), offering overhead video on 10.4-inch retractable monitors and 24 channels of high-fidelity digital in-seat audio programming. The monitors offer passengers wide viewing angles with crisp and bright picture quality.
Rockwell Collins (NYSE: COL) is a leader in the design, production and support of communications and aviation electronics solutions for government and commercial customers worldwide. Additional information is available at www.rockwellcollins.com.
==========================================
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TCoB.....I agree!
the way I see it though, is that I am paid for my decision making also! not my manipulative skills of flying an inherently safe aircraft. Even before the 50's when the automation and reliable jet technology wasn’t available yet, most accidents could be attributable to human factors. (anyone care to dig up those stats...Bik, you know where to find that kind of stuff my friend?)
I think the point Ocker is driving at is something like supply and demand. I too am not oblivious to the commercial realities of today.
However...I would like to think that I have the experience, knowledge base, situational awareness, control, analytical mindset, judgement, leadership, decision making ability, focus, perseverance, attitude, training and maturity that warrants a pay check worthy of a trucker operating a truck worth many millions more if I wad it up, carrying cargo no less expensive to replace in an environment that is far LESS FORGIVING than the Pacific Highway. Not to mention to get my own back side, let alone everyone elses back to terra firma safely, when things do go wrong.
Like you say Ock.....anyone can point the thing where you want it to go! look at those Jackasses back on 11/9/01 with virtually no training. Care to have our old mate Mohammad Skipper your next trip to sunny Brisie? after all he did have all the training he needed (measurable in minutes) to put that technological mammoth just where he wanted!
Just for the record there ocker....those 'masokists' as you refer would be called 'committed' in other circles.
the way I see it though, is that I am paid for my decision making also! not my manipulative skills of flying an inherently safe aircraft. Even before the 50's when the automation and reliable jet technology wasn’t available yet, most accidents could be attributable to human factors. (anyone care to dig up those stats...Bik, you know where to find that kind of stuff my friend?)
I think the point Ocker is driving at is something like supply and demand. I too am not oblivious to the commercial realities of today.
However...I would like to think that I have the experience, knowledge base, situational awareness, control, analytical mindset, judgement, leadership, decision making ability, focus, perseverance, attitude, training and maturity that warrants a pay check worthy of a trucker operating a truck worth many millions more if I wad it up, carrying cargo no less expensive to replace in an environment that is far LESS FORGIVING than the Pacific Highway. Not to mention to get my own back side, let alone everyone elses back to terra firma safely, when things do go wrong.
Like you say Ock.....anyone can point the thing where you want it to go! look at those Jackasses back on 11/9/01 with virtually no training. Care to have our old mate Mohammad Skipper your next trip to sunny Brisie? after all he did have all the training he needed (measurable in minutes) to put that technological mammoth just where he wanted!
Just for the record there ocker....those 'masokists' as you refer would be called 'committed' in other circles.
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Yep, this (immediately above) and what The_Cutest_of_Borg has written is what I was trying to say in my first post, but couldn't quite word it as well, and hence became the laughing stock of the forum. Yipee!
It's when the chips are down that it is nothing shy of essential to have an appropriately trained and qualified crew there, of course.
520.
It's when the chips are down that it is nothing shy of essential to have an appropriately trained and qualified crew there, of course.
520.
And I thought Management had no sense of Humour!
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Ahaa, at long bl00dy last it seems like theres some sensible discussion comin from some of youse willin to scratch the surface a bit.
So now that the techies ave taken away the arguement fer havin the pilot there ta take care a engine failures, lets talk a bit about the decision makin bit.
Lets say, fer example, yer weather radar shows a big storm ahead. Then you can argue that yave gotta go around the big bludger - one of them "decisions" that only the pilot can decide. But I reckon the day cant be too far orf that once the autamatics pick up that storm on the radar then itll automaticly steer clear of it..
Yeah blokes, this "decision makin" s grand arguement, but its not somethin that you can prove to a boss thats lookin at hirin. Is it.
Ya could say that aviation is at the "cuttin edge" of technology an the fastest advances are bein made with airoplanes an will continue to be. mebbe not to necissaraly get ridda the pilots, but thats what the R an D people are payed ta do - aint it?
An Id bet me shirt sleevs that when the first pilot-less airoplane arrives on the sceen there wont be no shortage of idiots willin to take their seat fer the first ride.
I reckon youse are gunna see pilot trainin reduced in the future, simpley cos the skills aint gunna be needed. An from the bosses pointa view, whay are ya gunna pay for somethin that ya dont need?
Its happnin now - ya still dont takke along a navigata (no relation to an alligata) jus cos ya navigation equipment might fall over in an eap.
Anyways its the week end. Im orf to the pub.
See youse round.
So now that the techies ave taken away the arguement fer havin the pilot there ta take care a engine failures, lets talk a bit about the decision makin bit.
Lets say, fer example, yer weather radar shows a big storm ahead. Then you can argue that yave gotta go around the big bludger - one of them "decisions" that only the pilot can decide. But I reckon the day cant be too far orf that once the autamatics pick up that storm on the radar then itll automaticly steer clear of it..
Yeah blokes, this "decision makin" s grand arguement, but its not somethin that you can prove to a boss thats lookin at hirin. Is it.
Ya could say that aviation is at the "cuttin edge" of technology an the fastest advances are bein made with airoplanes an will continue to be. mebbe not to necissaraly get ridda the pilots, but thats what the R an D people are payed ta do - aint it?
An Id bet me shirt sleevs that when the first pilot-less airoplane arrives on the sceen there wont be no shortage of idiots willin to take their seat fer the first ride.
I reckon youse are gunna see pilot trainin reduced in the future, simpley cos the skills aint gunna be needed. An from the bosses pointa view, whay are ya gunna pay for somethin that ya dont need?
Its happnin now - ya still dont takke along a navigata (no relation to an alligata) jus cos ya navigation equipment might fall over in an eap.
Anyways its the week end. Im orf to the pub.
See youse round.
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I wonder if it's worthwhile considering the sort of legal advice that has been provided to airline CEOs? This may or may not be germane to the whole issue. It seems to me that "the boss" will do whatever he (or she) can to save money, but with the proviso that it's not likely to end them up with crippling law suits etc.
I feel sure that they will all want to embrace the so-called "pilotless aeroplane" concept, as a way to save significant sums of money. But they need to consider the issue of public confidence first and, then, public liability - for the time when the technology might all turn to worms, killing... what... 400 people? 800 people? More?
Pick up just about any book of fictitious action/drama and you'll find that many authors have already postulated the effects of EMP on airline aircraft. Whether or not those effects are real, one would have to think that the risk is magnified these days by terrorism and the so-called war against terrorism.
I don't want to sidetrack this debate down that particular path. I merely use it as an example of the potentially ruinous public liability claims that could arise after implementation of airline aircraft that fly by themselves. I'm aware that the possible effects of EMP might well be beyond the control of even the most skilled aircrew and so maybe the airline CEOs see it the same way. Thus, whatever legal advice might have been given to them might help us to determine the liklihood of the system going the way that Oz Ocker suggests.
Any legal eagles out there have any thoughts on this?
I feel sure that they will all want to embrace the so-called "pilotless aeroplane" concept, as a way to save significant sums of money. But they need to consider the issue of public confidence first and, then, public liability - for the time when the technology might all turn to worms, killing... what... 400 people? 800 people? More?
Pick up just about any book of fictitious action/drama and you'll find that many authors have already postulated the effects of EMP on airline aircraft. Whether or not those effects are real, one would have to think that the risk is magnified these days by terrorism and the so-called war against terrorism.
I don't want to sidetrack this debate down that particular path. I merely use it as an example of the potentially ruinous public liability claims that could arise after implementation of airline aircraft that fly by themselves. I'm aware that the possible effects of EMP might well be beyond the control of even the most skilled aircrew and so maybe the airline CEOs see it the same way. Thus, whatever legal advice might have been given to them might help us to determine the liklihood of the system going the way that Oz Ocker suggests.
Any legal eagles out there have any thoughts on this?
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Mes mate Oz Ocker,
Mate, mes gotz sum Enklish homeworrk duoo dis weak and mes waz wundring if yous kood hellp me out bi chans?
Mayb if I's waz 2 drop bi da pub, wen yous iz not 2 bzy we kood sit down and doo it ova a coupla kwiet ones?
Only if yous is not 2 bzy m8. its juzt dat I's iz relly struglin wif da hole koncept of dis Enklish langwedge and yous looxs like yous iz a wiz, so mes was finkin yous koold help me out, coz wen I's growws up, mes wants 2 bkum a pilot or sumfin like dat. Yous woodn't be a kareer adviza bi chance?
Mezzarge me wen yous wants to katch up.
Chears & beerz,
Souls.
[I's wood edart dis 4 da ti-ping erraz and stuuff, but like I's sed, mes not 2 good @ da whole 'Enklish' fing yet. ]
Mate, mes gotz sum Enklish homeworrk duoo dis weak and mes waz wundring if yous kood hellp me out bi chans?
Mayb if I's waz 2 drop bi da pub, wen yous iz not 2 bzy we kood sit down and doo it ova a coupla kwiet ones?
Only if yous is not 2 bzy m8. its juzt dat I's iz relly struglin wif da hole koncept of dis Enklish langwedge and yous looxs like yous iz a wiz, so mes was finkin yous koold help me out, coz wen I's growws up, mes wants 2 bkum a pilot or sumfin like dat. Yous woodn't be a kareer adviza bi chance?
Mezzarge me wen yous wants to katch up.
Chears & beerz,
Souls.
[I's wood edart dis 4 da ti-ping erraz and stuuff, but like I's sed, mes not 2 good @ da whole 'Enklish' fing yet.
]
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"A rose by any other name" - well youse know the resta that one I reckon.
Anyways aint it kinda funny that some-one else as decided ta start another postinn talkin bout the same sorta thing. Im referrin to Col Walter E. Kurtzs thing about pilot saleries an conditions.
Same orse, diffrent colour.
Ya take the p!ss outta me spellin all youse like, trubble is a course ya cant look past it to see what the real issues are. Whadda they say about the forest an the trees?
So whos the REAL dummies ere?
See youse round.
Anyways aint it kinda funny that some-one else as decided ta start another postinn talkin bout the same sorta thing. Im referrin to Col Walter E. Kurtzs thing about pilot saleries an conditions.
Same orse, diffrent colour.
Ya take the p!ss outta me spellin all youse like, trubble is a course ya cant look past it to see what the real issues are. Whadda they say about the forest an the trees?
So whos the REAL dummies ere?
See youse round.
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What the fark yer on about, "another cowardly disguise". I'll punch ya friggin lights out if ya like an see ow "cowardly" ya reackon I am then thickead!
But fer the infermation yer 100% wrong pal.
Now try stickin ta the bl00dy topic an add some INTELLIGENT inputs ya wacker.
While the airoplane is spinnin outta control, some a youse are to worried which ones havin the chicken instead a the beef.
But fer the infermation yer 100% wrong pal.
Now try stickin ta the bl00dy topic an add some INTELLIGENT inputs ya wacker.
While the airoplane is spinnin outta control, some a youse are to worried which ones havin the chicken instead a the beef.
