What the Hell's going on at Virgin Blue?
Easy on the Kiwis
I accept that the Kiwis will be offered these jobs with Pacific Blue first, however in fairness to them, just because the wage structure in many NZ industries is lower than OZ does not necessarily mean that they will be doing it tougher.
If for example the cost of living is ten percent lower and the wages are ten percent lower, then if I were a Kiwi I would see no problem at all. Unfortunately/fortunately, I am not in a position to comment on either.
Obviously, there is cause for concern when one pilot after another ultimately gets paid less for "making it in to the BIG time.......?" and from what I have read on PPRuNE Jet connect may well be more than cause for concern, however I do not believe there would be any wage (I would like to think salary) structure out yet.
Perhaps it is not time to get excited just yet. As Steve Liebman says "Be alert but not alarmed'
Ultimately, each airline will pay the price for crappy pay. Given; pilots may provide their own funding on endorsements but you cannot replace experienced crew easily, in house training beyond endorsement and check to line is time consuming and expensive and if the turnover remains high any statistician would surely agree that the likelihood for a hull loss will increase.
People will always be happy to purchase low cost tickets, however I have never heard anyone up the back of a jet on a dark and stormy night complaining that the guy up the front gets too much money....
If for example the cost of living is ten percent lower and the wages are ten percent lower, then if I were a Kiwi I would see no problem at all. Unfortunately/fortunately, I am not in a position to comment on either.
Obviously, there is cause for concern when one pilot after another ultimately gets paid less for "making it in to the BIG time.......?" and from what I have read on PPRuNE Jet connect may well be more than cause for concern, however I do not believe there would be any wage (I would like to think salary) structure out yet.
Perhaps it is not time to get excited just yet. As Steve Liebman says "Be alert but not alarmed'
Ultimately, each airline will pay the price for crappy pay. Given; pilots may provide their own funding on endorsements but you cannot replace experienced crew easily, in house training beyond endorsement and check to line is time consuming and expensive and if the turnover remains high any statistician would surely agree that the likelihood for a hull loss will increase.
People will always be happy to purchase low cost tickets, however I have never heard anyone up the back of a jet on a dark and stormy night complaining that the guy up the front gets too much money....
What I said may have been harsh, a little over the top but........
If the Kiwi pilots, FA's, ground crew etc worked for exactly the same pay and conditions as their Australian counterparts then all things considered the "cost" structure would be identical. Landing fees would be the same, aircraft leasing and operation the same, fuel, the list goes on and on. The only difference is crewing costs.
Both companies are going to take advantage of the fact that it is simply cheaper labour and use it against their own work force. For Dixon and Godfrey it comes down to the bottom dollar, the more money that they "save" the bigger the bonuses, they couldn't care less about their current employees.
I am all for both companies having a "regional NZ" operation, employing locals to operate within NZ, but to be able to operate Australian domestic as well really stinks. A friend showed me a copy of the "email" what a joke. BG tries to justify the NZ operation because Qantas is doing this and Qantas is doing that and that Vb's current "cost" structure (ie already lower wages etc.) can't even compete........ therefore they need to lower the cost by employing NZ crews on lower wages. Both GM's realised that they simply could not directly reduce wages or take on a large number of unions(Qantas), so they side stepped it altogether and started a new company, completely legal yes, immoral you bet. The sad fact remains that this practice is happening all over the world.
Not many Kiwi (or Australian pilots, FA's etc) are going to say thanks but no thanks to a job, unfotunately both Gm's realise this and are going to use it to their full advantage, especially with the Trans Tasman recognition of rules and regulations etc. I wonder how much the Minister for Transport (Anderson) had to do with all this?
If the Kiwi pilots, FA's, ground crew etc worked for exactly the same pay and conditions as their Australian counterparts then all things considered the "cost" structure would be identical. Landing fees would be the same, aircraft leasing and operation the same, fuel, the list goes on and on. The only difference is crewing costs.
Both companies are going to take advantage of the fact that it is simply cheaper labour and use it against their own work force. For Dixon and Godfrey it comes down to the bottom dollar, the more money that they "save" the bigger the bonuses, they couldn't care less about their current employees.
I am all for both companies having a "regional NZ" operation, employing locals to operate within NZ, but to be able to operate Australian domestic as well really stinks. A friend showed me a copy of the "email" what a joke. BG tries to justify the NZ operation because Qantas is doing this and Qantas is doing that and that Vb's current "cost" structure (ie already lower wages etc.) can't even compete........ therefore they need to lower the cost by employing NZ crews on lower wages. Both GM's realised that they simply could not directly reduce wages or take on a large number of unions(Qantas), so they side stepped it altogether and started a new company, completely legal yes, immoral you bet. The sad fact remains that this practice is happening all over the world.
Not many Kiwi (or Australian pilots, FA's etc) are going to say thanks but no thanks to a job, unfotunately both Gm's realise this and are going to use it to their full advantage, especially with the Trans Tasman recognition of rules and regulations etc. I wonder how much the Minister for Transport (Anderson) had to do with all this?
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Remember what a scab was in your schooldays? A scab was another child who bludged off you. Playlunch etc. Quite common.
Has any organisation (ie not management) done an analysis of how the "relative" pay rates compare taking into account the cost of living differences between Oz and UnZud and comparing to how those wages sit compared to other professions? (like teachers, nurses, doctors - not because they are simila to pilots in skillset but they are easily identifiable groups that translate well between the 2 countries)
Talking to Kiwi mates they freely acknowledge that the wages are higher over here, but that taxation hits those wages harder over here as well, not just directly, but with the stamp duties etc as well.
But there seems to be a lot of blame going on the Kiwis for this, the GMs are the one setting up this operation.
And Jetconnect is different to Virgin, Jetconnect was set up after the Qantas NZ franchise went down the gurgler, it just so happens that now it's being used as leverage (although most of us would argue that things don't "just happen" at the Rat).
The comparison is easy Pimp Daddy.
Just look at how many New Zealanders are in Australia. And for that matter, the rest of the world.
It can't be that flash over there.
The "relative"s are all over the place.
halas
Just look at how many New Zealanders are in Australia. And for that matter, the rest of the world.
It can't be that flash over there.
The "relative"s are all over the place.
halas
Cruze and Pimp
From the perspective of an Australian get the feeling the Virgin Group does little but take and rape.
Now the honeymoon period is over, expansion slowing, staff of Virgin Blue may get the similar feelings. The expansion going to English pilots and New Zealanders. Those rough reds Sir Richard sends for staff Xmas presents should be truely unpalatable now!
Very little investment in staff by the Virgin Group. Too expensive and no reciprocal loyalty. A shame really, wide body expansion would offer good career path and morale, building up another viable Australian International airline.
I hope the government forces the issue. The Virgin Group should invest in this country regarding an international arm. So hopefully, Virgin Atlantic is blocked on the Hong Kong-Sydney linkup and the rights go to QF,CX,Dragonair and a hint of availablity to an Australian based international arm of Virgin Blue.
The Virgin Group has no rightful business on this route and hopefully respective governments will make sense of this.
From the perspective of an Australian get the feeling the Virgin Group does little but take and rape.
Now the honeymoon period is over, expansion slowing, staff of Virgin Blue may get the similar feelings. The expansion going to English pilots and New Zealanders. Those rough reds Sir Richard sends for staff Xmas presents should be truely unpalatable now!
Very little investment in staff by the Virgin Group. Too expensive and no reciprocal loyalty. A shame really, wide body expansion would offer good career path and morale, building up another viable Australian International airline.
I hope the government forces the issue. The Virgin Group should invest in this country regarding an international arm. So hopefully, Virgin Atlantic is blocked on the Hong Kong-Sydney linkup and the rights go to QF,CX,Dragonair and a hint of availablity to an Australian based international arm of Virgin Blue.
The Virgin Group has no rightful business on this route and hopefully respective governments will make sense of this.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Inch by inch, this thread, the other one by Slim Dusty - the name escapes me at the moment, Wiley's "Blue Singlets and thongs" and A bleak future for Aviation?" for the Rumours & News forum are coalescing towads the same finale.
Below is a post that I have just contributed on the R & N thread, however additionally as an observation because it was raised here, the scabs helped the airline companies (and the Government) in Australia remove one of their major hurdles wrt salary reduction. The AFAP - the main pilots' union.
AIPA is now, and will - IMO - come under ever-increasing pressure, along with the ACTU/TWU.
Anyway here's my opinion on things:
"There's also a thread running on the D & G forum along similar lines to this one, interestingly enough.
Perhaps as the thread starter there, Oz Ocker, has suggested in his latest post, on major contributing factor to the reason for pilots' salaries going the way they are, is because of the "Global Village" in which we all now supposedly reside.
The work that was once the domain of only white Anglo-Saxons is now extended to just about every race world-wide.
I am not basing my thoughts on racism, but on the REALITY of the situation - so no abuse please.
As we are well aware, pilots salaries varied markedly until the last 10 or 15 years. Pilots in Western countries were paid reasonably good salaries, achieved by their united (unionised) efforts, whereas pilots in developing countries took what they were dished out - but in general enjoyed salaries higher than than average, in their own countries
Pilots from Eastern Europe made some impact on salaries in many parts of the world as they migrated - for them a BIG salary increase, but for incumbent pilots it meant a substantial drop in earnings to compete.
Technology of new aircraft means that traditionally required skills of pilots, and training time required to learn new aircraft have been lessened. And so - for example - China now has thousands of pilots flying the SAME aircraft types as are flown in Western countries for around 1/10th of the pay.
The employers are well aware of this and would replace ALL of us today if that were possible, I'm sure.
One of the biggest obstacles that stands in their way are the unions, which is why we are constantly seeing them chipped away and busted.
Labour laws in many countries have been dramatically changed over the past decade or so, facilitating the influx of cheaper foreign labour as airlines of Western countries try to compete against former Eastern European and Asian airlines operating on a far lesser labour cost base. As these airlines grow, the Western world's companies - and their employees - will come under even further pressure to trim down their costs, or alternatively go bust.
The money that non-Western airlines must be stashing away in profits for future expansion must be phenomenal, and a worry to Western world companies.
IMHO, that is the reality of the situation - the future for ALL airline employees, in the west, will be lower wages until the situation stabilises, and increasing salaries for employees of the up-and-coming airlines in the developing countries.
I've had my differences with Carruthers before, however he also speaks a lot of truth - although we mightn't like hearing it."
Below is a post that I have just contributed on the R & N thread, however additionally as an observation because it was raised here, the scabs helped the airline companies (and the Government) in Australia remove one of their major hurdles wrt salary reduction. The AFAP - the main pilots' union.
AIPA is now, and will - IMO - come under ever-increasing pressure, along with the ACTU/TWU.
Anyway here's my opinion on things:
"There's also a thread running on the D & G forum along similar lines to this one, interestingly enough.
Perhaps as the thread starter there, Oz Ocker, has suggested in his latest post, on major contributing factor to the reason for pilots' salaries going the way they are, is because of the "Global Village" in which we all now supposedly reside.
The work that was once the domain of only white Anglo-Saxons is now extended to just about every race world-wide.
I am not basing my thoughts on racism, but on the REALITY of the situation - so no abuse please.
As we are well aware, pilots salaries varied markedly until the last 10 or 15 years. Pilots in Western countries were paid reasonably good salaries, achieved by their united (unionised) efforts, whereas pilots in developing countries took what they were dished out - but in general enjoyed salaries higher than than average, in their own countries
Pilots from Eastern Europe made some impact on salaries in many parts of the world as they migrated - for them a BIG salary increase, but for incumbent pilots it meant a substantial drop in earnings to compete.
Technology of new aircraft means that traditionally required skills of pilots, and training time required to learn new aircraft have been lessened. And so - for example - China now has thousands of pilots flying the SAME aircraft types as are flown in Western countries for around 1/10th of the pay.
The employers are well aware of this and would replace ALL of us today if that were possible, I'm sure.
One of the biggest obstacles that stands in their way are the unions, which is why we are constantly seeing them chipped away and busted.
Labour laws in many countries have been dramatically changed over the past decade or so, facilitating the influx of cheaper foreign labour as airlines of Western countries try to compete against former Eastern European and Asian airlines operating on a far lesser labour cost base. As these airlines grow, the Western world's companies - and their employees - will come under even further pressure to trim down their costs, or alternatively go bust.
The money that non-Western airlines must be stashing away in profits for future expansion must be phenomenal, and a worry to Western world companies.
IMHO, that is the reality of the situation - the future for ALL airline employees, in the west, will be lower wages until the situation stabilises, and increasing salaries for employees of the up-and-coming airlines in the developing countries.
I've had my differences with Carruthers before, however he also speaks a lot of truth - although we mightn't like hearing it."
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www.virginblue.com.au
Agreement between shareholders paves way for Virgin Blue IPO
Virgin Blue is pleased to confirm that the company’s two major shareholders, Virgin Group and Patrick Corporation, have reached agreement regarding a restructured shareholders agreement, including terms for the company’s planned initial public offering (IPO).
Under the terms of the revised shareholders agreement:
Patrick Corporation will pay to Virgin Group A$240 million, with no further consideration required with respect to its current shareholding. This removes the escalator clause which was part of the previous shareholder agreement and which required that a further consideration was payable dependent upon the performance and valuation of the company.
The shareholders have agreed to the issuance of new equity capital to a value of A$400 million to facilitate the IPO.
“This restructured shareholders agreement fully aligns the interests of our two shareholders and paves the way for us to introduce new equity into our business” said Brett Godfrey, Virgin Blue Chief Executive.
“This capital raising when undertaken will give Virgin Blue a healthier balance sheet, greater flexibility in how it funds its growth and will put us in an even stronger position to respond to any aggressive action by our competitors.”
“Virgin Blue is now well established as a major player in the regional aviation sector and we look forward to offering the Australian travelling public an opportunity to participate in our future success.”
Godfrey concluded: “We’re a strong company with a loyal customer base and we’ll choose the best timing for bringing Virgin Blue to market. This may be in calendar 2003 or 2004. A final decision to proceed will be made by the Board based on market conditions and other
considerations.”
===========================================
Agreement between shareholders paves way for Virgin Blue IPO
Virgin Blue is pleased to confirm that the company’s two major shareholders, Virgin Group and Patrick Corporation, have reached agreement regarding a restructured shareholders agreement, including terms for the company’s planned initial public offering (IPO).
Under the terms of the revised shareholders agreement:
Patrick Corporation will pay to Virgin Group A$240 million, with no further consideration required with respect to its current shareholding. This removes the escalator clause which was part of the previous shareholder agreement and which required that a further consideration was payable dependent upon the performance and valuation of the company.
The shareholders have agreed to the issuance of new equity capital to a value of A$400 million to facilitate the IPO.
“This restructured shareholders agreement fully aligns the interests of our two shareholders and paves the way for us to introduce new equity into our business” said Brett Godfrey, Virgin Blue Chief Executive.
“This capital raising when undertaken will give Virgin Blue a healthier balance sheet, greater flexibility in how it funds its growth and will put us in an even stronger position to respond to any aggressive action by our competitors.”
“Virgin Blue is now well established as a major player in the regional aviation sector and we look forward to offering the Australian travelling public an opportunity to participate in our future success.”
Godfrey concluded: “We’re a strong company with a loyal customer base and we’ll choose the best timing for bringing Virgin Blue to market. This may be in calendar 2003 or 2004. A final decision to proceed will be made by the Board based on market conditions and other
considerations.”
===========================================
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And next on the scene come our Arab brothers.......EMIRATES over the wide blue yonder. From Oct Bne - Akl along with the current Syd and Mel sectors. Wide body, F, J and Econ class, classic inflight entertainment systems and stroll off at the other end stuffed with endless food and booze.
MMMMMMM, I wonder which of these the public will choose. ????
MMMMMMM, I wonder which of these the public will choose. ????
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Things must be really bad according to a F/A friend in VB.
Their current recruitment and training is barely keeping up with their rates of resignation.
Low cost may be one thing but flogging the girls/guys into the ground whilst paying them lower wages will always mean expensive training.
A constant turnover of staff with low levels of experience dont help either.
Their current recruitment and training is barely keeping up with their rates of resignation.
Low cost may be one thing but flogging the girls/guys into the ground whilst paying them lower wages will always mean expensive training.
A constant turnover of staff with low levels of experience dont help either.
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How the past repeats itself. The intital post could only refer to one of two people in the organisation.
Truely amazing. I'm surprised that it's taken this long for the crap to flow about enough that it's in the public arena.
Truely amazing. I'm surprised that it's taken this long for the crap to flow about enough that it's in the public arena.
